assaulted by farmer over bridleway

I think people are a bit wrapped up in the English way of doing things here. In Scotland rights of ways are nothing like they are down South.

Scottish people are used to being able to ride pretty much anywhere and down any track they so desire....I know, I did it as a kid. We all knew that the landowner could come and ask us to leave, but they very rarely did, generally they just waved.

In Mandy's case, one which seems to have gone a bit overboard, she must know that this is and has always been the case in Scotland and if you actually want a track to be classed as a Byway, RUPP whatever, then you have to go through the council and await their judgement. The landowner is not welcoming to you, and it isn't a public right of way, therefore you should do as he says and stay off!
 
Umm Tia, not sure if I've missed something but mandy's id says North Yorkshire, now I know that's not down south but was still part of england last time I checked?
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May I make one other point clear. In 1949 every Parish Council in the country was told to disclose every Right of Way within their Parish and record the status of it.

Because of the numbers of Farmers and Landowners on the Parish Councils at that time many where not recorded and where recorded many where recorded of lower rights than what they where.

In those days there was far less traffic on the roads and horse riders did not bother to object for a number of additional local reasons.

This is why if you look at some Public rights of Way they may be recorded as a Public Footpath in one parish and where they go accross the boundary they are recorded as a Bridleway in the next Parish.

Although horse riders may have their own agreement with a landowner this will not benefit future horse riders.

This is why we do much historic research to find out what status these tracks where prior to 1949 and in many cases we can demonstrate that they where a Public right of Way of higher status than what they are at present recorded as.

I do not believe it is sensible to put either ones horses or ones own life at risk but I do believe that we need to ensure that where there is doubt over the status of a route that one should research it and if the evidence is sufficient claim it as a right of way for future generations of riders to use.

So I am afraid that Farmers and Landowners have not been proved to whiter than white in the past.
 
PMSL!! I saw Torryvald's reply and became confuddled
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Well if it is in England then I would still say the same thing to be honest - it is someone else's land and if the track has no classification then until the council decide then I don't believe that Mandy has any rights over his land.
 
In my view this confrontation was unnecessary. You had lodged an appeal about the right of way but wouldn't wait for the outcome. You knew there would probably be problems using it but you went there anyway.

Regarding the landowner using force to stop you, he may actually have a right in law to use sufficient force to stop someone trespassing on his land. This matter is not quite as simple as it first appears. If the Police charge the landowner with Common Assault & the case goes to court the landowner may be able to put forward a case for what he did & the case may be dismissed. The Crown Prosecution Service may also decide to drop the case prior to court due to the Land trespass issues.

You had lodged an appeal, why oh why did you not wait for an outcome, this whole confrontation was unnecessary. You mentioned 'Fight for what's right', it doesn't mean literally.

Oh, just because generally there isn't a power of arrest for civil trespass doesn't mean it is not unlawful.

I want rights of way to stay open as much as anyone but why make if confrontational when it doesn't have to be.
 
I don't think the farmer was right to try to pull the OP off their horse, his land or not, that is not civilised behaviour at all.

OP hope your claim to get this path reinstated to a bridleway is successful, sounds like you have good grounds, so go for it.

As for the tresspass issue, you are quite correct, tresspass is a civil matter and the police will not be interested one iota in arresting you no matter what fuss the farmer makes. If he wants to deal with it, he has to press a civil case.

Too many land owners have swallowed up rights of way in this country and it is about time people were put in their place. I don't advocate riding on other people's land where there is not a history of use, but this is clearly not the case here and I personally think the farmer is being very miserable and uncharitable.
 
Just a thought guys - if any of you know anyone connected with conveyancing (buying and selling houses if you don't know what I'm on about) in that area surely they can check legal ownership of a certain piece of land with the land registry or you could try the land registry directly yourself. It may be that the Farmer has been told he actually owns the land as he has just purchased what is surrounding it and it may not be definitive in his deeds. If you find anything out and want a bit of advice let me know as I work in the right place!!!
 
as many of you know i was involved in a similar incident a few weeeks ago except in my case the guy wasnt the land owner and attempted to stab the horses with an metal object. however we have involved the accessand rights of way people and they have found us an alernative permissive route (large crates beer to that landowner) which was great. The police are still invoved because no one has the right to use 'unreasonable' force in such an incident. I am sorry for mandy i dont think i would have provoked him like that. i work for a land owner in our area and had been told we could use certain tracks as some paths through our place are used already.
 
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I'd get in touch with the BHS on exactly what your rights are during the time that your council are making up their minds - do you have a local bridleway group? You might get them organised to ride the track all together. If the council/BHS say you have the right to ride the track at the moment, I think I might get a solicitors letter sent to the farmer telling him that you (and others) intend to keep riding the track, and warning him of prosecution if he attempts to block/assault/intimidate you.
Good luck!

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what? set up a group and ALL go along and ride on private land?? I cannot believe I have just read that.

This is what gives horse riders bad names, whilst the majority of us understand and abide by country lore, so many think they have an automatic right of way. Then they wonder why farmers don't want them on there.

Yes, the farmer does have a right to counter prosecute for tresspassing. And in reporting him you have admitted what you did. You antagonised him and tried to get onto his land. I am sorry, but for that I would be very suprised if the farmer didnt have a very good case against you and prosecute.
 
Rufus did say "If the council/BHS say you have the right to ride the track at the moment". Don't think the intention was just to go for it regardless of the law
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as many of you know i was involved in a similar incident a few weeeks ago except in my case the guy wasnt the land owner and attempted to stab the horses with an metal object. .

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....a couple of weeks ago you said he was waving it about to reinforce his point..sorry, but I hate inaccuracy and sensationalism
 
Sorry but im a farmer and i get so p*ssed off when people think they can just do as they please and ride all over my land. If there is a right of way dissagreement you should not have tried to ride on it. Plus when the farmer asked you not to ride on it you still tried to go forward??

Yes he should not have pulled you and bruised you but i do not agree with you, and it makes my blood boil when people think they can go anywhere and everywhere on MY land!!!
 
I have to say, I do completely agree with you. I have a number of beautiful trails on my land and I do offer them to be used by my neighbours and am very happy for them to use them.....however it really does miff me when strangers just wander through them.

We even had an ATV come wandering down from our Top Woods......all over our hay meadows! I was a tiny bit irritated but my big black dog seemed to scare the pants off them and they haven't been back.
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I understand how you feel about wanting to ride down the track but I can't understand why you would want to continue to ride a track that you know is going to cause resentment and confrontation? I know I wouldn't.

We have footpaths on our farm that wouldn't really be accessible to hack down. However, we've had riders decide to take it upon themselves to go for a gallop across our stubble fields. If we confront them we are told to "get a life". Problem is, we don't know if our insurance would pick up the tab should a rider fall off or horse put it's foot in a rabbit hole etc on our land. Trespassing or not, these days, people claim wherever they can. Further more, it's not THEIR land to ride on, it's ours. I wonder how they'd react if I were to ride my horse over their gardens? They'd not be happy.

From riders to walkers to dog owners....Joe Public seems to treat private farmer's land as some sort of common land, open to all. It is not the case. Unless you get a judgement giving you access to ride this track, I would stay off it before you're charged with trespassing. I'm sure I wouldn't be charging him with common assualt either. One could argue provocation as you were well aware of his feelings towards you riding the track before you embarked on your journey.

Sorry, I don't mean to offend you in any way, but as a land owner I am sick to death of people locally to us thinking our land is an extension of their gardens, dustbins or compost heap!
 
Round of applause cl_aire!

It infuriates me beyond all belief too. "It's only farmland" is what we're often told. Such little respect for the countryside. As you say is OUR land, not all and sundries. Riders won't stick to bridleways anyway. Our local council put some in and then riders decided to ride all over the nature reserve as well. This made the council ban all horses from the bridleway and downgraded it to a footpath. I know damn well, if we let riders use our tracks, they'd soon start galloping up and down the field's too!

Riders can be their own worst enemies at times.
 
I'm really lucky where I live as although I hardly ever ride off my land, all of my neighbours have hundreds of acres with trails aswell, so none of us really have to venture onto even the regulated trails such as the Heritage Trail and the Trans Canada Trail, both of which run pretty much past my farm.

I do think though that it could be quite fun to follow these people home and take Patches for a little trot on their lawn though.
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I just want to say that it must have been a horrible experience for you, and hope you recover from the ordeal!

However, we have had a simular experience with a track where horses have ridden on it for well over 30 years, yet a commercial garage recently set up adjacent to the track with their driveways going over "our" track hence it often being blocked with cars etc etc. This has caused a lot of dispute, but as horses have been riding on that track >30yrs it is classified as a bridlepath REGARDLESS OF WHO OWNS THAT BIT OF LAND! So i have to say good on you for standing up for your rights, and dont listen to the insensitive comments on here. whatever you do, someone will always look for the "wrong", but no one is perfect and i find it amaing how harsh people can be on here, afterall you have just gone through a horrible experience!!
 
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I'm sure I wouldn't be charging him with common assualt either. One could argue provocation as you were well aware of his feelings towards you riding the track before you embarked on your journey.

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Provocation can only be argued in murder cases. No one got murdered did they?!
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See this is I worry about riding on other peoples land, even though up here its perfectly legal, I don't want to piss people/farmers off!
 
LOL! I'm sure they'd really like that! It's the same with walkers and their dogs. Public footpaths are NOT for the use of exercising dogs. Dogs should be on leads (as they should in all PUBLIC places, and faeces should be cleaned up after them. Dogs are not allowed to deviate from the footpaths and run all over the pastures either. I'm sure those dog walkers would have a major objection to me letting my dog poop on their lawn. Dog faeces carries diseases that causing cows to abort their foetus or increases the risk of stillbirth. It's not just a case of being "miserable farmers" (as we're often labelled). I wonder how those who dump the grass and tree/hedge clippings over our hedges would feel if I was to dump a silage box full of grass on their lawn!

People just cannot get it! Those of you without your own land (not you of course Tia) will totally understand how it feels to have people take such liberties if you are ever in the position to be lucky enough to buy your own land.
 
Don't worry, it has been like that for decades in Scotland. The farmer will make it known to you if he doesn't want you on his land and then you just don't go on there anymore. There are plenty of farmers up there who don't mind in the slightest though.
 
Fair enough, no one got murdered. However, people have a right to defend their property from trespassers and I feel you knew the point I was trying to make, be it legally inaccurate or not.
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The OP had to have known the reaction she would receive by trying to ride the land. There is a land owner near us that has been known to wave his shotgun at riders who tread all over his gateway. Yes, that's rather scary, but each and every rider I know locally respects the strength of feeling he has with regards to his land. They make damn sure they keep their horses off his land. Why risk an altercation just to prove a point?

There is bullying on both sides and I'm not sure who I would class as the real victim in the OP's situation.

Just as an addendum, mc77, we don't have lots of bridleways and we'd love more. However, I still don't choose to ride other people's land just because I want to.
 
Here's my 2 penny's worth... (for what it's worth!)

I think that all those who are voicing 'pro access' opinions, I would like you to consider what your opinion would be if the issue was over access by mountain bikers, moto-cross bikers, green-laners etc...? Would you still have the same view?

I wouldn't want any of the above on my land (unless they had a bone fide right of way of course) and I can therefore totally understand why many land owners do not want horses on theirs.

The Green England website (http://www.countryside.gov.uk/LAR/Access/permissive_access/index.asp) is worth a look, although it doesn't seem to have all that much detail on the legal issues.
 
I'm not sure if you were referring to me by the harsh comments.

I stand by what I said though. If she gets a ruling from the council classing the right of way as a bridlepath, then fine. I just don't see why anyone would purposely seek out confrontation from a land owner they know objects to their use of the land.

I also stand by my comments made with regards to our own land. Yes, I wouldn't go pulling people off their horses. But if we go out and offer the welcome mat, we'd have umpteen riders on our land before we know it, such is the horse population locally to me and the fact that we own 230 acres of prime riding land (in the eyes of riders)

Why is it horse riders seem to feel they have more rights than the actual landowners? Yes, as I say, it may well be re-classified as a bridlepath - but common courtesy would make me wait until such a judgement was made.
 
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it doesn't seem to have all that much detail on the legal issues

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Oh that's not a problem on HHO, we have a budding lawyer in tow.
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Actually, to totally clarify...we have occasionally had people ask if they can have a canter on the stubble fields after silaging. We've never said no as long as we know they are there and they sign a disclaimer in case of accidents.

Doesn't happen very often though. All too often here, people just do whatever they feel like. I know it's different in Scotland though and therefore I'm sure we'd not have a problem with it. If I bought a farm with a bridlepath on it I wouldn't fence it off to stop riders either. It's those that just assume and take the mick that naff us off. Walking through the land wouldn't be so much of a problem. It's the galloping and jumping hedges etc....leaving stock gates open we object to.

Personally I think this landowner should've sorted out his misgivings about the bridlepath before he completed the sale on the land. Would've saved alot of hassle.

As a final point...I ONLY ever ride on stubble fields. I never hack across my own land..too rutted, not safe and prime grazing anyway
 
I never ride across my fields either. I always stick to the edges of the hay meadows although I do have a "play around" field behind the house which has the jumps and sand ring in but this is specifically set aside for me and my boarders to play on.

All of my boarders are very respectful of our hay meadows and they never ride straight across them either.

Etiquette.....most are rural folks who know what is right and what is not....
 
I unfortunately don't own my own land but have begged and sweetened up farmers to let me ride on their land as I don't have a school. I only ride in these fields if they are stubble or they have grass tracks round them, but I re-ask if I can ride on these tracks as some are paid for if kept natural and they won't be paid if a horse goes on it. I also only ride if I will not damage the field so if it's wet I won't ride in them. Now I know for a fact I am the only one allowed in a local farmer's field as I luckily am I good friend of his and only just got to ride in them last year, but when I meet other riders in there and ask if they have permission they laugh and say the farmer hasn't caught us yet! Not exceptable I don't want my riding taken from me because some riders can't be bothered to ask or stay out of his fields! I am lucky that lots of the farmers around me let me ride in their fields but only because I am careful with when I ride in there, and every year re-ask premission to go in them. If these fields were taken from me because of these careless riders I wouldn't have any off road riding.

We do however have one farmer that will threaten you with a gun. He did to me in the past after he spooked my pony with his tractor and she bolted off the road into one of his fields he pointed his gun at me and shouted at me that I was trespassing. I was 12 yrs old at the time.
I know the trespassing law very well after we caught two people in my private yard and after a dog attacked my horses, therefore I would never go in a field I didn't have permission to go it.
 
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I never ride across my fields either. I always stick to the edges of the hay meadows although I do have a "play around" field behind the house which has the jumps and sand ring in but this is specifically set aside for me and my boarders to play on.

All of my boarders are very respectful of our hay meadows and they never ride straight across them either.

Etiquette.....most are rural folks who know what is right and what is not....

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Etiquette is lacking in the countryside in general these days. We lost two cows to lead poisoning last year before we found an old front door dumped in the woods! They'd licked at the lead paint on it. £1000 a head of maiden in calf heifer lost because some idiot couldn't be bothered to travel to the local tip!

I have a set aside area (two in fact) in the fields for riding in. Jumps, cones etc set up in there. I let friend come and ride in there as it's much bigger than the area in most schools. We often open the fence for a canter across the main field too. I've no objection to that with friends. It's strangers I object to.
 
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