At a loss.. talented horse but no work ethic.

paddy555 said:
not at all. I was very keen to get on with my sec D as was my OH. We simply couldn't get anywhere with him. I don't think all sec d's are bad and some other breeds are good. I do think there is a division in the sec D's where some are more difficult/awkward than others. I didn't realise that when I bought him. He had got away with murder with his previous owner and although he was quite young he had no wish to do much in the way of work. Is yours the one in your pics? I think they are beautiful horses to look at. I did find mine a job he was excellent at and that he totally enjoyed. Retirement!!
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Lol yep mine is the little chestnut. (The bay is part irish) She had been turned away for 3 years having frightened her previous owner when I got her. Enjoying her early retirement ;) she was absolutely horrid to bring back into work but I just love riding her now and she's just made her debut at advanced medium, wouldn't have believed it while we were stuck napping round the school 3 years ago!

ester said:
Frank and milliepop's girl do seem to have certain similarities with regards to making things harder/new tricks. It goes can't, can't, actually physically can't, get silly, tense, huff a lot.... oh that! oh I can do that... oh look at my new trick, aren't I clever, can I show you my new trick again? no? now? sure? please!?
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^^ hahaha this is Kira learning changes :lol:

It's a consistent theme. Today we had to learn full pass in order to produce a simple leg yield because she had an attack of the can't -shan't-won'ts ;) But they do make you think a bit laterally and I know I'm a better rider for training her :D
 
FfionWinnie said:
I have had lots of welshes nearly all of them bought cheap as someone else's problem, and while I would be the first to say they are not for everyone, I still think there is something wrong with this horse physically.
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I'm not sure anyone can really say that. Yes, there may be a problem. But equally it may be a rider issue, nothing more.
 
The horse may simply be extremely difficult to train .
There's a reason stallions get graded for trainability some horses are easier to train than others .
 
If it were would you not expect at least someone over the last 4 years to have been more successful getting a tune out of it as OP says several have ridden it including her trainer?
 
ester said:
If it were would you not expect at least someone over the last 4 years to have been more successful getting a tune out of it as OP says several have ridden it including her trainer?
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If the horse is not learning it won't matter who rides it until it begins to understand its work.
However I do think a proper problems with performance type workup is called for .
 
unknownn said:
Yes to insured, same with instructor who rides and trains to grand prix dressage. Have had a number of people on her - although they ride better so can get more out of her as such she still works in the same manner.

I have thought about hock issues with the fact she doesn't want to push off from behind. Again, all will need to be seen by a vet and if it turns out she does have for example arthritis say, and she won't jump again or something - I will have spent thousands I don't have sitting around to have a horse that won't be suitable for the job - that's my worry.
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Whilst your horse has spent all this time telling you that she is unhappy/uncomfortable/ in pain in the only way she can and you haven't even had a vet to check her properly.
I suggest that you retire her/pts and buy a bike or a rocking horse, which will do exactly what you wantvit to do.
Why on earth would you expect a horse to have a work ethic? Horses do what they enjoy, your horse obviously doesn't enjoy being ridden.
 
Some horses are just like this. Mine is not the easiest to ride because he knows exactly how to unbalance his rider even if they are a professional and its easy for him to do because he has so much power. You have to constantly work on your position to stay in the correct place on him and keep him thinking enough so that he isn't distracted by anything else happening around him. The only thing that makes him pay attention is jumping, but without the flatwork he'll never be consistent in that and I can't jump him, not to the heights he can do, I fall off at small jumps because of how far he manages to bounce you out of the saddle.

He's not nasty, he no longer throws his tantrums of rearing to get out of work and the spooking is getting better as long as you keep him focused. He is just really hard work and I have had no previous experience of any horse like him. He's half Oldenburg, grandsire is Rubinstein so understandable where he gets the power from.

I'm not sure if he or horses like him ever get better. Maybe they just get more manageable? He is getting more manageable and he's now 8 but I'm not expecting a miracle any time soon. Its gonna take a lot of work and patience with him. I know how you feel with this it sucks.
 
unknownn said:
Yes to insured, same with instructor who rides and trains to grand prix dressage. Have had a number of people on her - although they ride better so can get more out of her as such she still works in the same manner.

I have thought about hock issues with the fact she doesn't want to push off from behind. Again, all will need to be seen by a vet and if it turns out she does have for example arthritis say, and she won't jump again or something - I will have spent thousands I don't have sitting around to have a horse that won't be suitable for the job - that's my worry.
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How does 'yes to insured' fit with 'I will have spent thousands I don't have' ?

And what a horrible attitude you seem to have to a living breathing creature which is your horse. The diagnosis does not make her un-'suitable for the job' , the illness does!

Frankly, I'm hoping you're a troll.
 
Ycbm is right there's no point in trying to hide from the fact the horse may be difficult because it's physically not right .
The longer you go on the more time and money you waste .
 
If you do go with the work-up and it's hock issues then there are options - plenty of threads on here re: steroids and fusion. Ditto other limb issues & even kissing spine. Depending on what is already on the vet records treatment should be an insurance claim. My vets are pretty pragmatic about what goes on the claim forms to.ensure max chance of pay out - it's in their interests.

If pain is ruled out then it might be a case of the horse not being right for the job you want it for. I had a friend years ago who used Sec Ds in her trekking centre. She had a number who were considered difficult but who settled down when worked 2-3 hours a day. If they still played up then they worked more. Not saying that's the answer for yours - but there's a job out there for most horses.
 
As others have said, the horse may be just difficult. I haven't read every post but it sounds like she's a professionals horse. You say she's very talented but how high can she jump. Because if she's not suitable as an amateur horse then she needs to be professional level talented to be any good to someone skilled enough to ride her.

You see ridability is absolutely crucial, unless she's a prospective 1.50m jumper, in which case a professional will be skilled enough to get a tune out of her. If she's not then you're just stuck with a difficult mare. I say that in as a nice a way as possible, because if she's a difficult ride and a professional has to put a year's training into her then they will want a return on that investment, naturally. And if she doesn't have the talent then she's stuck in limbo - no good to either an amateur or professional. Sorry to be so blunt but as an agent I sell horses for a living and that's my opinion for what it's worth.
 
I don't mean to be unkind to the op but as a section d that hasn't learnt to canter well yet, it sounds like 1.50m showjumping is somewhat out of reach at this point. I don't think the OP has given much detail about where the mares talent lies? You're quite right irish gal though i think we'd need more details about ops horse :)
 
Irish Gal, as an agent/dealer you can't put every difficult horse through a performance workup. But surely as a private owner with insurance, the horse should be given the benefit of the doubt and a full veterinary exploration before anyone decides she's 'just a pro's horse'?
 
Listen Ybcm, if she's insured then do all battery and manner of vet tests. But I will lay money now that there is nothing physically wrong with that mare - she's just difficult.

There's such a thing as a tricky horse and that's what she sounds like to me. We've all read and heard about tricky professional horses but there's plenty of tricky ordinary ones too. They fall between stools unfortunately- not talented enough for the main arena but beyond the scope of the average amateur.

I avoid them like the plague in a professional sense because there's no market for them. I wouldn't dream of giving a horse like that to an amateur because they need a straightforward ride.

I'm basing what I'm saying on the OPs own comments in her opening post. The mare rears when she feels like it, can be good when it suits her etc - she's a difficult mare by the sounds of things. People on this forum are quick to jump to vet type conclusions when there's such a thing as temperament, which is definitely the most important trait of all in a horse. Some horses have poor ridability and poor prospects because of that. That is the simple truth I'm afraid.
 
I used to think exactly the way you do IG. I used to buy other people's badly behaved horses cheap, sort them out and sell them again.

The older I get, the more I realise just how many horses are struggling with physical and/or mental damage.
 
You are dead right Ybcm, there are loads of messed up horses out there and it's very sad. But the people in whose care they are need to be able to deal with that and not everybody can and it's certainly not safe for everybody to attempt it.

That's great if you have the time, the expertise and the resources to do so. But in the brass tax horse industry people are working to make a living. And they have to make that call. So producers will opt to buy a straightforward type as opposed to a troubled 11 year-old that needs a year's work to straighten it out. I'm not saying this horse needs that, I don't know the horse, I'm merely talking generally here. And if the owner was equipped to straighten it out, lets face it, she would have done so by now.
 
I've had plenty of difficult horses, I enjoy turning round other people's mistakes. I would never rush to say the horse is physically compromised often it *is* the rider at fault.

However are you really suggesting the OP is such a poor rider that in 4 years they haven't got the horse to canter properly or leg yield. My 8yr old child can teach ponies to canter and leg yield. And what of the instructors that have been on it, are we to believe they are useless as well?!

Horses don't think ah today I'll do three leg yields then that will be it I'll have a paddy after that.

I feel really sorry for this horse and the others who are classed as difficult.
 
I'm with Irish gal on this. Also none of us have seen the horse, seen it be ridden by the owner or professionals or seen it move in anyway. Based on seeing nothing, how can anyone be totally convinced that they are right and its a physical issue?

Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. If I was the OP I'd be more inclined to listen to what the professionals who have seen my horse and have ridden it say about it rather than people who haven't.

Get xrays and scans done sure, to double check that nothing is wrong. But if nothing is wrong, what is the answer? Anyone got a solution then?

People on here say this about my horse all the time too, stopped posting asking for help on his training because of it. He's seen vets, physios, farriers, saddlers, there's nothing wrong with him. He is just different to normal horses and many people dont have experience of horses like this, I certainly dont. Some days he will find any excuse to get out of work, he has to have everything to his liking to have a good schooling session. If its raining or windy, I have a tough time getting his attention as he hates anything but a calm sunny day. He will have an issue if something near the arena or wherever we take him has been moved from its original place last time he went there, and he won't concentrate. He spent an hour spooking at a trailer because someone had turned it around one day, no matter how many times he went past it it was still going to eat him apparently. Next day no issue. I had a professional school him for the past week and the horse would 'have difficulty' getting a canter lead correct some days. This changed between left and right. I've never had a problem with him picking up canter on either rein, my issue is getting him to maintain it but that's my issue at not being strong enough to ride him. He was just testing the rider on these days. On a day later in the week he was cantering beautifully on both reins, no issue with transitions and the rhythm was perfect both ways. He likes to see what he can get away with because he is lazy.

Not all horses are easy to ride, to train or to handle. Some are going to test you constantly to see if you will drop it or let them do what they want. Its not nastiness or pain, they just want to see what they can get away with and push boundaries. I think of my horse as like the kid in school who sits at the back never paying attention to the teacher, looking out the window, annoying the other kids, probably has ADHD. Although I do refer to him as Sheldon cooper now because of his OCD with things having to remain in the same place or he can't handle it.
 
To be fair you have suggested yourself several times that you think there may be something physically wrong and if I recall posted pictures of muscle wastage on one side though maybe that was someone else.




rachk89 said:
I'm with Irish gal on this. Also none of us have seen the horse, seen it be ridden by the owner or professionals or seen it move in anyway. Based on seeing nothing, how can anyone be totally convinced that they are right and its a physical issue?

Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. If I was the OP I'd be more inclined to listen to what the professionals who have seen my horse and have ridden it say about it rather than people who haven't.

Get xrays and scans done sure, to double check that nothing is wrong. But if nothing is wrong, what is the answer? Anyone got a solution then?

People on here say this about my horse all the time too, stopped posting asking for help on his training because of it. He's seen vets, physios, farriers, saddlers, there's nothing wrong with him. He is just different to normal horses and many people dont have experience of horses like this, I certainly dont. Some days he will find any excuse to get out of work, he has to have everything to his liking to have a good schooling session. If its raining or windy, I have a tough time getting his attention as he hates anything but a calm sunny day. He will have an issue if something near the arena or wherever we take him has been moved from its original place last time he went there, and he won't concentrate. He spent an hour spooking at a trailer because someone had turned it around one day, no matter how many times he went past it it was still going to eat him apparently. Next day no issue. I had a professional school him for the past week and the horse would 'have difficulty' getting a canter lead correct some days. This changed between left and right. I've never had a problem with him picking up canter on either rein, my issue is getting him to maintain it but that's my issue at not being strong enough to ride him. He was just testing the rider on these days. On a day later in the week he was cantering beautifully on both reins, no issue with transitions and the rhythm was perfect both ways. He likes to see what he can get away with because he is lazy.

Not all horses are easy to ride, to train or to handle. Some are going to test you constantly to see if you will drop it or let them do what they want. Its not nastiness or pain, they just want to see what they can get away with and push boundaries. I think of my horse as like the kid in school who sits at the back never paying attention to the teacher, looking out the window, annoying the other kids, probably has ADHD. Although I do refer to him as Sheldon cooper now because of his OCD with things having to remain in the same place or he can't handle it.
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I have to say, from the op and subsequent posts I actually have no idea what the symptoms even are....
Originally read like he can't do any lateral work, which sounds physical. Then it read like he does do lateral work most of the time but occasionally throws the towel in/is difficult at the start, which could be a training/temprement/rider ability issue.
Originally it read like the canter will not improve as he has no ability to collect, which sounds like a physical issue. But then there's not much description of what has been done with the canter, and things have been taken steady with him. A canter will rarely improve on its own, so if it just hasn't been worked on then it could just be a training/strength issue, hence the suggestion of draw reins from the instructor (not that it would be the way I would go).
Horse is fine hacking but not if you interrupt his happy hacky time with schooling - nothing particularly unusual about that.
I have no idea what kind of 'talent' the horse has so far displayed.

I don't know OP, you definitely sound confused.....but money spent on the vet would be very worth while, because otherwise you are not going to be able to sort the physical issues from the training issues and decide what job he is best suited for, and what training focus you need to get the best out of him.
 
Michen said:
To be fair you have suggested yourself several times that you think there may be something physically wrong and if I recall posted pictures of muscle wastage on one side though maybe that was someone else.
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Yeah I thought there was, but he's been checked and nothing wrong with him. No back pain, from how much he extends his back legs definitely no hock or stifle pain. Its just him. I did say she can get the vet to check her horse though, but still what do you suggest if the horse was given the all clear? No bone problems, no PSSM, nothing. What's the solution then?
 
rachk89 said:
Yeah I thought there was, but he's been checked and nothing wrong with him. No back pain, from how much he extends his back legs definitely no hock or stifle pain. Its just him. I did say she can get the vet to check her horse though, but still what do you suggest if the horse was given the all clear? No bone problems, no PSSM, nothing. What's the solution then?
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How can anyone say there is no bone problem without a gamma ray scinitgraph, or no PSSM without a muscle biopsy?

If those are done and clear, along with a few other tests, the 'what then?' is to send the horse to a pro. If the pro gets it right and the owner still can't ride it, sell it. If the Pro can't get it right retire it or shoot it.
 
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ycbm said:
How can you say there is no bone problem without a gamma ray scinitgraph, or no PSSM without a muscle biopsy?
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I said if she gets that done to her horse. If she gets the xrays, the scans and the tests done and all come back with no issues, what is the solution then for the mare?
 
I hear your frustrations. I had exactly the same issue with my WB. No work ethic. Whatsoever. But so much talent. I turned him away (which I see you have done) and it seemed to do the trick. I also vary his work greatly, from hacks to working in different arena's (we have 5 on our yard) to riding bareback. I never do one day the same. And if he gets it right I leave it. I don't rinse and repeat, which means that our rides are anything from 20 mins to an hour (INCLUSIVE OF warm up and cool down) in the arena (longer on a hack of course).

We also did every vet exam imaginable from bloods to xrays and he has had 5 different saddles. There was nothing wrong.

I then out of frustration rode him for a week bareback after deciding to give up and sell him. Due to his reputation (he can be a real whatsit) no one bit the advert (despite his breeding and accolades) and I decided to start schooling him again but with no aspirations. As soon as I took the pressure off of me I had a different horse.
 
This thread really saddens me, particularly the posts suggesting that the horse is just difficult. On the contrary, it seems the horse does basic things without complaining, but when asked to engage behind, bend, generally force her body into a position that is obviously uncomfortable for her, she objects. Yet she has been persistently browbeaten for 4 years and even forced to 'ruin her mouth' by the use of draw reins. The pain must be so bad that she is choosing to cause pain to the delicate bones of her jaw and flesh of her tongue rather than force her body into a shape which must be agony for her if she is prepared to do this. Most of the responses have thankfully shown empathy for this poor horse. Those who say she's obviously just difficult, or a professional's horse, quite frankly exasperate me! It reminds me of how things were 30 years ago.
 
there's a huge difference between a vet check and a full workup with hock and back xrays. i've had a few in with issues, and all the 5 star vettings and flexion tests and osteos can't give you the same results as a proper work up with xrays. If she's struggling in canter i would get the hocks checked for arthritis and then si checked. The rearing would make me get back xrays done as well.

It does cost, but at the moment you are probably paying for trainers/back people etc, so in the long run you'd be better putting cash up front and getting definite answers
 
Wagtail said:
On the contrary, it seems the horse does basic things without complaining, but when asked to engage behind, bend, generally force her body into a position that is obviously uncomfortable for her, she objects.
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completely agree with this. i am amazed a good trainer cannot analyse and pinpoint the times when the horse starts to struggle, and that there is a pattern telling them something. I would have no time for a trainer who would use draw reins on a horse like this.
 
paddi22 said:
completely agree with this. i am amazed a good trainer cannot analyse and pinpoint the times when the horse starts to struggle, and that there is a pattern telling them something. I would have no time for a trainer who would use draw reins on a horse like this.
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I am not the biggest fan of draw reins, but if used skillfully by the right person, they can get a job done. But that job should never be to force a horse into an outline. It should be to prevent sudden evasions such as throwing the head up in a transition and should be loose at times other than this. And never, ever on a horse that could be evading due to pain.
 
paddi22 said:
there's a huge difference between a vet check and a full workup with hock and back xrays. i've had a few in with issues, and all the 5 star vettings and flexion tests and osteos can't give you the same results as a proper work up with xrays. If she's struggling in canter i would get the hocks checked for arthritis and then si checked. The rearing would make me get back xrays done as well.

It does cost, but at the moment you are probably paying for trainers/back people etc, so in the long run you'd be better putting cash up front and getting definite answers
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But if a vet has never done the first basic workup there's no way of knowing what that might flag up .
If it were me I would have had that done years ago and xrayed the back and hocks .
The horse may be difficult it may be wrong in some way it may well be a bit of both if it's been working in pain for some time there's a price to pay for that .
I am lazy there's no point IMO in banging your head against a brick wall with horses if what you are doing is not working you have to change things .
 
Has the mare been checked for ovarian pain or been scanned to check the size of the ovaries? That is a very quick and inexpensive test. A large ovary(ies) would make it very painful to bring the hind legs under and/or cross over
 
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