Arghhhh he did it, he pulled away and *****ed off in the dark

[Dave's Mam]

Another possibilty. Could you get to your yard in daylight tomorrow? Half day, early finish & owe time & get a feel for things in daylight?

ETA When Dave is being a knob, I also use the close control & elbow into his shoulder.

 

[GTRJazz]

I lead three horses through a field with better grass every morning to their winter field I would say the communication through the lead rope is as busy as when I am riding a dressage test I watch their ever move and preempt it without any voice commands.
I have used a Chiffney in the past and for a horse that is strong and poorly trained it is a good option.
The thought that you may need a long rope to move a horse is the point to seek professional help

 

[HappyHorses:)]

If your not feeling comfortable using a separate stallion chain etc and think a bridle may be a faff why don't you use one of the ESKADRON CONTROL HEADCOLLAR? You can have a rope on the normal head collar ring and one on the chain that is fixed around the nose part. If he pulls it will tighten, if he stops pulling the chain loosens so he should learn pulling is uncomfortable. If he goes to take off you can give a quick reminder that it's not acceptable.

If he gets away from you he will stop pretty soon if he steps on the chain rope. Don't worry about him hurting himself, he sounds smart enough to know what he can get away with and I'm sure is smart enough to know when he won't be able to

I use this on my tank of a 15.3 Section D Stallion and it works great. It's a nightmare when they realise they can set a neck and go.

Don't overthink that you may hurt him by using something stronger for control, nip it in the bud now as he sounds like he's taking the pee pee.

Whether he has ulcers, wants his tea or a blade of grass he has to be reminded that behaviour is never ok.

You can do it OP. Loads of good advice from HHOs on here for you to think about.

 

[buddylove]

Not read the entire thread, but have you been taught how to use the dually by an IH associate? Too many people buy them thinking they are the cure of all ills and then slate them because they haven't used them properly. Get a recommended associate out and let them teach you, it really does make a difference.

 

[DD]

Thanks,I am in contact with a few natural horsemanship trainers, I am trying to organise someone to come to my yard on the weekend as I'm not ashamed to admit I need help.

I have always been anti stallion chain but I don't know if it might help with this.

sounds to me that you need to stop being a fluffy bunny and get real. the horse is bogging off because it knows it can. its a horse not a human. give it some proper training and disapin stop pussy footing around with new age ridicules methods. get some respect.

 

[Horsekaren]

You are right I know I need to get tough! Can I ask exactly how you would tackle this? I need respect, now! He went out in his bridle this morning and was fine, but I need to know he isn't going to bog off all the time. How would you break this habit? I know it's utter rudeness, he got away once and now knows he can.
I have done stop starting, backing up, ground work, what specifically would you do?

Thanks everyone for the advice it means the world!
I have another livery meeting me tonight for help. I will be armed with whip and longer rope. Would you stick with the bridle again? Or try and get the respect back on the dually?
I will try and keep his head towards me. Would you suggest i be firm the entire way with a tough grip and elbows or let he walk until he missbehaves? My issue with theblater is if I'm ntnquick enough to react.

sounds to me that you need to stop being a fluffy bunny and get real. the horse is bogging off because it knows it can. its a horse not a human. give it some proper training and disapin stop pussy footing around with new age ridicules methods. get some respect.

 

[Ceriann]

I would rather use a stallion chain than a dually I find they are pretty useless for horses that know they can get away from you, why don't you just stick his bridle on it might be just enough to stop him from running if he knows his got a bit in his mouth.

I wouldn't have his bucket feed waiting for him when he comes in either, just have his Hay net in the stable when he returns from the field do everything you need to do and feed him just before you go.

This - bridle for better control (and remind him he's in it - I don't mean yank him about but a couple of reminders he's under your control) and take away the incentive to tank. Mine get hay when first in - one bolts and I worry about choke but some time with a hay net calms that down.

Owning your first horse is a very steep curve and nearly 20 years post mine I'm still learning and changing how I do things. This forum is great for support and advice (even if some of it is a bit sharp). Keep asking but also get yourself some support on the ground. I'm not anti NH but anyone who can give you some tips on handling etc would be good.

 

[Auslander]

You are right I know I need to get tough! Can I ask exactly how you would tackle this? I need respect, now! He went out in his bridle this morning and was fine, but I need to know he isn't going to bog off all the time. How would you break this habit? I know it's utter rudeness, he got away once and now knows he can.
I have done stop starting, backing up, ground work, what specifically would you do?

Thanks everyone for the advice it means the world!
I have another livery meeting me tonight for help. I will be armed with whip and longer rope. Would you stick with the bridle again? Or try and get the respect back on the dually?
I will try and keep his head towards me. Would you suggest i be firm the entire way with a tough grip and elbows or let he walk until he missbehaves? My issue with theblater is if I'm ntnquick enough to react.

Without wishing to sound unpleasant, you need to stop faffing around with the Dually for the moment, as he knows he can get away from you in it, and you say yourself that you aren't quick enough with it yet. A lot of people have told you to put a bridle on him, and get tough. You are getting help in, so you just need to be able to get him in safely for the moment. Right now is not the time to be thinking about training, so don't even think about trying stop/start/back up right now - just focus on getting him in quickly, safely, under control, and save the retraining for when you have professional help.
I posted above - you may have missed it. What I said there is what I would do with a horse as a short term solution, to keep you and him safe until you have a pro on board to fix the underlying issue.

 

[DD]

get a bit in his mouth and keep his head pointed towards you even when moving forwards he can move crabwise its ok. don't be afraid of pulling really hard. wear gloves. give him a sharp tug if you even think for a moment that hes going to leg it. he knows he can get away from you so he will. you need to get the upper hand if it hurts him so be it better than him hurting you. and wear a riding hat when leading incase he decides to rear then he cannot go forward.. very short lead rope keep at his shoulder your elbow into it if need be and don't be afraid of giving his mouth a shank.

 

[Horsekaren]

Without wishing to sound unpleasant, you need to stop faffing around with the Dually for the moment, as he knows he can get away from you in it, and you say yourself that you aren't quick enough with it yet. A lot of people have told you to put a bridle on him, and get tough. You are getting help in, so you just need to be able to get him in safely for the moment. Right now is not the time to be thinking about training, so don't even think about trying stop/start/back up right now - just focus on getting him in quickly, safely, under control, and save the retraining for when you have professional help.
I posted above - you may have missed it. What I said there is what I would do with a horse as a short term solution, to keep you and him safe until you have a pro on board to fix the underlying issue.

Ah I have just seen it, thanks. Bridle and lunge line. I'm just gutted about the dually as it was great! It's like he has suddley realised how to stop it from being effective. I will add he has now done this twice once on Saturday and yesterday. I plan on doing lots of work on this over the weekend with help and alone so I am keen for training tips.
I have a feeling I'm going to pop him on a lunge line and he is going to try to off off whilst lungeing which I guess is a good opportunity to get the respect back. Since he is being worked less with his problems things are getting worse! More work hendoesnthe happier he has always seemed and respectful!

 

[alainax]

I've found the be nice headcollars to be more effective than a dually, but still not everyone's cup of tea.These fluffy padded headcollars we have these days are easy for a horse to pull through, the be nice is more similar to a traditional western rope halter.

The first thing I'd be looking at is your response to him pulling. Does he pull pull pull end up in a tug of war the bog off? Or does he walk nice, spook, then bog off?

If it's the former then it could be a lot to do with how you react. It's often our first instinct to pull back ( in riding too). We end up giving them something to lean/pull on. There should be nothing there, ( like training a pulley dog too), pressure release short little checks on the rope to get him to slow down, with increasing intensity if he's not listening. If he's still not listening pop him on a circle until he realises he is going no where until he walks nice.

I've got one who was a bit feral, he would have loved to bog off, he spent a few month doing a few circles ennroute to the field. Now he walks well.

 

[Landcruiser]

I'm saddened by the number of people giving advice to yank on a horse's mouth or nose and inflict pain (and potentially damage) by using bits, chains and chifneys. I always wonder if you'd do the same with a dog or other animal. Yes, I know a horse is a big and dangerous animal, but I don't believe this is an excuse to inflict pain.

I find Duallys awkward and cumbersome, and the pull comes from the wrong direction. A plain western rope halter (non tightening and correctly fitted)) is much more effective and so much easier to use. A long rope with some weight to it - at least 12 feet long - makes for much safer handling. Leading off a bridle seems crazy to me - the horse only has to turn to face you and pull back, and you have nothing. I've seen this with my own eyes at every fun ride I've ever been to (ok that's an exageration!) - but the number of people I've seen hauled down ramps and then wondering why their horse is now tanking off between the horseboxes...wearing a bridle.. Forgive me for wanting no part of that.

OP, you are in trouble because this horse has got away from you twice now, and yes, you need to toughen up, but by being prepared, setting yourself up to succeed, pre-planning...I don't think the vet is going to come up with a magic and instant cure, and I don't believe that shutting the horse in a stable for several days will help the situation in any way - far from it. It's not just a short term solution you need, you have to take back control of your horse properly - but by using your big human brain and the laws of physics rather than by brute force and dominance. You CAN hold onto a horse that is tanking off, but it's not easy and you have to be wearing grippy gloves, a hat, good grippy boots, the right rope/halter, and be on a decent surface. Mud won't work. But far better to not let it get that far. Good luck OP.

 

[Horsekaren]

yesterday he was walking faster than i wanted, i pressure and released to slow down, ignored, i did it again he listened slowed his walk for two/ three strides then head up straight into canter, it was to quick and powerful. i released the pressure as soon as he slowed but it was false, he wasn't being nice, he was preparing his next move which i honestly didn't see coming. I truly don't believe he is spooking at the moment, when he spooks his isn't normally brave enough to run. So yes i guess we are embarking on a tug of war as my reaction is too slow, once the pressure is on the Dually he can pull through it if its not removed, i tend to just try and hold on so i'm giving him that to pull on.

I know these head collars have mixed reviews but when its used properly its great! but he isnt giving me the chance to use it at the moment, he is disrespecting it. I am tempted to try a be nice, but i struggle to see where the pressure and release is? to me it just looks like a rope version of a standard head collar. i will read up on it some more.

i will add that he was lead in a bridle at his last home so he had come one leaps and bounds, i was so proud of him and how we had tackled it, we went 6 months of perfection leading. but he has it in him, always has, im happy to use a bridle for now but i dont want to always be leading him in a bridle, i don't want him to be a problem horse i will feel utterly ashamed of myself if he doesnt get back to where he was!

I've found the be nice headcollars to be more effective than a dually, but still not everyone's cup of tea.These fluffy padded headcollars we have these days are easy for a horse to pull through, the be nice is more similar to a traditional western rope halter.

The first thing I'd be looking at is your response to him pulling. Does he pull pull pull end up in a tug of war the bog off? Or does he walk nice, spook, then bog off?

If it's the former then it could be a lot to do with how you react. It's often our first instinct to pull back ( in riding too). We end up giving them something to lean/pull on. There should be nothing there, ( like training a pulley dog too), pressure release short little checks on the rope to get him to slow down, with increasing intensity if he's not listening. If he's still not listening pop him on a circle until he realises he is going no where until he walks nice.

I've got one who was a bit feral, he would have loved to bog off, he spent a few month doing a few circles ennroute to the field. Now he walks well.

 

[Polos Mum]

If the bridle worked then stick with that - for months if need be - until he has totally forgotten about running off.

In my experience they learn respect not through 1 or 2 'sessions' on the ground or with a trainer but in EVERY single interaction you have with them. it's tiny, minute things you do / don't do that build up to the bigger picture.
So when you go in his stable and he doesn't step away from the door or tries to mug you for a scratch or sweets - that's rude
When you tie him up to groom and he swings his bum around - that's rude
When you pick his feet out and he doesn't lift them up promptly - that's rude
When you're leading/ riding and stop to talk to someone and he fidgets around - that's rude
When you ask him to step back and it take 3 asks and a push to his chest - that's rude.
Look at him with fresh eyes and see how he responds to you generally

You need him to do as you ask to the letter in all circumstances all the time - and in my experience that means being really picky. SO correcting every little bit of rudeness as it happens - even if it's no big deal nor causing a problem.
So when he's tied up and swings around to look at something - move him back
When he doesn't move for you to come in his stable - (initially) totally over react throw your hands in the air and shout - you'll get his attention.

Best yet - get someone else to observe and then point out all the little bits of behaviour that are building up to him pulling away - I'd guarantee it's not the only symptom.

 

[Sussexbythesea]

I am not being facetious, I consider it a real risk. And a risk that would be hugely reduced by using a chifney. I have never seen anything but good come of using them. I have no idea why people are so scared of them. I think it's just the look of them.

I agree. It’s hopefully not a long-term solution but keeps horse and handler safe as well as anyone else that might have been in the path of an escapee horse.

 

[meleeka]

I'm saddened by the number of people giving advice to yank on a horse's mouth or nose and inflict pain (and potentially damage) by using bits, chains and chifneys. I always wonder if you'd do the same with a dog or other animal. Yes, I know a horse is a big and dangerous animal, but I don't believe this is an excuse to inflict pain.

Not an excuse to inflict pain but possibly a quick solution to a dangerous problem. In an ideal world the OP would have a nice mud free route to the field, all the time in the world to train the horse and of course, daylight. That isn’t going to happen so she needs to take back control quickly and effectively now. I would never have chosen to inflict pain on my boy, it’s a horrible thought, but then I didn’t, he inflicted it on himself when he went to bog off. I had to hand walk him while on box rest with no facilities whatsoever so understandly when he got out of that stable he forgot his manners. I tried a bridle without success and resorted to a stallion chain. He only went to go once and the shock of it stopped him in his tracks. He was perfect after that and I was safe again.I wish I’d done it straight away as it transpired he’d re-injured himself during his airs above the ground so it all went on far longer than it should have.

 

[Hallo2012]

i would just get either lemieux or eskadron chain headcollar and be done with it.

they apply no more pressure if the horse is behaving and only come in to play if they go to pull, and you can clip it to the normal ring to tie up so minimal faffing. you will safer, every single time, and the horse will pick up on that confidence and most likely behave.

whilst i have NEVER seen any kind of injury caused by a horse pulling away in a chifney and sodding off trailing the rope, i accept its a possibility that is lessened by the chain headcollars as at worst if they DO stand on the rope hard, they scuff their nose (and i tend to think well boo hoo shouldnt have pulled away then should you!)

we always led our big stallion in a chain, hardly ever needed it, but when we did, it was there, instantly............however dont just lean on it and pull and try and hold him back..............let him walk on a lose rope and when he goes to pull absolutely give him a sharp sock and make him slam on the anchors and back up several quick steps. then walk on again on a lose rope-that is your pressure and release.....

 

[MotherOfChickens]

Can I ask how you all come to have this wealth of experience ?
I was a stable girl at a riding school for 3 years at the age of 11 obviously didn't learn much, I then loaned and learnt a lot but it seems I'm struggling with lack of knowledge and experience , i can't gain experience as I'm living it, what else can I do ?? How did everyone else learn to deal with a horse that wasn't perfect all the time?
I read and read and pester everyone on here is there anything else I should be doing ?
I confidently deal with all of the other horses on the yard but it seems when it comes to my own I'm failing...

quite honestly many of the posters on here have the luxury of not posting every cock up on the internet because it didn't exist back then and then there are those of us that worked with horses for many years and got to handle many, many horses over the years. Most of us know when we have a horse we can't handle and know enough to get help with. get help with your horse asap-and don't bother with some NH trainer, too many of them are rubbish.

In the meantime-get a bridle on it, normal length rope (am not a fan of long ropes-they can just build up speed!), coupling and keep a strong hold-if he so much as looks at you funny you correct him and as someone else said-do not give him the benefit of the doubt-use your right elbow in his neck and his head towards you slightly.wear gloves and a hat.

I don't know if this is the case with this horse but they can get fractious if cold/hungry or even tired. that isn't the point though, he should still be safe for you to lead.

 

[Adonissaan]

Hi Horsekaren -

I use a stud rope with chain and put it across my boys nose. This has helped so much you wouldn't believe and is stronger and a bit harsher than a dually.

I give a sharp tug whenever he is going to act up - he hardly ever even tries after having this on for 3 months.

Just a tip if you were to try one never tie him up with the chain around his nose - sometimes my boy can be a problem getting him tied up as well so I usually have another lead rope tied up ready to attach to his headcollar so he can't bolt back!

 

[Hallo2012]

i do find it a bit worrying that so far in about 2 days of forum life we have one horse that cant be led down the road for a mere 20 mins, one that wont come in from the field without decking its owner, and now advice from someone with a horse that wont stand for 5 seconds to be tied up and has to have a rope waiting?!

 

[Damnation]

Ok 2 things.

1) Groundwork. I would be doing alot of groundwork in the school to restablish who is really in charge, teaching him pressure/release etc. I would get help from instructor when doing this.

2) Bridle or stallion chain over the nose, lunge line, hat and gloves. You need to learn his body language, read when he is thinking about going. At this point use your groundwork, ask him to stop, move over, back up etc. Regain control of his neck/feet then walk on. Make sure his neck is bent towards you and relaxed, worse case scenario, dig your elbow into his shoulder and bend his neck towards you, it isn't a magical cure all but it definately make it more difficult for them to pee off!

Definately get help and stay safe!

 

[Horsekaren]

i do find it a bit worrying that so far in about 2 days of forum life we have one horse that cant be led down the road for a mere 20 mins, one that wont come in from the field without decking its owner, and now advice from someone with a horse that wont stand for 5 seconds to be tied up and has to have a rope waiting?!

Yes these are worrying that is why we are seeking advice from people who have potentially dealt with this before. My horse will walk back from the field nicely has done for 6 months but an incident has occurred and i am trying to correct it and struggling.

Horses aren't perfect, far from it... we can try out best to keep them in check but they all have their moments and i'm living one. He isnt a wild beast thats left to rule his world, i try really hard to keep him in check but sometimes your go to things (dually ) fail and then another solution has to be found. I know its all about training and respect but that inst instant. .. and tbh i have been really proud of how my boy improved with his ground manors since i have had him, the fact he hasn't been lead in a bridle every day and walked and stood nicely for most of his time with me speaks volumes. Now i have hit a bump in the road.

My last loan horse was perfect to lead, taught me nothing, that wasn't my doing, that was the horse and how it had behaved for 20 years not all horses are the same

 

[Wagtail]

I'm saddened by the number of people giving advice to yank on a horse's mouth or nose and inflict pain (and potentially damage) by using bits, chains and chifneys. I always wonder if you'd do the same with a dog or other animal. Yes, I know a horse is a big and dangerous animal, but I don't believe this is an excuse to inflict pain.

I find Duallys awkward and cumbersome, and the pull comes from the wrong direction. A plain western rope halter (non tightening and correctly fitted)) is much more effective and so much easier to use. A long rope with some weight to it - at least 12 feet long - makes for much safer handling. Leading off a bridle seems crazy to me - the horse only has to turn to face you and pull back, and you have nothing. I've seen this with my own eyes at every fun ride I've ever been to (ok that's an exageration!) - but the number of people I've seen hauled down ramps and then wondering why their horse is now tanking off between the horseboxes...wearing a bridle.. Forgive me for wanting no part of that.

OP, you are in trouble because this horse has got away from you twice now, and yes, you need to toughen up, but by being prepared, setting yourself up to succeed, pre-planning...I don't think the vet is going to come up with a magic and instant cure, and I don't believe that shutting the horse in a stable for several days will help the situation in any way - far from it. It's not just a short term solution you need, you have to take back control of your horse properly - but by using your big human brain and the laws of physics rather than by brute force and dominance. You CAN hold onto a horse that is tanking off, but it's not easy and you have to be wearing grippy gloves, a hat, good grippy boots, the right rope/halter, and be on a decent surface. Mud won't work. But far better to not let it get that far. Good luck OP.

Agree with this but would add a knot at the end of the lead rope. This really helps if they try to get away from you. And yes, a plain rope halter is far more effective than a dually.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

I'm saddened by the number of people giving advice to yank on a horse's mouth or nose and inflict pain (and potentially damage) by using bits, chains and chifneys.
.

As far as I see it, the pain is self inflicted - walk nicely and there is no pressure, lag behind or pull ahead and there is a small amount of 'no that's not what I want' pressure. Try to bog off and there is a TONNE of pressure. Horse chooses how it's going to go, not human. My preference is always for as little as possible but not at the expense of being effective.

There is also a difference between safe management of a dangerous problem RIGHT NOW and training a horse out of that problem in the longer term.

OP you've had lots of advice - so you need to decide what sounds achievable for you and stick with one approach consistently. And you need to think in 2 stages: safety NOW and manners in the future. I echo the advice to get a professional trainer in - mainly because no matter what tool or technique you use, the crucial elements are timing, feel and confidence - which you can only get through one to one advice if it does not come naturally to you. As to how people learn - they learn like you are now. Through fixing problems and being out of their depth, taking advice and working through solutions!

I don't really know what people mean by natural horsemanship - it's a meaningless term as far as I can tell meaning anything from traditional cowboy approaches like that of Ray Hunt/Buck Brannamman (who are far from 'fluffy bunnies' or new age) to people who go bitless and are unshod to people who use PNH and a whole load of other stuff all under the NH banner. So I'd ignore all labels and just use a trainer who is recommended by someone you trust.

 

[southerncomfort]

It does sound like this relationship has gone a bit wrong somewhere along the line and your horse now does what he wants when he wants.

I genuinely think you need to take a more holistic view of what's going on here. The problem isn't that he is getting away from you and tanking off up to the yard, the problem is that you don't know how to handle him and he doesn't have much respect for you.

Sometimes you just need to swallow your pride and ask for help. Their are plenty of excellent horse trainers who specialise in behavioural problems out there who would be able to help you work with your horse and get this partnership back on the right track.

Groundwork is going to be key here, and a good trainer will be able to show you some simple exercises to get him listening to you.

 

[paddy555]

i do find it a bit worrying that so far in about 2 days of forum life we have one horse that cant be led down the road for a mere 20 mins, one that wont come in from the field without decking its owner, and now advice from someone with a horse that wont stand for 5 seconds to be tied up and has to have a rope waiting?!

I agree. It is depressing as is some of the attitudes to horses. Landcruiser's post says it all to me.
To redress the balance I led my horses out their fields this morning successfully and will bring them in equally successfully tonight. Lots of mud BTW.
I don't use a headcollar, too time consuming to put on. I put rope round their necks and lead them that way except for the ones I just lead by their neck covers. They are trained to follow my body language ie I stop and they stop. I read them and they read me. We bond with each other and hopefully they do like me at least if not love me. That is how I trained them to lead. They do that off a headcollar, a rope round their necks, nothing on their heads and a schooling whip and finally nothing at all. Perhaps my hand on their neck as they like that. I don't even own a chiffney or stallion chain. I would simply use a rope halter and 12 ft rope.

If I had your horse to work on HK that is the sort of training I would be doing to start with to regain the balance. (in an enclosed area) Very slowly and very back to basics.

 

[ihatework]

I agree. It is depressing as is some of the attitudes to horses. Landcruiser's post says it all to me.
To redress the balance I led my horses out their fields this morning successfully and will bring them in equally successfully tonight. Lots of mud BTW.
I don't use a headcollar, too time consuming to put on. I put rope round their necks and lead them that way except for the ones I just lead by their neck covers. They are trained to follow my body language ie I stop and they stop. I read them and they read me. We bond with each other and hopefully they do like me at least if not love me. That is how I trained them to lead. They do that off a headcollar, a rope round their necks, nothing on their heads and a schooling whip and finally nothing at all. Perhaps my hand on their neck as they like that. I don't even own a chiffney or stallion chain. I would simply use a rope halter and 12 ft rope.

If I had your horse to work on HK that is the sort of training I would be doing to start with to regain the balance. (in an enclosed area) Very slowly and very back to basics.

Maybe some of the posters have seen the aftermath of what happens when a rude horse and novice owner mix? Safety first, and if that takes a bit of tough love then that is fine in my book. This kind of behaviour can escalate quickly and last thing the OP needs is a hoof in the face. Everyone is saying she also needs to train the underlying issue long term.

And for the record I own a stallion chain and chiffney. They are both at the bottom of a storage box and haven’t seen daylight in years but I wouldn’t hesitate to dig them out if I ran into a problem. Last time I used the chain it was on a 2yo that started running you down. It wore the chain twice and never tried the trick again - good job really as it ended up 17hh plus.

I can’t even remember the last time I used a bridle to lead in normal circumstances.
Only manouvering a 17.2hh horse to/from trot up and back from xc at Burghley - but that’s kind of understandable

 

[Ample Prosecco]

If I had your horse to work on HK that is the sort of training I would be doing to start with to regain the balance. (in an enclosed area) Very slowly and very back to basics.

And in the meantime......???

There is a difference between training a horse to be light, soft, responsive, trusting, respectful etc over time and addressing an unruly rude and dangerous behaviour in the here and now.

I went to a Buck Brannaman clinic in June and a Mark Rashid clinic a few years ago. Both horsemen have horses who are as you describe above - extremely well trained and responsive to the slightest cues which are virtually invisible. But it was eye opening to watch them deal with unruly horses in the moment. Mark looked like he punched a pony in the face - actually the pony threw its head into Mark's closed fist. Mark did not yield so the horse punched himself really - as he would if he used his head as a weapon against a tree. It would hardly be the trees responsibility! Buck had to deal with a dangerous fell pony who kept rearing when being led. He put the pony on the floor when it tried to rear over the top of him. People were leaving the event and there was a big hoo-ha on social media afterwards. He said he simply never has these problems with his own horses because they are trained correctly from the start. But the OP is in the situation she is in and she has to deal with it. And now that the horse has learnt he can overpower her, then all the body language in the world is not going to fix that until she has his attention again.

 

[Polos Mum]

I can't work out how to post photos but my 4 all get led in and out together - 4 at a time (people are horrified when the see it first time). The know the order in which they come out of their stables, and that they go and 'collect' the others before going to the field. I put friends next to each other and the annoying one on his own on one side.
They go in the gate and walk around behind it so I can shut it, then they all wait patiently for headcollars to come off in turn.
They are amazing animals and will learn to do amazing things - but it takes time and knowledge. Mine will follow this routine with my non horsey OH without incident. He doesn't understand why anyone wastes time leading one at a time (until we acquired a colt who'd never been led!)

Polo players who ride one and lead two are another good example, they have full control of 3 horses even in canter.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

I agree. It is depressing as is some of the attitudes to horses. Landcruiser's post says it all to me.
To redress the balance I led my horses out their fields this morning successfully and will bring them in equally successfully tonight. Lots of mud BTW.
I don't use a headcollar, too time consuming to put on. I put rope round their necks and lead them that way except for the ones I just lead by their neck covers. They are trained to follow my body language ie I stop and they stop. I read them and they read me. We bond with each other and hopefully they do like me at least if not love me. That is how I trained them to lead. They do that off a headcollar, a rope round their necks, nothing on their heads and a schooling whip and finally nothing at all. Perhaps my hand on their neck as they like that. I don't even own a chiffney or stallion chain. I would simply use a rope halter and 12 ft rope.

If I had your horse to work on HK that is the sort of training I would be doing to start with to regain the balance. (in an enclosed area) Very slowly and very back to basics.

yes, thats all lovely-mine also lead very well in a standard head collar (I loathe rope halters and see no use for them, I would never use a dually or a be nice either) but some horses do not and as the OP states, she needs something that will work tonight. I don't own a chifney or a stallion chain (but have worked in yards whereby bringing a horse out of a ox without one would earn you a rollicking) but I do have bridles for leading on roads or for emergencies when I am travelling. sometimes defensive riding or handling is safer than having a loose horse charging about in the dark.