Are whips or spurs relied on too much when schooling horses?

I am carrying a whip with my horse at the moment and he will get a tap if he gets lazy but it's to remind him he has a job to do. It's only a short stick because carrying a long one still results in a tense horse who runs away from the stick. That's just thanks to whichever numpty before me terrified him of sticks.

I won't be using spurs anytime soon on him and nor will anyone else. I don't know what he will do as when he does listen to you he is very sensitive off your leg so I am not too sure if spurs would cause a take off effect or not. Will find out in due course but it's not necessary to try just yet.
 
I have a horse who was terrified of whips. I always ride with one, never need it, and now he is comfortable with them I can use one as it is intended to be used, as a support and extension. I think your attitude is ridiculous - do you also ban steak knives in case you go beserk and murder everybody?
 
Ernest Doodles said:
At least I had the good sense to recognise that, as far as myself and my mount were concerned, it is far more beneficial to our partnership for me NOT to be carrying a whip. Still took a lot of self discipline to work hard to improve the natural aids to a point that the whip was no longer a 'crutch'.
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To the horse there is little distinction (as in one is better than the other) between cues given with human leg/hand/seat or cues given with a whip/spur, as long as there is no punishment involved (although a human leg/hand could probably be just as abusive as a whip), it is just about training the horse to understand the particular cue. They don't think of one as 'natural' and one as 'artificial' or one as better than the other. We should be aiming for the horse to react to the subtlest of cues, whatever they are, be those cues given with your body parts or cues given with a whip/rubber chicken/whatever. Some disabled riders are fantastic riders and ride beautifully with extremely subtle cues using whips as aids due to lack of certain body parts. Not using a whip doesn't make you a better rider/trainer or mean you have a better partnership with your horse, than someone that uses one appropriately when necessary.

Whips are not crutch's they are just different tools to your leg/hand/seat to communicate with the horse.
 
Cortez said:
I have a horse who was terrified of whips. I always ride with one, never need it, and now he is comfortable with them I can use one as it is intended to be used, as a support and extension. I think your attitude is ridiculous - do you also ban steak knives in case you go beserk and murder everybody?
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Are you referring to me there? If you are you will have noticed that I said I do carry a short whip with my horse and use it if he needs a reminder. I don't carry a long one yet because he can still have moments where he is scared of the short one and as he is scared of the long one I won't use the long one until he is fine with the short one. I don't really see how that is a ridiculous attitude.
 
FlashyP said:
To the horse there is little distinction (as in one is better than the other) between cues given with human leg/hand/seat or cues given with a whip/spur, as long as there is no punishment involved (although a human leg/hand could probably be just as abusive as a whip), it is just about training the horse to understand the particular cue. They don't think of one as 'natural' and one as 'artificial' or one as better than the other.
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one of the most sensible posts on here! :)
 
rachk89 said:
Are you referring to me there? If you are you will have noticed that I said I do carry a short whip with my horse and use it if he needs a reminder. I don't carry a long one yet because he can still have moments where he is scared of the short one and as he is scared of the long one I won't use the long one until he is fine with the short one. I don't really see how that is a ridiculous attitude.
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No, not you. I was referring to the OP.
 
If you have to have whip/spurs to ride a horse, then you really have to think about your skill set - you are failing not the horse. You just haven't explained its job to it systematically and clearly.

I have no problem with carrying a stick/wearing spurs - just as I should be able to carry an open umbrella, radio, dog, small child, whatever I need to do, but they shouldn't be a necessity. If you have to use a whip/spur consistently then you have a problem you will only resolve by finding a different training method.
 
canteron said:
If you have to have whip/spurs to ride a horse, then you really have to think about your skill set - you are failing not the horse. You just haven't explained its job to it systematically and clearly.

I have no problem with carrying a stick/wearing spurs - just as I should be able to carry an open umbrella, radio, dog, small child, whatever I need to do, but they shouldn't be a necessity. If you have to use a whip/spur consistently then you have a problem you will only resolve by finding a different training method.
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Exactly :)
 
canteron said:
If you have to have whip/spurs to ride a horse, then you really have to think about your skill set - you are failing not the horse. You just haven't explained its job to it systematically and clearly.

I have no problem with carrying a stick/wearing spurs - just as I should be able to carry an open umbrella, radio, dog, small child, whatever I need to do, but they shouldn't be a necessity. If you have to use a whip/spur consistently then you have a problem you will only resolve by finding a different training method.
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I don't think you'll find anyone to argue with you, it's what we all aim to do.
 
Used correctly I see no issue.

A whip and spurs can be great "refiners" of aids, they can help you give lighter more precise aids. They can also be instruments of pain in the wrong hands or on the wrong legs.

Like all of these horsey gadgets they are not a quick fix, they aren't a punishment they are refinement and you need to know how to use them.

I remember Carl Hester in one of his Demo's talking about people who use a whip to aid in their horse going forwards, you could always tell who they are as once they hit a certain level at dressage they can no longer bring a whip into their dressage test, they came out with bright red faces!

I am a huge believe in learning to ride without a whip and spurs in order to be able to ride with.

I personally have no issue with them.
 
I noticed last time I went eventing that everyone else carried one!
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I would not event without one. There are times on the approach to a fence, and especially in doubles or related fences, when a momentary lack of attention by the horse could cause a fatal fall. At that point, moving your legs for a leg aid might put you in the wrong balance for the jump, or not result in a quick enough reaction from either your legs or the horse to put things right. At times like that, I would always want to be able to slap the horse down the shoulder to refocus it and send it forwards more strongly. Stewards commented on my cavesson noseband, snaffle and lack of martingale, I don't use stuff for no reason. But I always carried a whip.
 
absolutely agree with ycbm. i would never, ever, ever, event without one. If you are coming into a large fence you can't risk a horse trying to slip a shoulder out and jump incorrectly. Sometimes you need to get their attention back, give them an extra boost or a bit of encouragement if you feel they aren't 100% confident at a fence and just needs an extra nudge.

I can't understand how anyone would risk going without one. What do you do when you need an extra motivation? taking your legs back and kicking leaves you off balance at big fences.

What level do you event to? My eventer loves xc and i'd never use a whip for speed, but he still needs the odd nudge if i feel like im losing a shoulder or he is wavering in front of a fence. I would consider a whip an essential piece of safety equipment going xc.
 
canteron said:
If you have to have whip/spurs to ride a horse, then you really have to think about your skill set - you are failing not the horse. You just haven't explained its job to it systematically and clearly.

I have no problem with carrying a stick/wearing spurs - just as I should be able to carry an open umbrella, radio, dog, small child, whatever I need to do, but they shouldn't be a necessity. If you have to use a whip/spur consistently then you have a problem you will only resolve by finding a different training method.
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I agree 100% in principle and I'm sure the aim of every rider is have a responsive horse that is so off the leg it's a dream to ride.

However in practice when it comes to dead to leg riding school cobs who have been nagged to an inch of their life and wouldn't move if a bomb went off, or stop dead, spin and buck when being worked on their own (absolute dream in group situations) the well timed and correctly used use of a stick makes a heck of a difference to a schooling session...
 
ETS: the horse I have in my mind for my post above - I'm not riding him enough, or in a position to say he needs x,y,z because of the nature of his job, so I can only refresh him a bit. He's a wily one too - the less able you are, the better he goes...
 
I used to always carry a whip because my horse had a tendency to day dream and needed an occasional focusing smack; I don't any more because I have a very alert horse who also happens to be whip-shy.

Generally speaking I regard whips and spurs like many other supposedly harsh pieces of equipment - they should only be used by those who have the skills and intelligence to do so. They have no place being used as a short cut for the idle or impatient.
 
I admire a person who is willing to be analytical of themselves.
I admire a person who is willing to try to change should they feel the current way is causing problems, regardless of whether that problem is actual or in their mind.

It takes guts to turn our backs on what we were taught (comfort zone), in favour of a leap of faith into the unknown (out of the comfort zone).

I used to have a riding instructor who's mantra was:

"gentle of the mind makes gentle of the hands"

This is so true. If the rider is in a happy place in their head, then they relax their body which ultimately has a much more positive effect on the horse and application of the aids. Regardless of whether that happy place means holding a schooling whip or not, if the rider is confident and content then the schooling lesson is much more productive.

OP - I have a few questions:

1. your friend, did she approach you to exercise her horse whilst she was on maternity? Or did you offer?
2. Assuming you would be covering for a few months, was this to be a favour for a friend or was she to pay you?
3. is she aware that you do not school your own horse using schooling whips / spurs and more importantly, the reason you don't?

IMO, if your friend is asking a favour just to save money and she is fully aware that you prefer not to have a whip in hand whilst schooling horses, isn't she being a little disrespectful to you?

Insistence that you hold a whip at all times whilst schooling her horse is nothing short of ordering you to change your ways whilst putting you on a guilt trip at the same time surely?

I think you made the right decision to decline the offer. It's not worth falling out with a friend over. There are plenty of people out there who school horses for a living. She will just have to pay for the privilege.
 
Chantelle R said:
OP - I have a few questions:

1. your friend, did she approach you to exercise her horse whilst she was on maternity? Or did you offer?
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She approached me.

2. Assuming you would be covering for a few months, was this to be a favour for a friend or was she to pay you?
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A freebie favour for a friend - twice weekly, for 6 months or so.

3. is she aware that you do not school your own horse using schooling whips / spurs and more importantly, the reason you don't?
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She's seen me schooling mine often enough but whether it had registered with her that I wasn't carrying a schooling whip I couldn't honestly say.
 
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