Annagain
Well-Known Member
How long is a bit of string? Vet might find an issue in first 10 minutes or it might take 5 months to get a diagnosis. I was about to say until you start you won't know, but actually it's until you finish!
At a loss.. talented horse but no work ethic.
- Thread starter unknownn
- Start date
How long is a bit of string? Vet might find an issue in first 10 minutes or it might take 5 months to get a diagnosis. I was about to say until you start you won't know, but actually it's until you finish!
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
well as you said she is insured, then assuming you are with a decent insurance company you pay the excess and they take care of the rest. If the vets know your budget then they would work within those limits.
Wagtail
Horse servant
You are probably looking at around £300 - £500 including nerve blocks. Then if you have x-rays they are normally around £20 a plate plus a set up cost. Ultrasound of the ligaments is usually around £150. Most equine vets can do all of that for you but anything sacroilliac or a bone scan would need referral to a hospital and the cost is £2 k plus.
ihatework
Well-Known Member
Precisely. If you are lucky (or unlucky as the case may be) £500 - but it can spiral quickly into the thousands if things are inconclusive or you are dealing with multiple lameness.
It cost 3.5K recently to get to the bottom of one of my horses behaviour changes
chaps89
Well-Known Member
The thing is the insurance isn't likely to cover this. Equine insurance provides cover for 12 months from when the clinical signs of the illness or injury first began. By all accounts this horse has been troublesome in all the time (years) that the OP has owned her. Therefore very unlikely the insurance would cover investigations. Another consideration is that unless something physical is found, it's unusual for them to pay out on investigations based on behavioural issues, so you kind of have to hope something is found. As to work up costs, could be anything from a few hundred pounds for exam and a few nerve blocks/x-ray to thousands for bone scans and mri's unfortunately. However I agree a vet should be the next step, not more physios etc.
It also sounds like some of the basics have perhaps been missed in her education and I would be inclined to almost re-back her, teaching her about contact and leg aid from groundwork upwards. However I'd want a very specific type of instructor to help me through this process as it is more remedial/rehab than general schooling.
It also sounds like some of the basics have perhaps been missed in her education and I would be inclined to almost re-back her, teaching her about contact and leg aid from groundwork upwards. However I'd want a very specific type of instructor to help me through this process as it is more remedial/rehab than general schooling.
nikkimariet
Well-Known Member
Have had horses with no work ethic previously. Sold them to a purpose better suited.
IE the jumping pony that didn't want to jump was sold to a riding school. The purpose bred dressage horse that had no confidence for anything above medium was sold to an all rounder home.
Happy horse. Happy previous owner. Happy new owner.
Sometimes, things just aren't meant to be.
IE the jumping pony that didn't want to jump was sold to a riding school. The purpose bred dressage horse that had no confidence for anything above medium was sold to an all rounder home.
Happy horse. Happy previous owner. Happy new owner.
Sometimes, things just aren't meant to be.
LizzieRC1313
Well-Known Member
I agree with this. Some horses just have physical limitations for the job we ask them to do - doesn't mean they need to be written off, just found a different job. Does she/would she jump/hunt/team chase?
I also agree with previous posters, I don't believe a horse would fight being asked to go in an outline for four years if it was comfortable. Could easily be any number of issues - things like PSD can seriously limit a horses dressage potentially even if they're not obviously lame due to struggling to collect and take weight behind.
Annagain
Well-Known Member
Getting your diagnosis can often be the difficult part, treatment can often be easy once you know what you're dealing with.
It took 5 months, several setbacks (including a very rare, life-threatening reaction to nerve blocks) and finally an 8 day stay in hospital with a bone scan to get to the bottom of my horse's lameness issues (and that was with it being clear which leg it was!). It's a very long story" Although he didn't have a full body bone scan, just as far as his withers as it was obviously the front end, even 8 days in hospital, a bone scan, x-rays of his neck, shoulder and elbow and nerve blocks (with a special anaesthetic due to the reactions he'd previously had to nerve blocks) to his elbow and treatment for the elbow arthritis that was found came to £2k, which I thought was a bargain! This was on top of about £400 of other work (not including treatment for the reaction) before we got to that stage. 7 days later he started to come back into work and he's not had one day's lameness in the 6 months since.
SEL
Well-Known Member
My initial lameness work-up including x-rays for hocks on both back legs was around £800. That included a course of cartophen and a least one box of danilon.
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
Some horses with back pain do respond well to Bute for pain relief .
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
Some horses with back pain do respond well to Bute for pain relief .
On work ups start simple and see where you get to .
I would start with an all over look by the vet followed by some flexions trotting in straight lines and lunging on the hard and soft and the vet seeing the horse ridden l
Lulup
Well-Known Member
Sorry OP but posts like this are just so saddening. 4 years of that poor horse struggling to do what you're asking and not an x-ray or vet callout in sight?
As others have said - horses do not just choose to 'fight'. They fail to do what you ask because they do not understand or are physically unable. The fact that she hacks is testament to her good nature - she probably has a great work ethic because she hasn't tried to kill you despite you not noticing that she cannot do what you are asking in the school. Just because she manages it once or twice does not mean she easily can and is choosing not to, it means that sometimes it's easier to do it despite the pain/discomfort because she is under so much pressure from the rider. Having horses is a learning curve and if you find that she has a physical issue and has been uncomfortable all this time I hope you take the following from it:
If your horse is telling you there's an issue - listen.
If your horse is telling you it can't do something - take their word for it.
If an instructor says your horse is stubborn/likes to fight - change instructor.
Body workers/physios are brilliant and they can pick up on many issues but you need vets with diagnostic equipment to completely rule out problems.
I would bet everything I own that this horse has a problem!!
As others have said - horses do not just choose to 'fight'. They fail to do what you ask because they do not understand or are physically unable. The fact that she hacks is testament to her good nature - she probably has a great work ethic because she hasn't tried to kill you despite you not noticing that she cannot do what you are asking in the school. Just because she manages it once or twice does not mean she easily can and is choosing not to, it means that sometimes it's easier to do it despite the pain/discomfort because she is under so much pressure from the rider. Having horses is a learning curve and if you find that she has a physical issue and has been uncomfortable all this time I hope you take the following from it:
If your horse is telling you there's an issue - listen.
If your horse is telling you it can't do something - take their word for it.
If an instructor says your horse is stubborn/likes to fight - change instructor.
Body workers/physios are brilliant and they can pick up on many issues but you need vets with diagnostic equipment to completely rule out problems.
I would bet everything I own that this horse has a problem!!
paddy555
Well-Known Member
I'm afraid you are describing my sec D. He could do stuff, could have done almost anything, some days he did, some he just couldn't be arsed. He had no work ethic and there was a great difference between what he could do (when he wanted) and what he would do when he didn't feel like it. The only way I could describe it was totally infuriating. You never knew what mood he would be in. I apologise in advance to all sec D fans but would never have another of that breed.
I currently have a PSSM horse. Looking back and knowing all the symptoms and problems of PSSM and also how to deal with it successfully I really don't think my sec D was PSSM. I think his problems were totally mental and his agenda was simply not mine.
SpringArising
Well-Known Member
I actually have the opposite opinion of Sec Ds. I find them to be very willing to please and work, but also hotheaded, sensitive and oftentimes anxious and prone to panicking!
I loved mine (he's the one in my pic), he could turn his hoof to anything, when he decided to keep all four on the ground!
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
Mine started out like this, but we have found the way through it - tbh she was spoiled in her previous home and turned away and that was when the rot set in! She's now an ultra willing horse who has great capacity for work and appears to enjoy learning... there are section Ds and section Ds
and I'd have another with her kind of brain in a heartbeat. Incidentally she had a terrible canter in the beginning but only in the usual unbalanced green horse sense, it's now her best pace.Agree with Goldenstar though, not all workups lead to bone scans and MRIs :eek3:
scats
Well-Known Member
Full performance work up if I were you OP. It sounds like there may well be a physical barrier to your horse performing how you want, particularly after so many years.
I know a horse who has screamed at his owners for years that he is in physical pain in a variety of ways- consistently throwing in the towel when jumping, occasional lameness, very poor and doesn't hold weight and an array of other 'bad behaviour'. I would bet my life that it has navicular, it's got the absolutely classic pottery walk and foot conformation to match. Owners answer is to continue to force it to jump, and get whip happy when it doesn't. And, even more scarily, they have an instructor who advocates this.
I know a horse who has screamed at his owners for years that he is in physical pain in a variety of ways- consistently throwing in the towel when jumping, occasional lameness, very poor and doesn't hold weight and an array of other 'bad behaviour'. I would bet my life that it has navicular, it's got the absolutely classic pottery walk and foot conformation to match. Owners answer is to continue to force it to jump, and get whip happy when it doesn't. And, even more scarily, they have an instructor who advocates this.
paddy555
Well-Known Member
I appreciate there are different opinions. When I told a sec D breeder of my problems they simply pointed to the breeding and then to the breeding of their own horses (which performed well) and were not surprised.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
I meant to type kissing spine! Doh!
SpringArising
Well-Known Member
I agree there. I hadn't realised that they were a realm of their own until I got my first one. I had never had anything quite like him before and probably (cough, hopefully) won't again. As fun as he was my God he was a lively sod!
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
I think often these things come down to the type of person you are, as to what kind of horse you enjoy riding. Rather than x type of horses are all bad and y type of horses are all good. It's probably more about personal preference. Bit the same as some people hate mares ( I love them!)
ester
Not slacking multitasking
Also paddy you say some days yours did unless I have missed it that doesn't seem to be the case here?
I am also a bit sad on realising this has been 4 years, I'm not sure why people insure horses if they aren't going to use it when a problem is suspected. I guess if you are surrounded by enough people who say it is an attitude problem you believe it. Or a breed that can't canter, when the OP said that I assumed it was a carriage horse or a traditional definitely not a welsh, yes they need a little work but are designed to canter quite well compared to others and I certainly don't know any that have struggled unduly particular when any tension has been improved.
My welsh would be best described as generous to a point, he has various pre requisites for it.
I am also a bit sad on realising this has been 4 years, I'm not sure why people insure horses if they aren't going to use it when a problem is suspected. I guess if you are surrounded by enough people who say it is an attitude problem you believe it. Or a breed that can't canter, when the OP said that I assumed it was a carriage horse or a traditional definitely not a welsh, yes they need a little work but are designed to canter quite well compared to others and I certainly don't know any that have struggled unduly particular when any tension has been improved.
My welsh would be best described as generous to a point, he has various pre requisites for it
.unknownn
Member
Sorry but I find this rather unfair. We bought her as a green horse with little schooling - she didn't mature mentally for about 3 years (typical of the breed) We didn't rush her at first and she went back to the basics for a couple of years - working overall to make her a bit more consistent.
It is very typical of welsh cobs to struggle with contact and canter - they tend to be very downhill and canter is a weakness in most (note; most)
I don't ask grand prix moves of her and she is a lovely natured horse - there is no pressure from me unless she starts a fight sometimes - once she does it, we move onto something else. She has a very easy life here really.
I feel it unfair that you are saying I have ignored this horse - we have put this down to a schooling issue until recently because we've had to take everything so slowly with her. We are now noticing the fact she isn't improving like she should and although a happy little thing to be ridden she does put up a fight sometimes and we want to find the cause of this.
"the fact she hacks is a testament to her good nature" - how exactly? She likes hacking, as do many others?!
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SpringArising
Well-Known Member
You are right in that a lot of Welsh Cobs can get heavy on the forehand and struggle to establish a balanced canter early on but it shouldn't be a prominent issue. Like Ester I thought you were going to say you have a Trotter or a Hackney or something like that.
When you say she starts a fight what do you mean?
unknownn
Member
Becomes tense and locks the head, mouth and neck then depending on the situation will have some sort of way to say "no"
It's hard to say what she does - she never does the same thing - sometimes it's just nodding of the head violently and smacking the lips and then sometimes it's leaping sideways. She has many ways of doing things - never the same.
Wagtail
Horse servant
All of these things are common signs of pain. At least now that you are considering it could be pain, so there shouldn't be any opportunity for a 'fight'. I am presuming that you will be stopping her schooling for now and just hacking or doing straight lines until you get to the bottom of it.
paddy555
Well-Known Member
I think often these things come down to the type of person you are, as to what kind of horse you enjoy riding. Rather than x type of horses are all bad and y type of horses are all good. It's probably more about personal preference. Bit the same as some people hate mares ( I love them!)
not at all. I was very keen to get on with my sec D as was my OH. We simply couldn't get anywhere with him. I don't think all sec d's are bad and some other breeds are good. I do think there is a division in the sec D's where some are more difficult/awkward than others. I didn't realise that when I bought him. He had got away with murder with his previous owner and although he was quite young he had no wish to do much in the way of work. Is yours the one in your pics? I think they are beautiful horses to look at. I did find mine a job he was excellent at and that he totally enjoyed. Retirement!!
ester
Not slacking multitasking
Ah someone mentioned lip smacking the other day, it wasn't a pain sign I was previously aware of it but it came up in that context, I think the rearer thread?
Paddy some are definitely a bit that way inclined and they certainly have a lot of 'breed traits' but I think sometimes people are too quick to put things down to that. I can usually spot a welshie description a mile off but it wouldn't have twigged from this thread. Frank and milliepop's girl do seem to have certain similarities with regards to making things harder/new tricks. It goes can't, can't, actually physically can't, get silly, tense, huff a lot.... oh that! oh I can do that... oh look at my new trick, aren't I clever, can I show you my new trick again? no? now? sure? please!?
Paddy some are definitely a bit that way inclined and they certainly have a lot of 'breed traits' but I think sometimes people are too quick to put things down to that. I can usually spot a welshie description a mile off but it wouldn't have twigged from this thread. Frank and milliepop's girl do seem to have certain similarities with regards to making things harder/new tricks. It goes can't, can't, actually physically can't, get silly, tense, huff a lot.... oh that! oh I can do that... oh look at my new trick, aren't I clever, can I show you my new trick again? no? now? sure? please!?
teddypops
Well-Known Member
Me too! Mine is so obliging and does everything she can to do what is asked of her!
FfionWinnie
Well-Known Member
I have had lots of welshes nearly all of them bought cheap as someone else's problem, and while I would be the first to say they are not for everyone, I still think there is something wrong with this horse physically.
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
What breeding does this section D have? Some lines are known to produce nutty horses. This horse sounds to be in some discomfort, though.
My own section D was a saint and allround good egg, he competed to medium BD and his canter ended up to be awesome.
My own section D was a saint and allround good egg, he competed to medium BD and his canter ended up to be awesome.