As a follow on from irresponsible owners! How can I solve this?

[poiuytrewq]

Bertie is funny with other dogs.
We rarely meet another dog but when we do he barks and go’s at them.
He always has, from a tiny puppy. It was the reason I carried on, at the advice of the trainer with lessons so he could get used to other dogs. He was fab and very happy by lesson two with the others in the class and walking with friends he will loose his sh*t the at first sight but if we walk alongside on leads after a bit is fine.
He is also fine with a few local dogs he’s met before.
If I walk past a new dog though he’s not. I was told to turn away, treat and let the other dog pass.
I can’t keep his attention though, he isn’t interested in a treat (better “emergency” treats?)
We met a guy yesterday who saw he wasn’t happy and he stopped, sat his loose (brilliantly trained!) dog and let me calm and get Berts attention and we then passed no hassle.
So the problem is when we just see and pass a new dog who’s owner, understandably keeps going.
Do I car him to busier places so he does actually see more and get used to it?
He was also fine, a bit worried but ran to me rather than went at them recently when I had him on the yard and the beaters from the shoot came back- un expectedly- so maybe ok at home
Any ideas please? It’s A little set back in an otherwise perfect puppyhood!
I have a friend with a very reactive dog, super keen not to get to that point

 

[meleeka]

Have a look at Southend Dog Training on Instagram or Youtube. They deal with this behaviour all the time and there’s videos etc to help. I don’t think flooding him with the thing that makes him anxious is going to help one bit though.

 

[BallyRoanBaubles]

Bertie is funny with other dogs.
We rarely meet another dog but when we do he barks and go’s at them.
He always has, from a tiny puppy. It was the reason I carried on, at the advice of the trainer with lessons so he could get used to other dogs. He was fab and very happy by lesson two with the others in the class and walking with friends he will loose his sh*t the at first sight but if we walk alongside on leads after a bit is fine.
He is also fine with a few local dogs he’s met before.
If I walk past a new dog though he’s not. I was told to turn away, treat and let the other dog pass.
I can’t keep his attention though, he isn’t interested in a treat (better “emergency” treats?)
We met a guy yesterday who saw he wasn’t happy and he stopped, sat his loose (brilliantly trained!) dog and let me calm and get Berts attention and we then passed no hassle.
So the problem is when we just see and pass a new dog who’s owner, understandably keeps going.
Do I car him to busier places so he does actually see more and get used to it?
He was also fine, a bit worried but ran to me rather than went at them recently when I had him on the yard and the beaters from the shoot came back- un expectedly- so maybe ok at home
Any ideas please? It’s A little set back in an otherwise perfect puppyhood!
I have a friend with a very reactive dog, super keen not to get to that point

Are you still going to training class? In terms of better treats dehydrated liver works wonders

 

[Morwenna]

Is there anywhere you can take him where it’s quieter and you can put some distance between you and other dogs? If you can get him to focus on you when other dogs are around at a distance he is comfortable with you can then gradually reduce the distance. I’m doing this at the moment as mine gets stupidly over-excited when she sees people and wants to go and make friends with everyone. In terms of higher value treats sometimes wet treats work better than dried. You can buy tubes of liver paste or primula cheese for them to lick directly off the end. I make my own pastes and have some reusable silicone tubes that I take with me on walks for an extra high value reward.

 

[skinnydipper]

Have a look at Southend Dog Training on Instagram or Youtube.

You mean that bloke who shocks and chokes dogs?

 

[meleeka]

You mean that bloke who shocks and chokes dogs?

Not in the videos I’ve seen, no.

 

[poiuytrewq]

Have a look at Southend Dog Training on Instagram or Youtube. They deal with this behaviour all the time and there’s videos etc to help. I don’t think flooding him with the thing that makes him anxious is going to help one bit though.

That’s why I haven’t, the training place suggested a few local places to walk him so that he did see other dogs.
Cecil my little dog can be funny but if we are out some where there are loads, shooting or a show he’s fine so I did wonder if it’s because meeting others is a rare thing but no it didn’t really sit right.

 

[skinnydipper]

Not in the videos I’ve seen, no.

He calls them E collars, as if that makes it any better.

Prong collars.

That sort of training isn't for me.

Do that and I'll hurt you.

Do this and I'll stop hurting you.

 

[poiuytrewq]

Are you still going to training class? In terms of better treats dehydrated liver works wonders

I stoped, simply because the clocks changed and I work some afternoons making horses and getting there difficult.
Also he was totally fine with the dogs in the class but still not with other new meetings.

 

[poiuytrewq]

Is there anywhere you can take him where it’s quieter and you can put some distance between you and other dogs? If you can get him to focus on you when other dogs are around at a distance he is comfortable with you can then gradually reduce the distance. I’m doing this at the moment as mine gets stupidly over-excited when she sees people and wants to go and make friends with everyone. In terms of higher value treats sometimes wet treats work better than dried. You can buy tubes of liver paste or primula cheese for them to lick directly off the end. I make my own pastes and have some reusable silicone tubes that I take with me on walks for an extra high value reward.

It’s so quiet by me, I think that’s the problem. He’s not used to seeing other dogs, then randomly one will appear some place we have been a million times and never met one.I can walk a week and not meet a dog.
Oh yes, squeezy cheese treats was a great one when the terriers were small actually. Good shout! Thanks

 

[poiuytrewq]

He calls them E collars, as if that makes it any better.

What would you advise please?

 

[poiuytrewq]

It’s been ok because he’s on a lead and other dogs have been on a lead, until today when someone couldn’t get her dog back and I really thought I need to crack this

 

[skinnydipper]

What would you advise please?

Find an accredited animal behaviourist.

 

[meleeka]

He calls them E collars, as if that makes it any better.

Prong collars.

That sort of training isn't for me.

Do that and I'll hurt you.

Do this and I'll stop hurting you.

No, I’m happy to be corrected, but I’ve certainly never seen them in any of the videos I’ve seen. It’s usually treat based training. What has worked for my dog is understanding that she will feel calmer if she has me to advocate for her. It’s up to me to keep her safe so that she doesn’t feel the need to sort the perceived problem out for herself. Not allowing her to be in front of me has made a massive difference. She doesn’t do treats either, but I’ve inadvertently taught her that the command “in the car” means don’t react and keep walking. I do sound a bit daft saying it when walking, but it works for us.

 

[AmyMay]

I walk a little dog who’s quite reactive with strange dogs. Absolutely fine once introductions have been done (and with her ‘friends’). She thankfully has great recall so will immediately come back when called if I anticipate a problem and she goes back on the lead.

Rightly or wrongly I simply ignore the behaviour (I don’t try a placate and I don’t look at the dog who she’s worried about). I just walk (without rushing) in the direction I was going in. And the situation is quickly diffused. For her it’s big dogs particularly. I think if I had her every day the situation could be quickly resolved. Her owner reprimands her, which I think just heightens the tension.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Here's my view and I expect people will disagree. Most people don't go for it as it sounds complicated, but it only takes moments out of your day. Normal caveats apply, this isn't for very young puppies or dogs with stomach issues.
Most people hit a problem and then go straight to high value food with no prep and then wonder why the stressed dog won't take it, when the dog has not learned what a food reward means and how he can get it.

Start with a hungry dog and start feeding him his normal food from his daily ration, from your hand/pocket for all/any interaction. Even just looking at you. You can marry a marker like 'yes' or a click to desired behavior. You can feed a dog in this way in seconds. Don't think 'I have this amount so I must distribute it evenly over a set amount of time'
'Meh' behavior? No food. Try again.
Glued to you? BOOM! all the food in one go.

Do this for at least a week before trying to train with food. Because if I sat with my feet up on the desk, doing nothing, and my boss just handed me my pay twice a day, I wouldn't do much work.
If you use food as a primary reward for a dog that knows it's going to get fed at set times, you might as well not bother.
If he's not bothered about the food, fine, his choice, try again later. Sometimes food stays in my pocket til next time.
You can only make a positive association using food if the dog understands how he gets the food.

If you start with really high value food for very basic behavior, then you have nowhere to go if you have a real problem. Start with 'gruel' and upgrade to 'caviar' if you need it.

Do **not** flood the dog.

Once the dog knows that looking at/paying attention to you = food/food is life, take the dog somewhere with loads of space and I'll often stay close to the car if I think I'll be somewhere where I need to bung the dog back in the car if another one starts making a beeline over.

I'm not averse to aversive training but most of these dogs are scared/worried and getting after them is just pouring fuel on the fire. If I know a dog understands how to make good choices and is deliberately choosing to ignore me and the good stuff to have a go, that's different and that's when I would consider trying to use the leash or my voice to break the fixation, then immediately reward when attention is back on me.

I do have a reactive female. She is fine at training. Mostly fine away from home. It's generally an issue on her 'patch' due to a bad experience during the imprinting phase which made her very insecure, and at close quarters. If she has space, she's fine. In big groups of dogs, she doesn't even look.
Previously with reactive dogs I would have kept moving at a brisk pace but she is very triggered my movement and prefers to be static and focus on me/food or I will to a hand-touch style heel to get her past something tricky and she will graze my hand with her teeth in frustration. She really wants to look but knows the food will come.

As said advocate for the dog. Don't be passive, step forward, be confident and use your body to block other dogs, stand in front of him, if you are tense and worried, he will be too.

 

[skinnydipper]

No, I’m happy to be corrected, but I’ve certainly never seen them in any of the videos I’ve seen. It’s usually treat based training.

Have a look at this and then have a look at all the problems that pressure on the neck causes, for instance increased intraocular pressure.

https://www.facebook.com/reel/1062205388235501

 

[Clodagh]

Have a look at this and then have a look at all the problems that pressure on the neck causes, for instance increased intraocular pressure.

https://www.facebook.com/reel/1062205388235501

That’s a slip lead? You said he uses a prong collar? I can’t see he’s doing anything wrong there. I expect my dogs to heel, I don’t yank on the line but I’m happy to let them feel it.

 

[skinnydipper]

That’s a slip lead? You said he uses a prong collar? I can’t see he’s doing anything wrong there. I expect my dogs to heel, I don’t yank on the line but I’m happy to let them feel it.

That was the first aversive video that came up just now. I'm not going to spend the evening trawling through them all. Just do a search Southend Dog trainer E collar, prong collar, etc.

He is choking the dog. Why would anyone want to do that?

 

[poiuytrewq]

I will read all these through tomorrow
Thanks for replies!

 

[Chucho]

We are in a similar situation @poiuytrewq in that it is v quiet where we live, so seeing other dogs is a surprise and our young girl took for a while to being very unsure when she saw other dogs out and about. She's an extremely good communicator with other dogs, and very sociable, but struggled with how dogs behave on the lead (i.e. attached to a person walking straight at her). It started during a difficult first season and we've been working on it since.

Similar to @CorvusCorax we start by working on pairing a word in the house with food. Good food. Practising 10+ reps about 5 times a day. For doing nothing at all but paying me attention. I use a calm word like goooooooood to keep things calm. As it helps me stay relaxed too. The association has to be super strong before you take it on the road. When they hear the magic word, head has to whip round to you from whatever they're doing. Then take it on the road and practise your reps when seeing nothing at all. Then, every once in a while, using it when we see another dog to get attention and change direction away from the dog / go round / put distance in between. Still doing the reps at home. I avoided all dogs until it was really solid. Now we stop and watch, magic word, reward, move on. I play with the distance we are at. If I have to say the word and she can't look around at me (I put the food in her mouth anyway), or is hard mouthed, I'm too close. If we're at a good distance, she'll turn around when she hears the word. I'll know we're winning when she sees a dog and looks to me before I say the word. She does this with other things she sees already so I know we're on our way there.

Our other puppy is a boisterous lad and finds the world VERY exciting. When he sees another dog, he just wants to play. So I have a tug toy I play with him at home and take out on walks so that he plays with me instead of yearning for the other dog. His desire to play could easily turn into frustrated barking. Again, it's something we practise together at home so there's an element of learned behaviour to it to make it normal for him to redirect to playing with me. Once his attention is on me I can move him where ever I want and calm him down again. This works better for him because he's overexcited rather than unsure.

I generally find the more time I invest at home into normalising them giving me attention, the more they automatically focus on me when out and about. It sounds obvious, but in the past I've just tried to fix things on the road and it takes way longer than if you properly embed the behaviours at home first.

 

[cbmcts]

Like Chucho and CC, i do all the work at home/before there's an issue and rather than trying to stop a behaviour, I aim to replace it with an acceptable behaviour instead. So if I see something that is likely to make the hairy imbecile react, I ask for a watch me if we aren't able to keep moving or my preferred one, is a tight 'obedience heel - glued to my leg, looking into my face as we go past the many, many things that he would react to. it's not a quick fix and it took a long time to get the reliability in place but now that it's there, it really works. We're now able to walk through/past anything even tyres

PS Southend dog training are to be avoided IME - they are fairly local to me and I've seen them in action from the very beginning. Lets just say that as trainers they were ineffective years ago, now they've drunk their own koolaid and are positively dangerous. I've had to deal with the dogs they've 'trained' when they come into rescue...you can't touch their collars normally.

 

[skinnydipper]

If I walk past a new dog though he’s not. I was told to turn away, treat and let the other dog pass.

Distraction doesn't change how he feels about another dog and that is what you need to work on

If you start trying to shovel in food or treats when he is already reacting/over threshold you are rewarding the wrong behaviour.

 

[poiuytrewq]

I’ve had a quick read through but do intend to sit down and look properly when we are home.

As with Churcho I feel like it’s more of a surprise- almost spook than anything.
The trainer we were working with is a very good, highly recommended. It was their advice to go to other places, not to meet and say hello but to practice attention keeping with a little more going on.

Distraction doesn't change how he feels about another dog and that is what you need to work on

If you start trying to shovel in food or treats when he is already reacting/over threshold you are rewarding the wrong behaviour.

The turn away, treat was if he didn’t react. It was an instant turn before he did anything.

 

[CorvusCorax]

It doesn't matter if it's a spook or not, a settled dog will think 'Oopsie, what a shock' and go on with his or her business, not spark up.

The aim of the game is that the dog looks to you before all else and should be so into you that it doesn't matter what else is happening, you are the happy place.

The advice from the trainer about going to different places isn't bad, but somewhere with space, not hotching with off leash/OOC dogs, and the aim isn't to do an actual walk and see what you come across, it's to work on the focus/engagement. If one goes 'sod this, I just want to go for a walk' and the dog has a bad experience, then all the previous training goes out the window.

You'll tire most dogs more with short, intense focus training than a three-day camel hike.

 

[poiuytrewq]

I’ve had a quick read through but do intend to sit down and look properly when we are home.

As with Churcho I feel like it’s more of a surprise- almost spook than anything.
The trainer we were working with is a very good, highly recommended buy and I’d kind of forgotten this until reading a comment above there was one day, the last lesson I’d booked that didn’t go so well, and I felt really uncomfortable about.
So maybe I’ll look elsewhere.

 

[poiuytrewq]

It doesn't matter if it's a spook or not, a settled dog will think 'Oopsie, what a shock' and go on with his or her business, not spark up.

The aim of the game is that the dog looks to you before all else and should be so into you that it doesn't matter what else is happening, you are the happy place.

The advice from the trainer about going to different places isn't bad, but somewhere with space, not hotching with off leash/OOC dogs, and the aim isn't to do an actual walk and see what you come across, it's to work on the focus/engagement. If one goes 'sod this, I just want to go for a walk' and the dog has a bad experience, then all the previous training goes out the window.

You'll tire most dogs more with short, intense focus training than a three-day camel hike.

Yep that was the advice, not to go for a walk or to meet but to do a bit of heel work and just basic stuff we did in lessons with other things in the back ground rather than endless empty fields and silent roads.

Worth doing them maybe?

 

[poiuytrewq]

How would just walking him on a lead alongside unknown on lead dogs be? Did that with friends pup a while ago and when we got home they were able to play loose together.

 

[CorvusCorax]

My best advice is just to pick a system and stick to it instead of mixing things up/freestyling it with different bits of advice.

 

[poiuytrewq]

Here's my view and I expect people will disagree. Most people don't go for it as it sounds complicated, but it only takes moments out of your day. Normal caveats apply, this isn't for very young puppies or dogs with stomach issues.
Most people hit a problem and then go straight to high value food with no prep and then wonder why the stressed dog won't take it, when the dog has not learned what a food reward means and how he can get it.

Start with a hungry dog and start feeding him his normal food from his daily ration, from your hand/pocket for all/any interaction. Even just looking at you. You can marry a marker like 'yes' or a click to desired behavior. You can feed a dog in this way in seconds. Don't think 'I have this amount so I must distribute it evenly over a set amount of time'
'Meh' behavior? No food. Try again.
Glued to you? BOOM! all the food in one go.

Do this for at least a week before trying to train with food. Because if I sat with my feet up on the desk, doing nothing, and my boss just handed me my pay twice a day, I wouldn't do much work.
If you use food as a primary reward for a dog that knows it's going to get fed at set times, you might as well not bother.
If he's not bothered about the food, fine, his choice, try again later. Sometimes food stays in my pocket til next time.
You can only make a positive association using food if the dog understands how he gets the food.

If you start with really high value food for very basic behavior, then you have nowhere to go if you have a real problem. Start with 'gruel' and upgrade to 'caviar' if you need it.

Do **not** flood the dog.

Once the dog knows that looking at/paying attention to you = food/food is life, take the dog somewhere with loads of space and I'll often stay close to the car if I think I'll be somewhere where I need to bung the dog back in the car if another one starts making a beeline over.

I'm not averse to aversive training but most of these dogs are scared/worried and getting after them is just pouring fuel on the fire. If I know a dog understands how to make good choices and is deliberately choosing to ignore me and the good stuff to have a go, that's different and that's when I would consider trying to use the leash or my voice to break the fixation, then immediately reward when attention is back on me.

I do have a reactive female. She is fine at training. Mostly fine away from home. It's generally an issue on her 'patch' due to a bad experience during the imprinting phase which made her very insecure, and at close quarters. If she has space, she's fine. In big groups of dogs, she doesn't even look.
Previously with reactive dogs I would have kept moving at a brisk pace but she is very triggered my movement and prefers to be static and focus on me/food or I will to a hand-touch style heel to get her past something tricky and she will graze my hand with her teeth in frustration. She really wants to look but knows the food will come.

As said advocate for the dog. Don't be passive, step forward, be confident and use your body to block other dogs, stand in front of him, if you are tense and worried, he will be too.

Thank you! They did say at training class that a dog never needs to eat from a bowl. It all has to be earned.
He’s a slight worrier, you only have to look at his ears to see if he’s unsure about something.
He’s super happy to be around the farm so maybe it’s my fault for not having made more effort to go new places. Dogs here have been fine, strangely but I guess that’s because he’s already chilled.