Arthritis without lameness, what to do?

[tristars]

sorry charlie has art

this is why i have any bought in horses x rayed , spine, stifle down an knee down, and whatever, just in case, even the young

personally i would use oil in diet and any joint supplement suitable, and watch the weight

our vet recs cartrophen, never used it mind

i have knee art and can `feel it` now and again, the knee is very slightly swollen for many years, and i am not lame, however i do mind it,

horses of course are much heavier on their legs than we are and carry weight

i would do all that will not harm in hope it may just help,

this is when you wish they could talk so you could have the `how are you feeling that` conversation

 

[Sossigpoker]

Well I don't think it was fair for you to have said what you did at the time and your comments didn't help me either at the time. Tell me how then it's the number one condition claimed for on insurance that all horses don’t fall into the 'pre existing catergory'?? Because they obviously don't

FWIW I wouldn't do anything proactive at this moment in time in terms of medicating Charlie. My own positive experience of arthramid was short lived. Although it seemed to help Baileys coffin joint arthritis initially it ended up having a negative effect for her because free from pain she carried herself differently and overcompensated in such a way that caused more weight in her heel and caused her issues which sadly resulted in her euthanasia. That was my own personal take on it.

I always say if it ain't broke don't fix it. I wish I'd never been swayed by my vets to try it. If I'm in a similar position again I think I'd ask more questions.

My cob was sound on vetting and 12 months later I started noting issues. He had an almost fused hock. That's not happened in 12 months.
Did I claim for it? Absolutely.
Did insurance quibble? Not one bit.

That's what insurance is for.

 

[Sossigpoker]

And if my vet recommended it, I'd absolutely put Arthmid in there , it's been nothing short of miraculous for my horse , and many others.
Plus Tildren. If this was the vet's recommendation.

 

[Patterdale]

I would leave well alone, but I wouldn’t have x rayed a sound horse in the first place.
I am NOT saying that you’re wrong for having done so, just that I never would.

I think that if we x rayed all sound horses, there would be a high proportion with changes in their joints. We do NOT categorically know how and why they happen, or how much so-called arthritic changes in joints actually affect soundness.

Secondary to that, what we DO know is that the less we poke about in and interfere with joints, the better.

So I would not interfere.

P.S. I am one of these people who historically has fairly sound horses with good longevity (touchwood!).
Whether it’s luck or not I can’t say, but I do think the ‘hands off’ approach has a lot to do with it.
In my experience the more you go looking for problems, the more you find. And the more you involve the vet, the more you see the vet!

 

[ycbm]

.

I would leave well alone, but I wouldn’t have x rayed a sound horse in the first place.
I am NOT saying that you’re wrong for having done so, just that I never would.

I think that if we x rayed all sound horses, there would be a high proportion with changes in their joints. We do NOT categorically know how and why they happen, or how much so-called arthritic changes in joints actually affect soundness.

Secondary to that, what we DO know is that the less we poke about in and interfere with joints, the better.

So I would not interfere.

P.S. I am one of these people who historically has fairly sound horses with good longevity (touchwood!).
Whether it’s luck or not I can’t say, but I do think the ‘hands off’ approach has a lot to do with it.
In my experience the more you go looking for problems, the more you find. And the more you involve the vet, the more you see the vet!

I agree with you Patterdale but sadly when you are in livery you can't ask staff to ignore a fat fetlock that, lame or not, clearly has something going on inside it.

I also really thought arthramid was a great idea and to find all the "evidence" for it is anecdotal is a bit gutting.

In any case, I think he's taking whether he gets arthramid or not right out of our hands. So far he has had a bad reaction to boswellia, and this morning an even worse one to devil's claw. Cross and bitey to groom and tack up. It seems pretty unlikely bute is ever going to be an option, even delivered via Danilon. And there is fluid building up again only a month after the steroids and as I understand it arthramid can't go in with excess fluid in the joint.

And he's still sound for the work he is doing, he schooled big loops last night fine and we had a really nice hack this morning.

He should start 4cyte tomorrow if it arrives, which is tested and proven to improve cartilage, and we'll just take it one day at a time.

He's on borrowed time, that's for sure, because the damage on x ray is significant, just apparently not currently painful.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I agree with you Patterdale but sadly when you are in livery you can't ask staff to ignore a fat fetlock that, lame or not, clearly has something going on inside it.

I don't think any barn staff around here would notice and if they did might be happy to ignore it if the owner was just like "meh" about it.

Wondering how I ended up in such a h*llhole

Anyway, do you all have Adequan over there? Or an equivalent? It's an IM injection. Sorry if I missed this already being brought up.

If things set off his stomach could you feed them in conjunction with aloe juice, slippery elm, or marshmallow root? And maybe that'd work?

 

[doodle]

I was given eqioxx for my ulcer prone horse instead of danilon. That was a couple of years ago and it was just becoming available in tablet form rather than iv. It is just a tablet in their feed.

My vet always says you need to treat the horse in front of you rather than by xrays. Which would mean leaving well alone if he was sound. However even if he is sound there is something going on as it is swelling. So I would do "something" but im not sure what that something would be. I have only had steroids into a hock which has worked well but a friend's horse is doing very well ok cartrophen. I don't know tho if that would reduce the swelling.

 

[Northern]

I don't think any barn staff around here would notice and if they did might be happy to ignore it if the owner was just like "meh" about it.

Wondering how I ended up in such a h*llhole

Anyway, do you all have Adequan over there? Or an equivalent? It's an IM injection. Sorry if I missed this already being brought up.

If things set off his stomach could you feed them in conjunction with aloe juice, slippery elm, or marshmallow root? And maybe that'd work?

Ah! Adequan is what is labelled as Zycan here For what it's worth, I would rather x-ray and know to plan than ignore. It meant I knew about a bone chip in my mares fetlock and knew immediately what the cause of overnight lameness and swelling was that arose a year after I x-rayed (chip moved into joint ). Charlie will guide you ycbm, knowledge is power.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I also really thought arthramid was a great idea and to find all the "evidence" for it is anecdotal is a bit gutting.

I believe that there is much published clinical data on the efficacy of Arthramid in treating lameness from equine osteo arthritis? My vets, who both keep themselves very up to date describe with latest research, both describe it as a ‘game changer’.

Or do you mean it only has anecdotal evidence in staving off future lameness in a horse which is currently sound?

It is much better that you know what is up with Charlie and what to look out for than flying blind. Just getting the x rays done as you did, even if you choose to treat conservatively, means than you are ahead of the game.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Ah! Adequan is what is labelled as Zycan here For what it's worth, I would rather x-ray and know to plan than ignore. It meant I knew about a bone chip in my mares fetlock and knew immediately what the cause of overnight lameness and swelling was that arose a year after I x-rayed (chip moved into joint ). Charlie will guide you ycbm, knowledge is power.

Ah, I thought Zycan was something else, but I probably just made that up

 

[NinjaPony]

Personally I’d take a punt on the athramid because I’d rather try and treat earlier rather than later. You can then move to a steroid injection as and when he starts showing lameness. You can always move to danilon too; my Welsh A has been retired and on danilon for 10+ years with no ill effects and it’s given him a good quality of life. Hopefully you won’t need to look at that for a while now, but at least with arthritis there are different stages of management/treatment as it progresses. It’s good news that he’s sound right now despite the x rays. You were right to get it done IMO; I couldn’t leave a horse with a fat hock indefinitely.

 

[Irishcob6]

I was given eqioxx for my ulcer prone horse instead of danilon. That was a couple of years ago and it was just becoming available in tablet form rather than iv. It is just a tablet in their feed.

My vet always says you need to treat the horse in front of you rather than by xrays. Which would mean leaving well alone if he was sound. However even if he is sound there is something going on as it is swelling. So I would do "something" but im not sure what that something would be. I have only had steroids into a hock which has worked well but a friend's horse is doing very well ok cartrophen. I don't know tho if that would reduce the swelling.

My horse is also on Equioxx (low grade anti inflammatory). Costs around £100 for a 60 day supply. Small tablet easily hidden in feed and he has been on it over a year now with no issue! Not sure how effective it is for his big issues (arthritis, tendon mineralisation) but I have noticed less windgalls and no throughpin on his hock.

 

[Surbie]

So far he has had a bad reaction to boswellia, and this morning an even worse one to devil's claw. Cross and bitey to groom and tack up.

Given he's an ex-racer, is there a chance he came to you with ulcers?

 

[ycbm]

Given he's an ex-racer, is there a chance he came to you with ulcers?

No symptoms of that at all.
.

 

[BMA2]

My horse has the arthramid into his fetlock after with a substantial windgall...

That was the main sign when that popped up in front at 21

 

[gallopingby]

In humans xray findings do not necessarily corralate with pain - I can't see why horses are any different. I doubt the joint would stand up to a seasons hunting but usual work is probably fine. I would suck it and see ...

Humans frequently have ‘interesting’ things that have happened previously and may only be noticed as part of an investigation for something completely different. In most cases the time lag indicates that there’s little point in further treatment/investigation until there’s a problem. I’d enjoy your horse and manage his routine according to all factors that become relevant.

 

[Sossigpoker]

I didn't realise the evidence for Arthmid was anecdotal only , I thought its efficacy had been well proven?
My cob's hock x-ray isn't pretty at all and this time last year he was lame and sore pretty much all over.
Now my performance vet who does vetting at various big sports horse auction houses says that an average vet wouldn't know there's a problem, that you couldn't believe the x-ray belongs to him when you watch him move , and that about 50% of the sports horses he vets don't move as clean and sound as he does .
Hence why I think it's pretty amazing stuff!

 

[ycbm]

Final update. Please do not comment, I am going to ask admin to remove any comments and lock the thread.

Charlie was absolutely fine, in spite of a dreadful set of x rays, until he wasn't.

Less than 5 weeks after the steroids went in, while on anti-inflammatories and joint supplements, he went lame. Within 3 days he was noticeably lame in walk, the joint was ragingly hot and he was not fully weight bearing on it in the stable. He also went very cuddly and starting sucking parts of my clothing like a dummy and leaning his nose into me and his grooms looking for comfort.

Everyone who has seen the x rays has been shocked he was ever sound. He was in livery, all the staff, me, the person who exercised him when I couldn't, felt he was sound. At the vets, they could only just make him clearly unsound on a 5m circle on hard ground, and as we walked to the xray area the vet said we were hoping to see nothing of note on it.

There are multiple areas of damage on both sides, up the front of the cannon bone, on top of the sesamoid including a loose chip, and through the bearing surface of the joint. When flexed, there is clear impingement of the joint surfaces. This area probably broke down and caused the sudden onset of lameness.

In a front leg joint taking 70% of his weight flexing at every step, it was inconceivable that he could ever come right or be pain free, so he was PTS, a decision I have so far not stopped crying about daily.

He was a beautiful horse. RIP Arabist, my Charlie.
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