Ask a Parelli student....no holds barred....you asked, I giveth.

A question for TIC.

What is your opinion about the use of safety helmets and body protectors?

This was quoted on the COTH forum, concerning the use of safety equipment. I find it hard to believe.



"You are quite right - helmets are fabulous things and they save many lives. Tragically though, people who ARE wearing helmets also die or suffer serious head injuries in accidents with horses.

Our program is intended to address the safety problem at its root - which is behavioral - rather than address the symptoms of it. Our message is about developing the relationship with the horse, and the savvy level of the rider, so that unsafe behavior is addressed long before the rider gets on the horse - rather than allowing the unsafe situations to continue to occur and hope that the helmet, body protector, etc, will protect us from the consequences.

The reason you do not see our people wearing helmets is because we try to teach people that rather than be brave because they are wearing a a helmet to protect them, they would be better off not riding until their horse is behaving safely.

People have called us brave for not wearing helmets, but we say they are a lot braver than we are. We would not get on their horse until we had addressed the issues that cause it to behave in unsafe ways.
We hope this helps,

From the Faculty, Parelli Centers
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I think if you look at the previous page TIC has bowed out of this thread for a rest. However... I organised a Parelli clinic many moons ago at a big equestrian centre. A lady who was a "level 2 student" was riding her horse when her girth strap broke, her saddle came off and she landed on her back in the arena, her head narrowly missing the boards at the side. At least she was wearing a hat, so whatever daft comments the Parelli office might make, some Parelli students understand that accidents can happen.
Mind you, there are a lot of people who aren't Parelli people riding without hats, it seems to be rather a dressagy thing to do as well.
 
Re the hat issue - You MUST be joking, right ?? :eek::eek:

A whole other argument, but when you think that a lot of UK horse owners would like to see hats become law here (please don't take offence non- hat users), this is another nail in the coffin for Parelli in the UK.

Good god above, ANY horse that has a personality, and is NOT a robot, could spook, buck, or whatever else at any time. This is scary - it says to me " don't be stupid, our horses are so robotically perfect, hats are not needed". Arrogance and stupidity - leaving themselves very wide open for a lawsuit.

Ha !!
 
Well done T~I~C, been a very informative, interesting thread that I have enjoyed muchly. Hope that you will stay on as an H and H forum user. You have not been put off by difficult questions and have kept your self focussed. V admirable. Hope that you get some well deserved rest and enjoy your horses too, I suspect they will have been missing you.

:D :D :D
 
Oh I am not done, not by a long shot!
Just need a break.:cool:

I have done my best to explain parelli with out my opinion. everyone else has had the opportunity to say thier opinion so I want my turn too:o

I just need to compile my thoughts, without the promt of a question.

plus I have a few PM's to reply to, a few emails and such.

Thanks you guys for all your support and thought provoking discussion.

Boots an helmets required!:cool:
 
Oh B+++++ I shortcutted to the end of this thread and realise I now have to go back and read 20 odd pages, consolation prize , I think TIC talks sense.
 
Mike007 said:
Oh B+++++ I shortcutted to the end of this thread and realise I now have to go back and read 20 odd pages, consolation prize , I think TIC talks sense.
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Don't you just hate that?:eek:

'eh, I got some sense, but if you ask my mother, not much!:rolleyes:

I think you will not be disapointed. Not in the sense of "oooh let me start parelli tomorrow", but in the sense of "oh, I see why people do NH or parelli, and while "I" don't need it, I'm glad you get enjoyment out of it, and wish you much success"

Sad thing that so few people are aware of this wonderous journey we all took together, to come to an mutual agreement to co-exist, and for some of us, become friends!:cool:
 
Graureiter said:
A question for TIC.

What is your opinion about the use of safety helmets and body protectors?

This was quoted on the COTH forum, concerning the use of safety equipment. I find it hard to believe.
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Pat and Linda are "pro choice" as it were. Linda has made a statement about it quite a while back, when that was a NEW letter. it is quite old ya know. Anyways, Pat and Linda are not our parents. We should all use good judgement. And while it would appear the responsible thing to have done, would be to say that of course it is safer to ride in a helmet, "ACCIDENTS" happen in the blink of an eye, and it is too late to put your helmet on, once your brain is an omlete, they didn't. Only they can answer as to why. But, they are pro choice for adults at least, and so am I. I don't know thier offical position on minors at thier ranch.

I do however, state to all of my students to get a helmet, I need my paycheck!

For me, I ride in one when hacking out, or on unpredictable horses, and I know it is incredibly stupid of me not to wear it all the time. I NEVER wore one, pre parelli. I should wear it all the time, and i know it.
 
JanetGeorge said:
I watched the video right through - and wish I hadn't. I now feel sick and angry - and helpless! I've signed the petition - and I'll spread the link - but sadly it's not enough!

The only way to end this horrendous abuse will be legislation - and that would require a massive campaign in the USA (as well as international pressure) to target the politicians- from Obama down! And it also needs a campaign against the sponsors - particularly the big, international companies. Much as I hate the loony AR organisations like PETA and IFAW, this is something they do well! What are they doing about it??
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http://www.peta.org/factsheet/files/factsheetdisplay.asp?ID=69

YET it is not one of thier campaigns



Here is one to vomit over. A wild horse jockey tells us his "humorous" view of the horse's opinion of the event, and the horses set of "rules" Warning, this one will get your blood boiling, to the point of not caring if you go to jail for what you will want to say to him.:mad:
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/422561/understanding_wild_horse_racing_official.html?cat=14

And IFAW appears to be unaware
http://www.ifaw.org/ifaw_united_states/join_campaigns/index.php

This one, Shark, was THE only one doing anything about it, they are the ones with the film, however, half of thier website is missing now, or broken links. these guys have gotten them selves beaten bloody for 'hidden camera's' and it was because of thier actions that the prison rodeo was "cancelled', so I am now worried that something bad has happened to them.
http://www.sharkonline.org/rodeocrueltywildhorserace.mv


Let me say this about this petition, is the originator knows full well the emense responsibility they have taken on, and has assured us they will see it through. i would ask them some questions, but in the light of my current, hidden identity, I must refrain, but promise to flood them with questions when the signatures are obtained. cross my fingers hope to die.
:cool:
 
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actions-speak-louder said:
It would be nice TIC, if you were to continue with your free unconditional horse help on this forum, because despite everything you have a lot to give, but I feel you may have to keep your anonymity to achieve this. That maybe a big challenge for you.

So cheers and get some sleep.

Or maybe do a phoenix.
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Hmmm, thank you. I am going to answer cautiously to this, as I don't want anyone here to think, I am patronizing them, that "I" think I am 'helping" them with thier horses. I come in with the understanding that each of you are happy within your skills and results, unless you actually tell me otherwise. IF, there is anyone who has personal questions for thier own situation, as a few have, feel free to PM me and I will give you my email address.

so far I have seen nothing here that suggests anyone wanted info in the sense of getting help, as opposed to morbid curiosity about parelli, just so they know what the heck they are looking at. With that said, I know from PM's, that many are finding it educating for themselves by reading and following, and I am certainly happy to have provided my share in that.

IF, someone did feel they wanted to post a personal querry here, I think it would be ok, but I would likely not be my authentic self. there are alot of glaring eyes here, and I am sure, we both would instantly be scrutinized. I quite honestly, don't have that in me. Kinda like a mouse walking into a cat house with cat nip, the felines are waiting to pounce, to use the mouse as a play thing or dinner!:eek:

your right, my ananimity is already cracking, I had another one, get it right. she has enjoyed this thread and promises to stay quiet. that makes 3, but one I told freely as she was from here, not a parelli student, and wouldn't ever be able to guess. she has promised that she is great under torture, and will never LEAK!


AGAIN, thank you!

I do have, in my puny lilttle brain, an idea hatching, as I am planning my reveal. I also will notify my webhoster, as I think the traffic jam may be a shocker. As of now, I have a small but dedicated group of followers on my blog, whom I value greatly. I love writing, probably because I love TALKING. Sometimes, but not often after hours of chatting with friends (personal not horse) we just look at each other like, 'what is that it, we finally run out of things to talk about?" and without having to say a word, we laugh......NOT!:cool:
 
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tongue~n~cheek said:
there are alot of glaring eyes here, and I am sure, we both would instantly be scrutinized. I quite honestly, don't have that in me. Kinda like a mouse walking into a cat house with cat nip, the felines are waiting to pounce, to use the mouse as a play thing or dinner!:eek:

AGAIN, thank you!
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It's nice to see someone being open minded on here. I am a traditionalist but have dabbled in other methods depending on the problem. NOT ONE method is correct. People are entitled to their opinions but that is all they are opinions. No one is right or wrong.
 
Duddy07 said:
It's nice to see someone being open minded on here. I am a traditionalist but have dabbled in other methods depending on the problem. NOT ONE method is correct. People are entitled to their opinions but that is all they are opinions. No one is right or wrong.
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thank you. i hate narrow mindedness. questions keep you honest. not faith. i am actually sad right now at some people being so nasty toward one another in the name of being positive. mere hipocrites. nothing less. and no one notices it. no one questions it. those that have no problem dictating to another how to think, feel and behave, are the LAST people who should be preaching on the subject. i say, you don't like it, dont read it. i want to talk about this, need to talk about it, and how dare you tell me to shut up. I have met hundreds of great traditional trainers/riders/owners, and used to be one myself. I also learn from many NH people, not just the parelli's. I also have my won methods. My whole world was just turned upside down over this, and yet, I like it. I am certainly tired of answering questions till 2 in the morning everday, but I like that this was a place of peace, in the middle of a war. for a while, this was my sanctuary in the midst of madness. I promise to make good on my promise. the petition is growing at a wonderful rate, and I owe it all to this thread and my new friends.

I learned I dont ever want to be famous.:cool:
 
I hope you can help me. I did ask this question on another thread and was rudely told off!! can you tell me exactly what mr parelli was apologising for over his demo at the FOTH, and what do you believe his "mistakes" were? parelli have "admitted mistakes" according to the H & H. Perhaps you can clarify what from a parelli point of view these mistakes were?
 
mybaileysglide said:
TIC This has been an excellent thread and as yet I have not contributed my opinion. Can you tell are mr and mrs parelli aware of this thread? and their general opinion on it?
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I honestly have no idea who all knows about this thread, regardless of Pat/Linda, thier staff, instructors, savvy club members or students.

only a small handfull of members have mentioned it on the savvy forum, yet no asks them about it, or further mentions it. I am sure they don't speak much of it out of fear too, but that is only my speculation.

So far I have recieved no "parelli police" calls or emails. but two fellow members have figured out who I am, and we talk about it. they have promised not to rat me out, and I trust them 100%. I suspect at least one of the other members who have mentioned the thread knows who I am. we have bantered back and forth a number of times over the years.

Quite honestly, any member who has spent any amount of time on the forum should be able to figure it out with little effort.

the first one to tell me she knew who I was, knew it right off the bat. the other had a few on her list to choose from. and did a little sherlock holming and came to the conclusion it is ME.


anyways, since I have no idea if pat and linda know about this thread, i obviously have no idea what they think about it, and I can't even begin to speculate, as i don't know them personally.

I would hope, HOPE, they can see the good of it, as I, an many others do.:cool:
 
mybaileysglide said:
I hope you can help me. I did ask this question on another thread and was rudely told off!! can you tell me exactly what mr parelli was apologising for over his demo at the FOTH, and what do you believe his "mistakes" were? parelli have "admitted mistakes" according to the H & H. Perhaps you can clarify what from a parelli point of view these mistakes were?
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Again, I cannot stress this enough. I am in NO way affiliated with the ANY part of the Parelli organization, other than that of a L4 home study student.

I will tell you what "I" think he was apologising for based on his exact words. nothing more. I am NOT going to put my 'hopes" into my interpretation, as many people have. I do not see it, for what I wanted as an apology or explanation. I see it, "exactly" as it is written. I will not read between the lines, as some have done either. Fact is, it is what it is, and it did lilttle if anything to help ME figure out how I feel about the whole thing, other than possibly make it worse, FOR ME.


His exact words are:

".....I would like to apologise to the audience members who were "confused" by the demonstration methods that I chose in the moment"......"I realize that when my microphone fell off, I should have stopped the demonstration, and talked to you about it"

Here, based on his EXACT words, he is apologising for causing confusion by not explaining what/why he was doing what he was doing.

"....some people had difficulty trusting me in this situation, and for that I am sad and apologise for allowing confusion to evolve...."

To me, this says he is sad people didn't trust him, via confusion, again due to no explanation. And that possibly if they "understood" they would trust him.
FOR ME, trust is earned, and not by someone buying a ticket and walking thru the door. Yes, his students, by differing degrees, already trust him, as he has done nothing but do things to earn our trust over time. But for those with NO or LITTLE prior experiences with him, not knowing him, an explanation would have done little to nothing, IMO. MANY students who do trust him, would have been confused with an explanation. Some understand without an explanation. Some understand, and STILL disagree, like ME.
At this point of the letter, TO ME, it does not appear he is saying sorry for anything other than not explaining what he was doing.

Paraphrasing.....He goes on to explain that this was an extremely difficult horse, dealing with issues for a long time, and that he had to "prove to him he did not need to fear it"


"You have to be able to match the energy, not do more or less than the horse, and that takes passive persistance."

This is more tricky for sure. This, for better or worse, IS his explanation.
It of course will be easier for "students" to understand what he is saying, because we have been taught the meaning of those terms, and how they apply to teqniques. For everyone else, even some students, this is a very general and vague discpription, using general concepts, and NOT explaining how exactly it applies to the method he chose. this is where, we as students, are somewhat able to 'get it" but it comes no where CLOSE to explaining how that chosen method was working.

now in efforts to be fair to my self here, honestly, it would probably take me hours to explain his explanation. his words are clear and if you can draw on your own experiences it will help for sure. I will likely do more harm than good here, but I will try to do this in a brief manner.

Ya know what, NO. FOR ME, this is going just a tad to far into defending him for what he did. He did this, and he alone should be truly explaing what he meant by that, not me. That fact that he didn't, he and he alone has to stand judgement for that, not me. It really is something that would take time to explain, and I have spent plenty of time defending the program, which I have no problem doing, it is a wonderful program. but this will push me just a tad too far out on the limb defending the MAN. if you want further explanation, go to their website and send them an email.

He goes on to explain more
'there were several times that he gave me signs that he was changing, and then he would try another tactic"


FOR ME, this is when he SHOULD have stopped then. While we will never know now, I beleive that pat could have been just as successful, if he took the whole weekend to "prove" to that horse that he would take his "time".
But that didn't happen, and while successful in the end, at what cost?
The cost to the horse, the audience, the students, the program, thier image, the relationship with world at large.

thier program is all about "the relationship" yet how many relationships were shattered that night? How much trust was broken? How many principles broken or abandoned? How many students lost? Both current and future. He went the ultimate mile, for someone going the other direction. Something he says he won't do.

He goes on:
"blah blah blah, vet, horse OK, bridling successfully now, even back to showing, blah blah blah, not everyone parelli, blah blah" nothing relevent there.

"unfortunately this situation has given those with anti-parelli sentiments "fuel for the fire" to contadict our methods...."

UM, people only contradict them selves, not others.:rolleyes: so it appears to others that HE contradicted HIMSELF, and THAT is what added fuel to the fire.;)

"....I am sorry i created an uncomfortable environment for some of the attendees"


I think he is genuinly sorry for this. I take him at his word here. he says he is sorry for this and I belelive him.

"blah blah horse doing great, blah blah" again not relevent to question.

"I thank everyone who supports parelli"

I friggin hope so. Thank you pat for saying that, and your welcome

"sincerely pat parelli' the end

Hope this helps:cool:

oh....i don't get HHO mag, so I have no idea what so ever is said in there. sorry.
 
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mybaileysglide said:
Thankyou for your reply and yes, that does seem to make perfect sense. By the way, great profile picture!!! your horse?:)
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Your welcome, glad to help out anyway I can.

No, I am here incognito, if I used one of my horses, everyone (parelli) would know who I am. it is a pic of a wild mustang though:cool:
 
mrsK said:
Huge kudos to Tongue~n~Cheek for her efforts in answering questions with open honesty. She has clearly shown the way forward and we can all learn from her
QUOTE]Quoted from savvy forum

Thanks a BUNCH. I appreciate it bunches and bunches and bunches!:cool:
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I saw a couple of posts yesterday on the savvy forum that I want to say,

Awwwwwww THANK YOU. I guess I made a reference here early on in the thread about having my big girl knickers securely fastened, and being ready and capable for this challenge. I wrote so much, that I honesely barely remember the mentioning. I hope the offer of a few new sets of knickers waiting for me in savvy club is a good offer. I would love nothing more than to talk about this over there.

Infact, I talk about it ALL the time. talk about inter-method relationships and the need for dropping ALL defensiveness in order to talk to one another. Sadly when I do, not many read it, talk about it, or it having a lasting effect for those who do.

Sammy, i read your post, and will glady pose the question here tonight, as I am late for work AGAIN. I can't cut and paste it though. No offense to you, as I TOTALLY understand what you are saying, but I would like to re word it so that it will come off the right way here. As written, in my very honest opinion, it will not be well recieved. In fact, it will start a fight. Big one. it is an honest question though, so I will ask people here for you. However, it is an 'argument' brought up OFTEN by NH students or sympathisers, right now as we speak, during this heated time on other threads and forums, and the argument is not going well. so I would like to see if it CAN be brought up in a better way, not to cause a fight.:cool:
 
planete said:
Hello Tongue-n-Cheek. Thank you for posting here. I am afraid Mr.P. has thoroughly put off quite a few people. It would be good if it was made extremely clear that he is only the last and not the best natural horsemanship practitioner (just the loudest). He has borrowed from a lot of horse trainers and turned it into a circus. Anybody genuinely interested should try one of Mark Rashid books for example. A huge dose of common sense, love and respect for the horse, and a few digs at the way some use 'natural horsemanship methods'. There have been, and are, some brilliant horse people who do use natural horsemanship methods to improve the life of horses and the understanding humans have of them. In all fairness, this needs to be recognised.
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Thanks for pointing me in the direction of Mark Rachid - I found this article and his explanation for technique very interesting :)

http://www.markrashid.com/docs/questions.pdf
 
I'm confused, what question did I ask you again? I did msg u just after taking my pills so it could of been absolute garble. I did have a question I was burning to ask you though and I was sure I didn't pm it to you earlier, but I think I will pm you now just to make sure. Could you also pm me back the pm I sent to you earlier. Oh no, this means I am dementing already.

*wanders back off into La La land in the hope of finding some sense in there*
 
Ok totally disregard my last point, phew I am not going demented. I have just understood, you were not referring to Sammy as in me, but Sammy as in some one else!!! gotcha :D sorry for being so dosey :)
 
I have put alot of thought into asking this question, that a savvy memeber wanted asked of you all. As written it was long, so some paraphrasing is included. I also, having seen this question asked many times in the past with, well lets say not very favorable results, as in, not recieved well, seen as argumentative. Thus the mudslinging ensues. So, I hope I get this right, and suppose this would be the flip side of my experiment. First can I answer questions, second can I ask them, without ignighting a flame. so here goes....keep in mind this IS a sincere question, no flaming intended.....


1. Speaking as someone that has been run over by a horse like a football player at the Super Bowl, I see a huge need for the snap and its effectiveness. If the horse that ran over me, when I had only a lead rope in my hand, had a healthey respect for backing up and knew the yo yo game then I feel I would have been saved a trip to the dr to check for a concussion. I guess I'm tryng to understand how those with out a snap or good back up, defends themselves with a flimsey rope. How do you handle a horse crowding you? Do you just get out of the way?

2. The inside of the horses mouth is the most sensitive area on their body.We (humans) inflict pain there more than anywhere else when bits are used incorectly, in the intrest of saying that the snap is abusive, I don't understand why it doesn't apply across the board to everything done to horses... spurs used incorrectly, crops used incorectly, etc. Honestly, why does the parelli program get so much focus, and not these other types of abuse when they arise?

3. I will ask the Mark Rahid question when the link to the article is posted for me to either copy and paste, or attach a link to it. K?


So in the intrest of my answering questions as honestly and non defensively as possible, I hope that someone can reciprocate equally for me? Me personally, I know the answer to the question already, but don't want to speak for anyone else.

Here goes, I am hitting the submit reply button......now.....:eek::cool:
 
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