Arean Uk BD-frustrating day:

ester said:
There is a difference though, you know what you feel/what hurts it is rather more speculative when dealing with animals! :)
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Exactly. I was just answering the question posed ;) Whether the question was a good comparison to make in the first place is for everybody to decide individually. Given the more speculative nature of dealing with animals, you could argue for either a more speculative approach to diagnosis, or a more direct route. Depends on the animal in question, circumstances, owner's own personal approach etc. :)
 
I am a bit bemused by the ring pressure suggestion. He is hardly a horse that is over competed and while he has moved up the grades he is a sharp and intelligent personality. I actually wonder would competing him more - perhaps every week for a month - be worth a trial so that he learns when he is in the ring he is on and that is that.
 
A few of my thoughts...

If it is hindgut ulcers I believe they aren't treated by gastroguard etc. but have heard that Succeed can be good for this. Pricey but may be worth a try.

What is your forage feeding pattern like before you work him and at shows? My last horse, before I got him scoped, would be better if I gave him hay before he was tacked up (he had ad-lib but I would still give him extra while I groomed etc.). He was then scoped and found to have ulcers. Apparently an alfa feed before work can be even better as it neutralises the acid. Is there something perhaps in the amount of time he has to hang around between classes that he doesn't get quite as much hay on some show days? Worth testing this out methinks.

In terms of your feeding, have you considered getting his forage/grazing analysed and putting him on a balanced mineral diet? Would help you rule out imbalances in the diet.

I think in terms of it only happening at shows - the whole day is more stressful for them and therefore more likely to produce extra acid so worse ulcer symptoms.

Have you thought of trying a massage pad to use before riding? I wouldn't be without mine and don't get on my horse without using it first as the difference is so huge!

Can you get someone to video you consistently at home and at competitions? This might give you an opportunity to watch the videos back and look for signs that you might not see on the day as it all happens too quickly.
 
He looks lovely, I was actually there and saw your test and his reaction did seem to come out of nowhere.
Like others have said he looks like a very intelligent horse that possibly over reacts to certain things. My own WB decided to have a tantrum at the start of his first test and then proceeded to carry on and finish his test with some really good work and then do his first AM without a hitch and a nice score, some horses just are abit sharp and react to slight things, I know for me it was that I was abit strong with my leg and being a sensitive horse he told me to bugger off.
That's some horses for you.

Like you said onwards and upwards, you are doing a brill job with him.
 
I feed Succeed & maintenance dose of Omprazole for my Ulcer horse. Fwiw we didn't scope this horse as he had come down with colic. It had got to the point I couldn't ride him in the afternoon otherwise he would colic. It had also got to a serious point where I was having to wait for the scoping, so to cut a long story short we went for the Gastrogard route.
My insurance actually covered the whole thing as like they said they would rarther pay for Gastrogard & have a well horse than a horse in for colic surgery.
This was in 2009 & I've now learned to deal with his many gut issues.

If I didn't have the urgency that I was under with my horse I would of definitely gone down the scoping route. I just didn't have the time on my side to do this as we where very worried with the colic.

I would say though that I wouldn't think you would get one behaviour at home & another at shows due to Ulcers. but horses always amaze me.

I think taking the pressure off him though may be a good thing regardless as if he is suffering Ulcers he would do well having a break. If no Ulcers then I think a re-think may be needed anyway.
 
Glad it's not his stiffles! Horrible thing OCD!

Just another thought, could it be his eyes? I remember reading an article about Werth's Satchmo and his very unpredictable behaviour which turned out to be down to an eye problem (membranes were floating in his eye and causing him to spook, once removed he was fine). This may be clutching at straws, but since everyone is throwing ideas out there you never know!
 
Ignoring all the other bits as I have nothing helpful to offer, the good bits look lovely and the naughty bits look like you dealt with them very efficiently.

Hope you get it sorted as well- so frustrating for you both! He almost looks confused/ not sure what he's doing in the naughty photos... Maybe a brain blip when it all got a bit too much and he lost his way a bit? So when you then pushed him forwards he was given a really clear instruction and he could get himself back on track?
 
Just to add into the mix, I have a New Forest pony mare, she's only 13.3 and as beautiful/sensitive/docile/dependable as they come etc etc etc, can trust her with your life..... But and it's a big BUT, sometimes she rears...... for no apparent reason whatsoever and they literally come out of no-where, i.e. standing with the other kids at PC quietly one second and waving front legs in the air the next, back down and standing quietly again as if nothing were amiss. Or standing in the line up at a show, up/down and back to sleep....She doesn't move any other muscle aside from her front legs to go up bolt upright and come back down..............

I've had her 8yrs now and she probably only rears once/twice a yr now if that however when i got her she reared a whole lot more with a lot more expression and also some warning - LOL........ I am positive hers is an inability to contain and then express herself, perhaps excitement/nerves I don't know but it seems to be her way of letting it out and once it's done she's back to her usual dependable self.

Her rears have never intended to get you off either as far as I am concerned, I've never felt in danger and neither has my daughter who now has the ride as she's so calm when she does it.
 
black_horse said:
Maybe i have observed you too much? Or seen your 'wrong' side when you have commented to others if things havent gone your way?

My opinion? The history of ulcers need question. Omeprazole is not only a horrid drug but not really that good in my opinion.

As for PS and CS competing, my opinion is my own. But i will say, there are no quick fixes to behaviour. Especially three months...

ETA - its amazing how quickly you change your posts ;) have you considered a gold medal?
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Is this your attempt at ripping out my throat and shoving me off my high horse?....

You of all people should know to be more careful about what you post online. You got caught out before - what with the whole taking pictures of someone elses dressage test sheet - which didn't do you many favours, did it...?
 
Firewell said:
Tbh I think it was just 'one of those days'. I always think you seem remarkably consistent in the way you bring CS on. Its fairly clear from the reports on here that he isn't actually competed all that much. Some 7yr olds ar out eventing every weekend over intermediate BE courses with pro's and thats hard work!
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Yes, exactly, not like we're banging out a competition week in week out :)

Worried1 said:
Have you tried fly net on his ears? It makes a massive difference to Arthur...
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He hates them :eek: CS not a headshaker, but does a brilliant impression of a chronic one with a tw4t cap on!

lostmymarbles said:
A genuine question if you suspected that you had ulcers would you treat yourself blindly or would you want full medical investigations, including a scope so they could be treated correctly?
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Thing is though - genuine remark - where do you stop, with all the prodding and poking, how many tests to be carried out, how many x rays to be taken etc etc. Surely better to see if first treating a suspected cause of aggro works? It will be a simple and obvious yes or no outcome (I hope!!).

amage said:
I am a bit bemused by the ring pressure suggestion. He is hardly a horse that is over competed and while he has moved up the grades he is a sharp and intelligent personality. I actually wonder would competing him more - perhaps every week for a month - be worth a trial so that he learns when he is in the ring he is on and that is that.
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Yes, I wondered that too. Perhaps it is just the beginning of the season? Maybe he will pick up where he left off last season soon? :confused:

Fuzzypuff said:
Have you thought of trying a massage pad to use before riding? I wouldn't be without mine and don't get on my horse without using it first as the difference is so huge!

Can you get someone to video you consistently at home and at competitions? This might give you an opportunity to watch the videos back and look for signs that you might not see on the day as it all happens too quickly.
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We have an equissage pad, I used it a lot on creaky Bruce, but CS gets such good feedback from physio neither of us have considered it before - thanks! I will get PS onto this :)

black_horse said:
leopards never change theirs spots NMT, why not go and take the micky out of fat riders again?
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For someone who took the mickey* out of another posters spelling a few pages back, that's a poor effort.
 
Jesus christ why is it that when the lovely CS has one of his "moments" people start getting on PS back about pressure. Not sure of his age but he's hardly pressured when you compare him to professional riders horses. It's evident that PS has done a fantastic job with him and every horse has its moments e.g satchmo and Kevin Staut's Silvana and Kraque Boom when they just didn't want to play in two successive Nations Cups (I think)


FWIW black_horse you seem to have an air of arrogance around yourself with the spelling error earlier in this thread and certain posts of yours recently. Dee has her moments more than CS it seems so I think you need to back off with the criticism.
 
Back to the topic at hand . .

Giving Gastroguard as a "first response" in cases of suspected ulcers is hardly unheard of in parts of the world where it's trickier and more expensive (and insurance is not the overriding concern it is here) to get a horse scoped. However, always the GG paste and used only as directed re dosage, timing etc, not the feed through products. I think the feeling is there are too many potentially mitigating factors to get a good "read" with the granules. And, as mentioned above, GG isn't a failsafe, so the test, if it's negative, is not conclusive. As to whether or not ulcer pain responds to circumstances, I've never been a horse but it certainly seems to work that way for at least some people.

Re the rearing, all horses have a "thing" and I've certainly known ones that stood up at the drop of a hat, in the same situations where another horse might plant, another might buck etc. Behaviours are expressions not just reactions and there is a tendency for horses to pull out their "stand by" in different circumstances, just like some people are yellers, some are criers etc. So you can't say, "horses with x will buck" etc. You also can't assume that grumpiness is across the board, either - like the rest of us, some are grumpy if the wind blows the wrong way, others wouldn't be grumpy if the world was ending. It's a case of being able to read and assess the individual and take the picture as a whole, not just looking to tick boxes.

The problem with ulcers, too, which seems to have completely fallen out of discussion these days, is they seem to be generally accepted to be, in many cases, a reaction to stress. That COULD come from management issues, travel stress etc. but there could easily be other factors in play, including chronic pain. I DO NOT THINK THIS IS RELEVANT TO THE OP'S HORSE, IT GOES TO THE GENERAL DISCUSSION. If we want to accept, as some do now, that they are only and always the result of infection, then there's no reason to consider management changes (although they work for some . . .) and the only way forward is aggressive treatment. So we can't have it both ways - if they are random, then it has to be the strongest necessary meds, if "we" cause them with management or other stresses, then we at least have to consider culpability. I know vets made these connections well before GG and similar were commonly available and I don't see what's changed in horses since. In so much as it's my business, I wonder how many horses' "loss of performance" is now put down to ulcers when in fact they are a symptom not a cause. Treating the ulcers will undoubtedly make the horse more comfortable and produce a general improvement in performance. But the question still is why were they there in the first place?

Anyway, back to the OP. Very frustrating. He may in fact just be one of those that loses his marbles from time to time - there have been some very famous dressage horses prone to proper toys out moments! Or there may be some pattern so subtle it's not presented yet. I had one to work with who freaked when he turned his head a particular way, although he was jumping etc the rest of the time. I've known a few stallions that stood up over nothing and nicely nicely wouldn't cut it. Although one was completely "cured" by a big man with a big stick, out winning within weeks, but then was diagnosed with hock problems soon after. Goes to show you never can tell.

What do you feel before it happens? Anything? A sort of a snap/intake of breath? Hesitation? I did have one that "flipped" and his problems were primarily mental (I knew all of his history) and he gave no warning - he once flipped over in a line of jumps! His "cure" was to go waaaaay back and put it all back together again. Another horse might get past it differently.

Re horses being inherently sods, it really does happen, especially in "known" lines. (This is one of the reasons I can't understand why more people aren't interested in bloodlines.) I will say though, in my experience, it's usually not unpredictable as such, except in cases where it's REALLY unpredictable and the horse is obviously mentally/neurologically ill. That doesn't sound like the OPs horse. He may in fact be "reactive" although the question would still be why, especially when it's not consistent with being asked specific questions. That said, the behaviour is hardly new!

I suspect this is one of those things where only time will tell - you can't fix what you can't find. I would still say GG over granules if you are going to go that route, but of course that's your choice. Otherwise, perhaps he needs to go out more? That seems to be the only thing that's not been tried. Maybe he needs to drop down a level of two and go out every weekend for awhile?

I would also say - and will no doubt draw fire with it - that your curb shank often seems very engaged. Perhaps there is something about the placement or adjustment of the curb bit which "bites" him once and awhile? What sort of curb strap are you using?
 
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Tarrsteps- I agree re the double. I mentioned riding the test in a snaffle a few posts back but no response! I agree that the curb looks pretty influential and in a test when riding a lots of tighter movements in quick succession this could well be the problem. Would also explain why he got his tongue over the bit. In your training pics (look back ans see) you don't seem to have the curb rein as short .this simple thing is easy to solve.
 
I don't know if it's any help, but I my guy is very similar to CS in a lot of ways it seems!
He's a crossbred (Not TB). He can be quite cold backed (worse when out at shows, so possibly tension related?) so when he's stood at the truck he wears a BOT back pad (ceramic, similar to magnetic therapy). Def makes a difference, so I think the massage pad would be a good idea to try for CS?
He's super grass reactive, so is on a pretty strict diet, but lives out. He only gets fresh grass at night (less sugar) and hay in the morning. Probably not applicable to a stabled horse.
He does get a fibre based feed (speedi beet and lucerne) before he's ridden if he's been boxed (so normally shows away) or been stood at the truck for awhile, to reduce the acid splash ulcer thing. About 40-30 mins before I get on?

Some times, he just throws his toys. After MUCH exploration, there is nothing wrong with the animal. Sometimes he just says NO. As someone else put it, he can be a sod, and is totally random with it. He'll be doing a lovely test, and bang, he'll go straight up (either in front or behind). No certain movement, occasionally there is a trigger that may have spooked him, but not always, sometimes it's learning something new, not always. My guy is 16, always been the same, come to the conclusion it's just the way he is!

Probably no help at all PS, but I do understand and sympathise! Hope you can get to the bottom of it, CS is certainly a stunning horse
 
I know it's the standard response but I would almost want to be ruling out pain elsewhere which will obviously be hard with the lack of pattern to the asbo behaviour :)

You say his a lazy toad? It doesn't seem to fit with the rest of his personality. My only experience with performance loss is with my own mare who slowly started to throw her toys out the pram. 90% of the time she was fine but lazy, sitting behind the leg only doing what she had to do. But she was eager to please and she carried on without argument. I too treated for ulcers and when it made no difference I concluded that she was a lazy sod. I finally listened to her when she shouted there was something wrong by rearing straight up on the road. Horses are generally giving I think is what I'm trying to say and it may not be pain but it would now be my first port of call.

Could it be the sticky stifle? Is there any other little indicators that we might be missing? Does he stand square at rest?

His obviously a super talented horse and I hope I'm wrong but when your banging your head against a brick wall and wasting entry fees it's worth looking at all the possibilitys?
 
FWIW - I for one HATE the argueing over poor PS/CS's posts. If he were mine, I would continue/perservere to mid season and see how you fair. I would also have Tarrsteps take a look at him - she is insightful, unbiased and may well be able to make informed suggestions.
 
blimey loads to reply to! thanks :)

will work down replies from top-yes he stands square at rest, and trots away sound after flexions/lunges sounds on a tight circle. The stifle the vet is sure is a ligament prob not a joint prob and s long as he's in work, it only happens 2/3 times a year now. He did have nerves blocks etc as a 4yo and vet concluded def not stifle so i think safe to say that isnt the prob?

Curb-yes i noticed that too and am not 100% sure why as it didnt used to look like that. I thought it was due to a bridoon change but have swapped back and it seems to be still swivelling right round even under little pressure.............the curb chain has a rubber guard on it and IS loose, but will def try a different pad on it, and also a leather curb chain.

The tongue over bit was just a freak thing i think, he hasnt done it before and wasnt trying(i couldnt feel him opening mouth/drawing tongue up etc), i think he just happened to be mouthing the bit as perhaps i picked the rein up and somehow it created a space the tongue flipped in to so i think we can ignore that as a totally random thing.

he does it MORE/worse in the snaffle, he prefers the weight of the double and takes a firmer more forward contact in it, sits behind the snaffle no matter how thick/soft and spins whilst rearing more often in it. The double has actually made a huge difference to his forward thinking-ness (great english lol!), and on the times ive tried to canter him in the field in the snaffle since moving to the double,he totally spits the dummy and naps to a standstill (this has to be seen to be believed, NMT will tell you how disconcerting it is to watch him wriggle and grind his way in to the top corner and then simply refuse to move!)

can, and will, definately try the equissage again. he wears a magnet rug daily and before shows as i felt that worked better for him, but can def try the equissage again without any effort so will do that :)

TS-i sometimes feel his shoulders *block* for a half stride then bang-up, but more often he seems to be swinging out in to the next stride and then retract it like lightening, sit down and stand up. theres no gradual grumping/chewing bit/swishing tail etc.

I do understand what you are saying re scoping/omeprazole/GG all of you, but ive put a HUGE amount of time in to researching this and spoken to 2 vets about it.I cannot afford GG full time, even at the maintenance dose so there has to be an alternative found. Scoping CS wouldnt be easy as he isnt good with men and isnt easy for the vet, dont get me wrong, we COULD do it, but ive spoken to several UK people using the omeprazole with super results and in the US its used far more widely with again good results, barely any problems/lack of improvment and there are hundreds if not thousands of horses on it. Bearing that in mind, £150 or so to try it, seems worth it to me? I spoke to my own vet, and a close friend who is a vet, both said the way he barely does it at home or in lessons doesnt really tie in with a huge physical issue, if physical at all, but that the omeprazole was worth a try and my vet would discuss further if i then wanted to scope.

Louise-thank you, nice to have an outside view from someone who has seen it happen.

Lolo-thats exactly what trainer says, like he does it, but doesnt look sure why and is happier if i can get in there and stop him doing it almost. trainer thinks its mental, ie learned behaviour but is now getting to point that he does it because he always has, not because there a current reason. He HAS done this since a 2yo and has always been prone to it with me, its not a new or unusual thing and perhap i have made a mountain out of a molehill without meaning to, through frustration??????i totted sheets up, and if he had got a 7 for that change instead of a 1 for the rear (got a 7 for every other change all day), got even a 6 on submission instead of a 5 (double marks too) and a 6 or 7 for the final cnetre line instead of a 4, he would have been on 63 % which given judge and compared to last week at Vale, is probably about right. Harder to tot up the second test but he got solid 7's for the canter work, and was let down by the splattering of 4 and 5's for the walk and crap piris and then crap transition to trot and canter after the walk. Had he not had to stop to fiddle with tongue, i dont think he would have dropped behind leg.
If id come home with 2 x 63% i would have been happy, so maybe ive made too much of this out of frustration/emotion?????


not saying for a sec that i not going to check/investigate things BTW!

fuzzypuff-he has ad lib forage all day before a show, only time he cant eat is actually in the warm up! he does eat en route and scoffs like mad once we arrive, and im one of those *early rather than late* people, so he always has at least half an hour to munch before i tack up.
he had alfalfa bricks over winter and it made no difference to his behaviour at all.

have hard mixed reports on succeed-anyone else using it?

Eyes-will def get vet to look at this next time he's on yard, or actually vet friend is over fri, can get her to have a look at him, i know its completely none scientific but he shows equal reaction to movement on both sides of head and has no prob seeing in the dark/dull light. But have actually seen Satchmo's explosions in action and it does look similar so worth a check up, thank you!!!!!

Breeding wise, both Daylami and Alzao are known to have thrown tricky ones, so genes are not on my side lol! his breeder and race trainer both found him tricky which of course could mean a long term physical issue, but the fact he is 500% better now than as a 4yo doesnt really follow that pattern.

If ive missed anything prod me-rather a lot to think though/work through.

Can play with equissage and curb chain/pads over weekend, get eyes check fri and will update on omeprazole when it arrives.
 
as a bit of an aside given post #9 on this thread is it legal to be giving omeprazole instead of GG anyway?

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=530886

PS my logic thinking would be re the shows that CS has just had a break from comps and has only done two since coming back (the first of which wasn't ideal situ wise and may have wound him up) and that he might just get better for going out in that environment a bit more so it is less of a 'thing/occasion' as such.
 
Firstly can I say that I really hope you get to the bottom of this...both you & CS are obviously very talented.
Also what I love about PS reports is they really are warts & all. Sometimes it feels in here that nobody is allowed to have a bad day or make mistakes. It is refreshing to see someone willing to show the bad as well as the good!
Also can I also say that I'm pleased that *on the whole* this has been a decent thread to read. Apart from a couple of posts which are obviously trying to get a rise out of PS & NMT ;) it has been full of interesting advice.
 
Thanks GP :)

i dont really want to get drawn in to the legality issue, as i understand it, if its not for re-sale, its a grey area, and if i get hauled off in handcuffs..................NMT gets the ride on CS (i know you love him really nik!!!!)

I cannot afford GG long term, and omeprazole has shown to be a viable alternative for many many horses, hence its worth a try at the very least, and in any case, its on way now, so i shall try that and then see if i feel its going to work or if we need to scope or try something else.pehaps a hasty decision to order it now, but whats done is done and i will try it when it arrives, and monitor very closely.
 
Dunno if it's relevant, but you may not need GG long term - my chap isnt on it routinely, he's managed on a day to day basis with supplement/diet/care then if he does anything stressful I use GG for 4 days before hand and during the event. So when he did the 3 day last year, he had quarter of a tube a day for 4 days before we left, then quarter of a tube a day each day we were there.

Lots of horses are managed this way. Total cost £60 which in the grand scheme of a 3 day is peanuts.

He events up to intermediate one days without anything except careful management and ulcer calm fed before riding and again in his other feed.
 
^ That was my point re the Gg as a diagnostic. Not that the granules aren't effective for long term management, just that the Gg is a more definitive test, if only because it is more easily controlled.
 
robthecob said:
You say his a lazy toad? It doesn't seem to fit with the rest of his personality.
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Oh god no, it really is a lazy toad. Turning them out this morning, Fig was marching me off my feet up the field and I was dragging CS along behind me :p You really wouldn't believe he was bred for going fast!!

Prince33Sp4rkle said:
i dont really want to get drawn in to the legality issue, as i understand it, if its not for re-sale, its a grey area, and if i get hauled off in handcuffs..................NMT gets the ride on CS (i know you love him really nik!!!!)
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Meep :eek:

charlie76 said:
I have sewn my curb chain into a prolite curb pad, my boy is 100% happier with this.
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Oooh I feel a diy session coming on - sounds like a clever idea. We have lots of spare pads etc floating around, sure we can knock something up :)
 
Crap at HHO. But re curb chains, you have to have a metal one WITH a cover (cover can be anything) but you cant have a leather one. So that is worth remembering.

Also have nothing to add except my trainer and I (who also trains PS) both remarked that we have difficult horses in the sense of them being bloody hot and sharp, yet as PS put it "idle toads" they totally drop you. So I dont think that is terrilbly unusual.

I have also seen PS when we have hired arenas together etc and I saw him do it once then totally unprovoked and without any reason that I could/ see hear. Making this a little more difficult was he was then VERY hard to get back on side and truly PS did everything she could (0r that I would) and yes he came through it, but in a test situation it would not have been "quick enough".

Again having seen Fran in the flesh, she has done a lovely job with him, I have even ridden him out of his home environment and felt a lovely, happy horse , so I do hope these issues gets sorted. As with all these topics, when you ask for help you do get a can of worms and I suppose it is inevitable.

ETA fran read earlier somewhere back, you only gave a little of the calmer, I have a vague recollection of him doing something similar when you tried a bit before, maybe put him back on the whole thing for a bit?
 
CKK - I think you can have a leather chain:

"The curb chain may be made of leather, metal or a combination and must be fitted in the
conventional way" - from this year's bd rules.

I don't have any thoughts really otherwise other than the curb and keeping it looser seems like something to try, and maybe seeing if competing more or less helps. Hope it does get better x
 
Thought it might be worth noting that I have sometimes seen a reaction to the curb if the chain is a little too loose - in that it lets the curb rotate too far before coming into play. Might be worth playing with the tightness of it as well as the cover at home and see what reaction you get, and not necessarily just go looser?
 
Chloe..x said:
Jesus christ why is it that when the lovely CS has one of his "moments" people start getting on PS back about pressure. Not sure of his age but he's hardly pressured when you compare him to professional riders horses. It's evident that PS has done a fantastic job with him and every horse has its moments e.g satchmo and Kevin Staut's Silvana and Kraque Boom when they just didn't want to play in two successive Nations Cups (I think)


FWIW black_horse you seem to have an air of arrogance around yourself with the spelling error earlier in this thread and certain posts of yours recently. Dee has her moments more than CS it seems so I think you need to back off with the criticism.
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Don't really want to get too involved in this discussion as to be honest I can't stand the competition bitchiness within the horse world! But have to say I didn't really think BH's initial comments were in any way critical - just making suggestions and offering an opinion about scoping before 'treating'. An opinion which many other people have echoed on this thread.

PS and NMT strike me (as an outsider who doesn't know any of them) to be very defensive and prickly for some reason!
 
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