Arean Uk BD-frustrating day:

Oh for goodness sake people can this not stop yet? These threads become out of control sometimes.

Fwiw PS has been nothing but polite and considerate on this thread, she has considered opinions and provided most people with answers. NMT is reacting to protect her sister which I think is what the majority of posters on here would do for their siblings.

Were all horsey people, were all passionate about these animals and that passion sometimes comes across a little too strongly. Different opinions are great and make for very interesting discussions and debates but there is such a thing as going to far.

I think we can all agree CS looks in great health and it's obvious PS loves him. PS I would be in the camp of he's a young tricky horse and it's early in the season, see how he gets on with a step down for a few shows to build some confidence or get him out a few more times and see how he goes. If it continues to happen there are some excellent suggestions here to explore. He's looking great and I'm very envious of how you ride :-)
 
black_horse said:
Cobra style - maybe you should work in a pharmacy :D very interesting environment ;)
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I did when I was younger! Only as a sales assistant on a Saturday morning but certainly learnt a lot. Also learnt a lot from being my own portable pharmacy, on too many drugs to mention :rolleyes: Currently a student nurse, I find medicine so fascinating! :D
 
So you're a dispenser black horse? In which case you're aware most drugs have the possibility of increasing liver enzymes since the liver is where most are metabolised! Omeprazole is classified as a P as Zanprol - the OTC brand which is 10mg. All other forms are classified as POM. It is a safe an effective medication recommended by NICE as first line treatment for GORD and certainly more effective than ranitidine for such. If you are a registered technician I would recommend you complete a CPD cycle on the topic as your knowledge isn't entirely accurate
 
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black_horse said:
Oh and NMT, not whoospidaisy, i deal with this medication daily.....they google it and come up with not very good sources.

MIMMS is a guide that all pharmacists adhere too....now back off NMT, you are too big for your boots at times...
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Erm, it's nothing to do with google. Kit is a qualified doctor :rolleyes:
 
Wow. I hope some of you lot have intentional damage to double glazing in your house insurance cover..... Anyone want to heave an atlas stone??

I do think a step back might be positive, but NOT because I think the horse looks over pressured. More because I think for even the most seasoned competitor, going into the ring knowing it is easy, that you have plenty of time and tricks to sort things as they arise, is always of such a benefit now and again.
I would drop back, so that as someone above said, in a schooling session you can abort/ prepare more etc and nothing comes quite so thick and fast. I'm not a dressage person so I wouldn't comment on what level I would drop back to as I wouldn't know!!! But as a jumper, I'd drop 10-20cm in height as a refresher or sweetener. Mainly because I enjoy a day out where you know in theory it's jump able eyes closed!

Best of luck. I know nothing of those drugs, I'm an corticosteroid and analgesic specialist as a day job and know full well not to steer off my knowledge 'patch' ;)

Fascinating thoughts as ever by Tarrsteps, and I think amage ? Forgive me, whoever it was who also commented on some just being sods and bloodline related temperament issues, for want of a better Phrase! I love the TS wisdom of behaviours as expressions not just reaction.
 
Wow what a ridiculous load of waffle this turned into and it sadly takes away from some excellent info and advice contained within this thread. NMT fair play...I don't know I could have held my patience for so long defending a sibling. BH is there anyone you don't pick a fight with?!
PS only other advice I can offer is call your next horse "Easy Target"...sometimes it seems that is what you are on this forum! I still stand by my early thought of perhaps get him out competing more at whatever level YOU feel is appropriate. It only occurred to me after that what can be far more commonly noted in tbs is whether they run better "fresh" or need prep runs. The prep run horses will usually have a cycle of 2-3 runs in a short space of time (assuming appropriate recovery between races before any anti racing people want to really jump on that point) and maybe your fella would suit that system of steam up prep to maintain for a fixed period rather than steam up for each outing.
 
Now the above is a fascinating point.... I know several people have mentioned to taking him out more but I had not made the connection o horses that run fresh or not.....
 
Works that way very much with comp horses, too - some need lots of prep, some are better with almost none, some need easy confidence runs, others need a wake up call before something important.

It's one of those conflicts that can arise in Team selection and training - not every horse is going to need the same prep and this can be tricky within a group all targeting the same comp. Good pros spend quite a bit of time worrying about such management aspects and working out the optimum for a horse before it really matters.
 
Santa_Claus said:
Yes there are 'harsh' marking judges around but a good test will get good scores and to be honest at AM+ level wise the judges are getting to a standard where they will reward a good test accordingly.
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At any level there are harsh judges and generous judges?

elliefiz said:
NMT does her best Rottweiler impression snapping at anyone who doesnt want to say how pretty the horse is and how nice his matchy matchy tack is.
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The only people to mention matchy are: TheoryX1, Moomin1 and yourself...

4faults said:
Fwiw PS has been nothing but polite and considerate on this thread, she has considered opinions and provided most people with answers.
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Yep. There's been some really great answers and very insightful thoughts along the way!

Puppy said:
Erm, it's nothing to do with google. Kit is a qualified doctor :rolleyes:
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Omg lol.

amage said:
Wow what a ridiculous load of waffle this turned into and it sadly takes away from some excellent info and advice contained within this thread. NMT fair play...I don't know I could have held my patience for so long defending a sibling. BH is there anyone you don't pick a fight with?!
PS only other advice I can offer is call your next horse "Easy Target"...sometimes it seems that is what you are on this forum! I still stand by my early thought of perhaps get him out competing more at whatever level YOU feel is appropriate. It only occurred to me after that what can be far more commonly noted in tbs is whether they run better "fresh" or need prep runs. The prep run horses will usually have a cycle of 2-3 runs in a short space of time (assuming appropriate recovery between races before any anti racing people want to really jump on that point) and maybe your fella would suit that system of steam up prep to maintain for a fixed period rather than steam up for each outing.
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Yes, sadly there's a number of posts that have no value - including a number of mine, but they're all posted in humor, whereas I fear a few members are taking this rather more seriously :rolleyes:

Interesting note about the cycle/runs - really do learn something new every day!

TarrSteps said:
Works that way very much with comp horses, too - some need lots of prep, some are better with almost none, some need easy confidence runs, others need a wake up call before something important.
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Makes sense to me - I think Fig will definitely be one that needs confidence runs, he's quite the worrier :o
 
Yes there are harsh judges at every level BUT when a horse is scoring consistent low 60s or even high 50s with the odd 65% score to me that says its a 60% horse which gets the odd higher mark from a generous judge!!

CS though IS NOT a 60% horse which I'm sure you will agree and which he has proved but not at his current level of competition. His 65% + scores are basically all at E and one or two at M. I did quickly look at how the judges scored other competitors on the same day and although yes I didn't see the tests others were getting 65%+ and when looking at their records that was in line with their overall records.

What I'm trying to say is although he is obviously capable of performing the higher movements he is doing so for 6s not 8s. I personally don't understand while eligible for elementary and potentially having a strong chance of qualifying for nationals this is instead bypassed and by preference competing at AM where struggling to scrape a pet plan qualification. PS never seems to me to settle for second best hence I get so confused she chooses mediocre at a high level rather than special at a lower level!

To be honest I'm amused you chose that bit to quote from my original post but then it's was always one for PS to reply to not you, nothing personal but I am referring more to PS's aims within my questions which she is the only one to know truly!

I think it's admirable that you defend your sister but as a kind suggestion the responses made in humour add some suitable smilies as without they do read sarcastically and even rude which you say is not your desire but that is how they read hence people have been snapping back!

I find it sad these posts always degenerate as some excellent advice is normally also given but gets somewhat lost!
 
Santa_Claus said:
Yes there are harsh judges at every level BUT when a horse is scoring consistent low 60s or even high 50s with the odd 65% score to me that says its a 60% horse which gets the odd higher mark from a generous judge!!

CS though IS NOT a 60% horse which I'm sure you will agree and which he has proved but not at his current level of competition. His 65% + scores are basically all at E and one or two at M. I did quickly look at how the judges scored other competitors on the same day and although yes I didn't see the tests others were getting 65%+ and when looking at their records that was in line with their overall records.

What I'm trying to say is although he is obviously capable of performing the higher movements he is doing so for 6s not 8s. I personally don't understand while eligible for elementary and potentially having a strong chance of qualifying for nationals this is instead bypassed and by preference competing at AM where struggling to scrape a pet plan qualification. PS never seems to me to settle for second best hence I get so confused she chooses mediocre at a high level rather than special at a lower level!

To be honest I'm amused you chose that bit to quote from my original post but then it's was always one for PS to reply to not you, nothing personal but I am referring more to PS's aims within my questions which she is the only one to know truly!

I think it's admirable that you defend your sister but as a kind suggestion the responses made in humour add some suitable smilies as without they do read sarcastically and even rude which you say is not your desire but that is how they read hence people have been snapping back!

I find it sad these posts always degenerate as some excellent advice is normally also given but gets somewhat lost!
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No - I was just merely querying your post as IMHO there are harsh and generous judges at all levels. Sorry they read that way, they're not meant to! But fwiw, on a thread like this, if you add a :) after something, it smacks of sarcasm, even if it's not meant to - hence no smilies.

ETS - Thanks for clarifying what you meant, I understand your OP better now!
 
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Chloe..x said:
Kit279 states that omeprazole is not prescription only yet B_H said early its a POM. So which is it?
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Well given that one person is a qualified doctor and the other nothing of the sort, I'd be inclined to say it probably isn't;)

black_horse said:
Might i add, its because of your attitude that people dislike all these types of threads. By all means defend your sister, but tbh, you go too far and make a mockery of it all.
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Well yes, but then your attitude is just the same :confused::confused:

rhino said:
Odd? No, just the usual... :rolleyes: Don't really expect any different to be honest, which is sad as it takes away from the skill and experience of her big sister.
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Agreed. PS has handled this well and seems to have taken on board most of the advice offered. She's taken time to respond to the majority of the suggestions given, even if she wont be following said advice up.

FWIW, This post strikes me as very well thought out and helpful. It is advice that I would follow if I were in the shoes of PS:

Santa_Claus said:
Ok my honest thoughts are that although he may be established at advanced at home from what you tell us he is not getting the scores I would expect from him (harsh judge or not!). I wouldn't be moving up levels BD unless scoring consistently high 60s yes I would school at a higher level at home but not at shows. From your BD record (not hard to work out who you are ;) ) his ' fairly decent' scores last year were at elementary and 1 or 2 at medium, all at AM and Ad are IMHO distinctly average at best and he is not a horse I would call average!

What would I do I hear you ask (or maybe not!)? I would competitively wise return to elementary and possibly bring his home level down a step or two. It may be easy for him but it will build confidence, get those scores and get those regional qualifications he is capable of rather than skipping up levels and scraping petplan qualifications. You have nothing to prove to anyone and no one (who matters!) will care if you return to elementary which he is still more than eligible for! I personally would be far more impressed to see 70%+ at elementary than 60% at AM! I'm not doubting his ability to do an advanced test I do though doubt even without the 'paddies' that he could do one well aka 70%+ at this moment in time.

IMHO although the more complex movements may occupy his brain more I personally question whether he is mentally and physically ready to perform these movements to the required standard in a test situation. You are currently seemingly happy to settle for 63% that's basically mainly 6's (satisfactory) and the odd 7 (fairly good). You don't seem to me to be the type who would day to day settle for 'satisfactory'. You should be aiming for 8s aka good and settling for a few 6s and 7s but ultimately that 70% marker is and should be your aim as that will be the judges confirming that your work is at the very least fairly good if not good throughout. Yes there are 'harsh' marking judges around but a good test will get good scores and to be honest at AM+ level wise the judges are getting to a standard where they will reward a good test accordingly.

So thats my two penneth feel free to ignore me as ultimately I haven't seen more than photos or the odd video (that are a couple years old) and I don't know you or your horse. I can only judge by the facts given. He is capable of brilliance I just think you need to think about the quality first and foremost.

FWIW Fleur had a meltdown as a youngster. She was doing reasonably well for her age as a 4/5yo including age classes SJing even with very limited outings when she had a meltdown. Complete dollies out of pram refusing to go anywhere type one most conveniently on the first day of an expensive 3 days BSJA show! The reason for her meltdown was purely mental, she had been broken too fast in Holland and although more than capable of the work and being trained correctly once in our hands she was not enjoying herself and downed tools saying very bluntly 'no more' and rearing became a regular hobby for her. What did I do? I took her back to basics and allowed her to enjoy her work again, it took longer than most as I lacked money at the time but she ultimately came right I learnt though that although she was more than capable of the higher work I had to take it that bit slower and every so often take a step back to ensure she enjoyed her work. The un-hackable dangerous horse has even become hackable. (we had a very experienced person who specialises in youngsters/problem horses brand her dangerous ;) ) Not saying she is in anyway the same but in the same way there are distinct similarities.

In regard to the ulcer possibility, find yourself a kind female vet appropriately sedate him and get him scoped, that would be my plan of action to get a definitive answer without causing too much stress. Ulcers have many many causes, a very simple one being that as he is mostly kept in during the day that the hayledge (which is highly acidic) he is eating is causing high stomach acid. Of course others include as mentioned stress, infection and many other causes although this is all very presumptuous as they have not been confirmed!
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Sadly I'm not in the shoes of PS and almost certainly couldn't ride even one side of her horse, but anyway, I'm in agreement with the above. :)
*Disclaimer, that was a non sarcastic smiley*
 
Chloe..x said:
Kit279 states that omeprazole is not prescription only yet B_H said early its a POM. So which is it?
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Well, I'm afraid I know who I'd believe on this one. I can check with the pharmacists I know (ETS they may not know of course as one works the orthopaedics ward and the other the renal ward but hey) but I doubt it is required. If Kit says it isn't a POM then I would wager that it isnt :)

And FWIW, plenty of drugs which are unlicensed for horses are prescribed by vets. ACP and Pergolide were two very well known ones (which have now changed of course) but if your horse gets an eye infection you will be prescribed human eyedrops and likewise if your horse needs antihistamine. I still give ACP tabs sometimes (have 'em for the dog). Does this make me irresponsible and morally bereft?
 
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I thought the cascade can only be used if there isn't an existing licenced product though, which isn't the case in this instance (and hence why horses diagnosed with cushings in days gone by can still be prescribed pergolide but new diagnoses have to use prascend).

Whether omeprazole is POM or not for humans really is a bit by the by though when CS is a horse ;) :D
 
NR99 said:
TBF PS has been quite quiet and has responded well. NMT on the other hand .........:rollseyes: appears to be waging a war on many. Odd, no?
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rhino said:
Odd? No, just the usual... :rolleyes: Don't really expect any different to be honest, which is sad as it takes away from the skill and experience of her big sister.
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Exactly. PS has replied well taking on board people's suggestions. Her sister however has taken the thread on a different tangent and has been bitchy to many people, she must be very bored!

PS, shame this has been taken off topic.
 
ester said:
I thought the cascade can only be used if there isn't an existing licenced product though, which isn't the case in this instance (and hence why horses diagnosed with cushings in days gone by can still be prescribed pergolide but new diagnoses have to use prascend).

Whether omeprazole is POM or not for humans really is a bit by the by though when CS is a horse ;) :D
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yes definitely. But that doesn't make it unsafe to use the old one, just naughty! There seems to be the implication that using the version which isn't licensed for horses is somehow more dangerous which I found confusing when it is the same active substance and therefore, essentially, the same thing? :confused:

ETS: no I don't find it confusing. That is overly polite. I find it silly :p
 
blimey oh blinking riley!

what a keruffle, its taken me half an hour to catch up on the bandwagon...............

FWIW theres a huge amount of not reading and assuming on this thread, the horse is NOT stabled all day, is NOT schooling all the PSG moves every day and CAN NOT be turned away and let down completely.

Ive already said i wont be drawn in to the legality of the omeprazole but there, ive said it again, feel free to continue to squabble but it wont make a blind bit of difference.

I also have not dismissed ALL the advise, or said anyone is 100% wrong, so the posts implying that are just rubbish really, just an excuse to have a go, and in no way helpful..........I asked for advise, got it, and am trying some of it already, thinking about some more of it. i dont think i HAVE to try/take all of it unless ive missed a new forum rule................

even if i never bought matchy again, and never ate, i would still not be able to afford GG, do you have any idea how much a month supply is?! Interesting that SC's horse doesnt need it full time, so something to consider for sure, but full time GG is beyond 99% of peoples pockets and i am included in that.

I did admit maybe ordering the omeprazole was hasty, but its en route now so worth trying anyway. I have also said ive spoken to vet (who said they will get him in to scope if the omeprazole makes no diff, to see if he needs antibiotics).

someone suggested eyes-he's having his eyes checked by vet friend on fri, thanks, good suggestion :)

I played with a few things last night, gave him a massgae with the hand held unit and played with curb and poll pads too.......swapped from padded leather to mattes dead sheep poll pad, which also had the effect of snugging the snaffle up half a hole and made the curb chain just half a link tighter too, and he felt very happy and settled. Whether that means anything, well it too early to tell as he is too inconsistant to make assumptions yet, but will keep same tack over weekend and see.

I simply cannot try everything all at once, so some of you may have to be a little bit more patient and wait for me to report back on your particular advice :) but i will try and update on it as much as i can.

I think NMT knew i would find her links funny (same genes, same sense of humour.............)and you have to admit they are no more off topic than some of the rather bizarre replies (TheoryX what ARE you going on about??????????!!!!!!!!)...................she's sticking up for her sister and i would do the same, with just as much force. I guess it easier to shrug it off when its YOU, but when its family, you want to defend them.............if the boot was on the other foot i would defend her to the end, and as someone else has said, i actually think she's done well to keep it this light hearted.

BH-i think it would be best if you just left this thread, ive seen the FB (small world) and the almost frantic, gleeful, spite ,is a bit scary TBH. No logic and no help. D has NOT had some kind of miracle turn around, you posted only recently about her reverting to her old behavior, so im sorry you are not some kind of miraculous horse whisperer.

Whilst dropping down a level might make him less likely to let rip, short term, he is very good at making the comfort zone smaller and smaller and all that would happen would be an explosion the first time i asked for HP/a change/etc in the ring again-we have tried this at home, twice, with the same result. Nicey nicey for weeks when the work is easier, but the minute you up it ,a total "F you". And whilst you could read that as a totally brain fried horse, if you saw it in the flesh, as a few people on here have, you would see it for what it is-a naturally dominant horse trying to take over. Im actually genuinely suprised he did stand up in the first test as he hasnt done that for a long long time, so again-have i made a mountain out of a molehill here, maybe it was a blip?
He's always been inclinded to down tools if you have to stop unexpectedly so the fact he dropped behind me in the second test doesnt really suprise me.


I do actually wonder if stopping competing over winter is wrong and does me/him no favours. I think it takes him longer than my previous horse to peak, and that he prefers to just bubble along with continued consistancy, no peaks or troughs, if that makes sense?
 
Bravo PS for such a dignified post after all the goings on. Good luck with all the experiments and please do update us on progress. CS is such an interesting case it will be fascinating to see which methods have an impact (positive or negative) and will no doubt prove very useful to many people in the future. I really hope that you continue to make good progress with him and you will share it with us on HHO.
 
I have no useful suggestions at all really but just wanted to tell a wee story :)

My old instructors daughter has a very nice, talented horse who could actually be Stars twin in looks as well as behaviour. He was working at the same level, at the same age and behaved in the same way. He was also a bit of a "lazy toad" in general but would suddenly go up in the middle of a half pass or working piri etc, then be back to normal within 5 mins.

Anyway, she moved to California to work for a top rider and took him with her. His behaviour carried on the same, she put it down to him just being him. Kind of got used to it etc. Then last year, (she's owned him at least 7yrs by now), he rolled in the field and was seen to kind of become stuck on his side. When he finally got up, he was holding his head and neck in a strange way and was obviously in a lot of pain so he was rushed to the vet for a scan. What came back was so interesting. The roll had caused a fractured disc at the base of his neck but what they also found was a very old fracture right up at his poll. It had healed obviously without intervention and was squeezing his nerve, probably causing the rearing and freak outs he'd been having for years. They operated I believe and he's now competing GP a much happier horse. It was totally random and something his owner would never have thought to have looked for. So in a way, that roll in the field did him a massive favour.

That's probably of no help what so ever but just thought it really interesting!
 
The consistency issue is certainly one to consider - it may also not be of any relevance, but my chap is infinitely better if run several times in quick succession then given a break, and takes a good long time to settle to his work on the flat after his end of season holiday. He spent a week convincing chatter1 he'd never been taught to go on the bit ;)

I played about with this a lot when he was CS age - I did things like take him out three weeks in a row and see how he was, take him to 3 day shows, do things on a more regular schedule etc. He is always better if you do things over a short space of time, then give him a break from competing, then do a few weeks again. Maybe with the digestive thing he gets into a groove as it were, maybe I get my eye in more, who knows!

There's no way I could afford GG full time, the way I described managing him came direct from the vet who did a lot of the clinical trials work in the USA and has had input into team GB horses (fwiw team GB have a supply of GG that gets handed out to team horses for big important competitions!).

If you want the name of the vet so your vet could have a chat with him then I'll happily pass it on. It might throw up some new approaches?
 
Amymay - there is no way anyone has enough insurance cover to claim GG for 12 months. I ended up spending my full 5k allowance and putting a grand of my own money into getting the horse right. It took over a year to get him totally sorted, totally wrecked my confidence in the process, and was an utter nightmare.

You'd get less than 25 weeks of GG out of 5k vets fees, and thats not including any scoping etc. scoping is pennies in comparison to GG. Fwiw I was told the risks in scoping horses are much less than in humans. You can scope a horse for less than a weeks GG costs!
 
SpottedCat said:
Amymay - there is no way anyone has enough insurance cover to claim GG for 12 months. I ended up spending my full 5k allowance and putting a grand of my own money into getting the horse right. It took over a year to get him totally sorted, totally wrecked my confidence in the process, and was an utter nightmare.

You'd get less than 25 weeks of GG out of 5k vets fees, and thats not including any scoping etc. scoping is pennies in comparison to GG. Fwiw I was told the risks in scoping horses are much less than in humans. You can scope a horse for less than a weeks GG costs!
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Excuse my ignorance, but how much IS GG? It's not something I've had any experience in, and whilst I knew it was expensive, it's sounding as though the price is horrific! :o
 
Thanks SC-very kind of you :)

vet said to go ahead and try the omeprazole, if no joy, then scope, so if it comes to that i will pm you for more details..............i guess if the omeprazole works, i could manage him in the same way on that, as you do the GG?

have had 4 pm's from people using omeprazole with sucess so do think its worth a shot as a viable alternative.
 
Last time I bought any (last October) it was about £35 a tube. On full dose to cure ulcers you give a tube a day, making it about £250 a week. On maintenance dose (eg for stressful situations) you use quarter of a tube a day so about £70 a week. It is horrific and the sooner the patent runs out and generics hit the market place the better!
 
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