At a loss.. talented horse but no work ethic.

[southerncomfort]

I actually have the opposite opinion of Sec Ds. I find them to be very willing to please and work, but also hotheaded, sensitive and oftentimes anxious and prone to panicking!

I loved mine (he's the one in my pic), he could turn his hoof to anything, when he decided to keep all four on the ground!

Agree with this. And what you don't do is pick a fight with them or try and force them to do something because all you do is increase their anxiety.

OP if you don't find a physical cause I would consider finding another instructor who is experienced with the breed and understand how to work with them and not against them. They can be fantastic horses once you get them onside and the number of people on here who are out competing on them and getting good results is testament to that.

I adore my girl. She is as batty as they come but if you can learn to love the quirks, you'll find you'll never be able to look at another breed!

 

[Goldenstar]

I said if she gets that done to her horse. If she gets the xrays, the scans and the tests done and all come back with no issues, what is the solution then for the mare?

Wrong horse wrong job wrong rider or wrong trainer any or all or one of these things may be the problem .
The easiest thing to do if the horse is a good hack is to find it a home as a hack .
I will admit to being curious as what this cob does that makes it so talented

 

[bubsqueaks]

Have you considered ruling our ulcers as a lot of behavioural, contact, training issues can be caused by them as we have just found out first hand!!


Have a very talented mare who I've had for 4 years. Got her as a green 7 year old having not done much she's 11 this year. Can jump like heck and I bought her in the hopes she'd make a nice eventer knowing her flatwork would need work. Has a hot headed personality and is quirky.

Now, here's the issue.. the mare is not improving - it's not that she doesn't get worked or anything - I have finally found an instructor who gets on with her and understands her. It's the fact we take a step forward and 2 steps back every time. She has been known to rear when she's unhappy - and has caused injury to me through this a few years ago.

I know it sounds odd to say but the blasted thing has no "work ethic" she's talented but doesn't want to use this talent and work with you - She's still fighting the simplest moves like leg yield - she doesn't want to go sideways and will do everything she can to not go sideways until she gives up and does it once or twice before she starts playing up again.

Canter is another issue - very unbalanced but this comes with her breed and nothing unusual. She's quite long, likes to drag herself upon her shoulders and no matter what we try she doesn't want to sit back - fights everything if she can.

Finally getting contact in walk and trot - canter is a different story. Instructor suggested draw reins for a while to get her used to being in a contact in canter - this is working but only when she wants to - will happily ruin her mouth if it means she doesn't have to lower her head.

Saddle/Back/Teeth etc everything has been checked that might be causing her pain and there is nothing wrong with her.

Had the majority of the winter off due to lack of facilities and it was a hope she may come back willing - she was better than previous years but still fighting until she has to give up.

I'm sure i've missed out lots but just at a loss - wondering whether to cut my losses and sell (although she's not a child's horse) or carry on in the hope that one day we'll have a breakthrough![/QUOTE]

 

[milliepops]

completely agree with this. i am amazed a good trainer cannot analyse and pinpoint the times when the horse starts to struggle, and that there is a pattern telling them something. I would have no time for a trainer who would use draw reins on a horse like this.

the problem is (and we're stuck in the same boat) the trainer will only see the horse sporadically and so may not pick up a pattern. I've seen it in the past, the rider/owner gets a lot more feedback from the horse - daily, in its expressions, its reactions to the aids, how it stands in the stable, the manner it moves in the field. etc. The trainer sees a horse presented to them for an hour (say) every fortnight (say, possibly much less frequent) and their job is to fix training problems so that's the prism that they view the horse through. It's the rider's job to piece it all together from the much richer info they have IMO.

Unless it's blindingly obvious, many grumbling issues can present as training problems initially... a bilateral lameness for example, can present in the way that the OP describes their horse, which could also plausibly be a horse that is lacking some basic training and needs to get on with the job.

Likewise, we only have what the OP has written, which is sketchy in detail. So the horse could be quite broken, or it could just need some proper training. The OP starts by saying they've made no progress, then later says it has improved... who knows! It's all speculation and we also don't know the OPs level of training experience. But tbh I'm with Wagtail in feeling sad about some of the responses, particularly the reluctance to investigate physical causes because 'what then...?' What then is you know what you're dealing with and can act appropriately. JMHO.

 

[paddi22]

I just wouldn't have the patience the op has had to struggle with an issue for so long. There's a basic checklist you can go through in few focused months
• is turnout adequate?
• is feed/ feed levels affecting horse?
• is tack ok and checked?
• am i a good enough rider for this horse, are my riding weaknesses causing issues/confusion? Am i with a trainer who understands this horse?
• Is there pain anywhere/ thorough examination / xrays of areas there might be an issue
• is this horse too much for me? if i send it to a pro full time for a period do they get better results?

it is tough on the horse (and owner) to be struggling for 4 years, thats a long time not to have cracked it, op would be better changing her approach

 

[Equi]

It's a case of how much money are you prepared to throw at it.
Stop faffing with saddlers and physio'a - the number I have seen that say everything fine when there has turned out to be a veterinary issue is unbelieveable.
You either go the vet route for poor performance and accept there is the potential to get a huge bill and maybe few answers, or find out you have a dud (!!). Or you cut your losses and give up. Not all horses enjoy being ridden for a variety of reasons.

This. I could have spent 1000s on my horse to fix his slight reluctance to canter on the right lead. I went to vet first and a simple X-ray showed his issue and that it was not going to be fixed by saddlery and dentist and physio etc so now we do everything as before I just let him decide what lead to take on the right rein. He's got a fab counter canter 😂

 

[rachk89]

Likewise, we only have what the OP has written, which is sketchy in detail. So the horse could be quite broken, or it could just need some proper training. The OP starts by saying they've made no progress, then later says it has improved... who knows! It's all speculation and we also don't know the OPs level of training experience. But tbh I'm with Wagtail in feeling sad about some of the responses, particularly the reluctance to investigate physical causes because 'what then...?' What then is you know what you're dealing with and can act appropriately. JMHO.

Who has been reluctant to investigate physical causes? Haven't seen anyone say don't bother scanning the horse and testing it.

Problem is if the scans and tests come back clean. No one except Goldenstar has actually come up with a solution for that, you are all adamant its physical. It might be physical pain, just as likely it might not be.

Its also very easy to be hard on yourself with a horse like this and think you are making no progress. I think that about mine sometimes but you forget the little things that have improved, like how now with mine he will let you touch his legs and ears without freaking out, he won't bolt from a whip being moved near him (not even going to be used on him), he very rarely disunites in canter unless the rider causes it, he is now very agile and quick on turning for jumping for such a big horse, he behaves at the mounting block now, he is no longer terrified of pigs etc. Small things to most and to myself as well but they are still improvements. Its very easy to see people on here making big improvements with their horses and feel like you are going nowhere in comparison. Betting thats how OP feels.

 

[milliepops]

Who has been reluctant to investigate physical causes? Haven't seen anyone say don't bother scanning the horse and testing it.

Well the OP's first response to the suggestion was

I have thought about hock issues with the fact she doesn't want to push off from behind. Again, all will need to be seen by a vet and if it turns out she does have for example arthritis say, and she won't jump again or something - I will have spent thousands I don't have sitting around to have a horse that won't be suitable for the job - that's my worry.

which reads like she didn't want to go ahead in case she got bad news...?

Problem is if the scans and tests come back clean. No one except Goldenstar has actually come up with a solution for that, you are all adamant its physical. It might be physical pain, just as likely it might not be.

that wouldn't be a problem IMO... that would be good news! It would mean you could sell the horse in good conscience to a hacking home (as it apparently seems fine to hack) knowing there was nothing physically causing it pain.
Or you could crack on with the training without any doubt in the back of your mind.

ETA you don't have to run up a diagnostics bill of £0000s in order to get to that point... some flexion tests, a trot up and bit of lunging at a good vet clinic could point to a minor thing that is easily treated or reassure that there appears to be nothing wrong...

Its also very easy to be hard on yourself with a horse like this and think you are making no progress. I think that about mine sometimes but you forget the little things that have improved, like how now with mine he will let you touch his legs and ears without freaking out, he won't bolt from a whip being moved near him (not even going to be used on him), he very rarely disunites in canter unless the rider causes it, he is now very agile and quick on turning for jumping for such a big horse, he behaves at the mounting block now, he is no longer terrified of pigs etc. Small things to most and to myself as well but they are still improvements. Its very easy to see people on here making big improvements with their horses and feel like you are going nowhere in comparison. Betting thats how OP feels.

if you read my responses to the OP i did ask exactly that in post number 2 - has she made NO progress, or actually has the horse come on a bit. We only have the OP's replies to go on, which was that the horse was essentially no better even with more experienced riders, but was a bit muddled about whether it was making progress. So if you can't get a clear answer on something, none of us can help.. the OP has to be honest with herself and put aside the inconvenience factor of either needing to get a vet in if it really is as bad as she says, or getting better help if it's not, or giving up.

 

[rachk89]

Well the OP's first response to the suggestion was



which reads like she didn't want to go ahead in case she got bad news...?



that wouldn't be a problem IMO... that would be good news! It would mean you could sell the horse in good conscience to a hacking home (as it apparently seems fine to hack) knowing there was nothing physically causing it pain.
Or you could crack on with the training without any doubt in the back of your mind.



if you read my responses to the OP i did ask exactly that in post number 2 - has she made NO progress, or actually has the horse come on a bit. We only have the OP's replies to go on, which was that the horse was essentially no better even with more experienced riders, but was a bit muddled about whether it was making progress. So if you can't get a clear answer on something, none of us can help.. the OP has to be honest with herself and put aside the inconvenience factor of either needing to get a vet in if it really is as bad as she says, or getting better help if it's not, or giving up.

Well she does say all will need to be seen by a vet so I'm gonna guess she is going to get a vet out. She is more worried about what the results will be but anyone would be.

Yeah she can sell her although I imagine that may be difficult to do if they have a bond. Aiming for small wins is what I would do once the all clear is given, if it is.

I thought the professional riders did marginally better with the mare but still had some difficulties? Maybe they aren't getting to ride her enough, if its just a once a week thing little progress will be made. I would probably pay a professional to ride her 6 times a week for a few weeks and see if that helps.

 

[ester]

I am curious whether the OP has had the same trainer throughout.

I am also fascinated what sort of pro is going to want a welsh d

Regarding what happens if nothing is found, well at least you know nothing has been found the horse is probably ok and you send it to a hunt/hack home or do that with her yourself. Surely it is about arming yourself with information so you can make the best decision for your horse.

 

[paddi22]

if scans came back clean i'd send her off to a pro yard full-time for a few weeks, no point getting someone out the odd time, the horse needs to be put in a suitable work programme and analysed, and where a trusted pro can have complete control over feed/turnout/handling and work levels. Sometimes a new situation and a fresh set of eyes can fix a lot of problems. It does cost, but it would cost less that struggling for another 4 years and not cracking the issue.

sometimes you see pros coming to up to ride bolshy horses on yards, and at the end of the session they have them going slightly better. Then you watch the owners being dragged and pushed around by the horse on the ground, and undoing any mental/behavioural improvements the rider made. Not saying thats whats happening here but with some horses you are better off sending them away out of your control for a while, even just so you can under be 100% sure of the 'its not me causing it' option!

 

[milliepops]

I am curious whether the OP has had the same trainer throughout.

I think she OP stated at the start that there was a fairly new trainer on board who finally understood the horse, so I'd guess not.

I am also fascinated what sort of pro is going to want a welsh d

Oi! What are you trying to say ?! I have to keep my eye on that CDJ when I've parked next to her at comps, I'm sure I saw her plotting to steal Kira away at the regionals in the spring! :lol:

 

[ihatework]

No one can say definitively there is a problem (or not) physically with this horse. Impossible given that no one here other than OP has seen the horse.

At the very least my advice would be to box the horse to a decent orthopaedic vet, explain all the behaviours you are seeing and let them do the initial assessment / basic work up. I wouldn't bother personally with calling the local equine vet out - go straight to one that is seeing subtle lame horses day in day out and has developed that sixth sense. Saves money in the long run.

But welsh cobs are special! I think they are sometimes hard wired slightly differently - some people get them, some don't. It is perfectly feasible that this is just the wrong horse in the wrong environment being asked to do the wrong job. That said I'm really saddened that it has been left 4 years to address whatever issue is there, be it physical, behavioural or both.

 

[only_me]

Sorry OP I've read all posts and am very confused as to what you mean by not progressing.

Reluctance to do lateral work can be a sign of coffin joint problems.
If it's specifically struggling to do canter then there is a good chance that horse can't balance due to pain. If she can canter in a field then it's riding/pressure related pain i.e. Saddle, pathological (KS etc.) , rider.

If she cannot maintain an outline it can be due to unbalanced, incorrect training, wrong conformation, pain. Is she thick through the gullet? Could be having breathing problems when in outline which she wouldn't want to do obviously.

If generalized reluctance or refusal it's probably pain.

Apologies if I've repeated anything already said, had quick glance through.

She could very well have ovary problems, or ulcers. Try do a rein back, I find that shows up most back/ovary problems especially.

Of course the simple thing could be that she isn't progressing because you haven't tried building up work as you mention taking things very slowly and avoid certain issues so she hasn't actually built the correct muscle or learnt to balance herself. Or even be accepting aids.

Tbh, my thoughts would be coffin joint issues so would be getting X-rays and go from there.

 

[AandK]

I'm with Irish gal on this. Also none of us have seen the horse, seen it be ridden by the owner or professionals or seen it move in anyway. Based on seeing nothing, how can anyone be totally convinced that they are right and its a physical issue?

Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. If I was the OP I'd be more inclined to listen to what the professionals who have seen my horse and have ridden it say about it rather than people who haven't.

Get xrays and scans done sure, to double check that nothing is wrong. But if nothing is wrong, what is the answer? Anyone got a solution then?

People on here say this about my horse all the time too, stopped posting asking for help on his training because of it. He's seen vets, physios, farriers, saddlers, there's nothing wrong with him. He is just different to normal horses and many people dont have experience of horses like this, I certainly dont. Some days he will find any excuse to get out of work, he has to have everything to his liking to have a good schooling session. If its raining or windy, I have a tough time getting his attention as he hates anything but a calm sunny day. He will have an issue if something near the arena or wherever we take him has been moved from its original place last time he went there, and he won't concentrate. He spent an hour spooking at a trailer because someone had turned it around one day, no matter how many times he went past it it was still going to eat him apparently. Next day no issue. I had a professional school him for the past week and the horse would 'have difficulty' getting a canter lead correct some days. This changed between left and right. I've never had a problem with him picking up canter on either rein, my issue is getting him to maintain it but that's my issue at not being strong enough to ride him. He was just testing the rider on these days. On a day later in the week he was cantering beautifully on both reins, no issue with transitions and the rhythm was perfect both ways. He likes to see what he can get away with because he is lazy.

Not all horses are easy to ride, to train or to handle. Some are going to test you constantly to see if you will drop it or let them do what they want. Its not nastiness or pain, they just want to see what they can get away with and push boundaries. I think of my horse as like the kid in school who sits at the back never paying attention to the teacher, looking out the window, annoying the other kids, probably has ADHD. Although I do refer to him as Sheldon cooper now because of his OCD with things having to remain in the same place or he can't handle it.

The difference here is that you have already had vets, tests etc to rule out pain, the OP hasn't. If the tests show the horse is in pain, then OP will have an answer for the issues and can look to see if it is fixable or not. If the tests show the horse is not in pain, then the OP needs to accept the horse cannot/does not want to do the job it was bought for, and needs to then find the horse a home as a hack. Simple really.

 

[Leo Walker]

People on here say this about my horse all the time too, stopped posting asking for help on his training because of it. He's seen vets, physios, farriers, saddlers, there's nothing wrong with him. He is just different to normal horses and many people dont have experience of horses like this, I certainly dont. Some days he will find any excuse to get out of work, he has to have everything to his liking to have a good schooling session. If its raining or windy, I have a tough time getting his attention as he hates anything but a calm sunny day. He will have an issue if something near the arena or wherever we take him has been moved from its original place last time he went there, and he won't concentrate. He spent an hour spooking at a trailer because someone had turned it around one day, no matter how many times he went past it it was still going to eat him apparently. Next day no issue. I had a professional school him for the past week and the horse would 'have difficulty' getting a canter lead correct some days. This changed between left and right. I've never had a problem with him picking up canter on either rein, my issue is getting him to maintain it but that's my issue at not being strong enough to ride him. He was just testing the rider on these days. On a day later in the week he was cantering beautifully on both reins, no issue with transitions and the rhythm was perfect both ways. He likes to see what he can get away with because he is lazy.

Unless that muscle wastage has resolved then there is something wrong with him, you just havent found it yet.

 

[Michen]

Sorry but you can't rule out back pain without an x ray. I don't recall ever reading that your horse has had a formal work up from a decent vet but hey ho, I'm sure like the OP's horse he's just another badly behaved one.

Yeah I thought there was, but he's been checked and nothing wrong with him. No back pain, from how much he extends his back legs definitely no hock or stifle pain. Its just him. I did say she can get the vet to check her horse though, but still what do you suggest if the horse was given the all clear? No bone problems, no PSSM, nothing. What's the solution then?

 

[DabDab]

Sorry but you can't rule out back pain without an x ray. I don't recall ever reading that your horse has had a formal work up from a decent vet but hey ho, I'm sure like the OP's horse he's just another badly behaved one.

That seems unnecessarily catty. IIRC you currently have a horse so distressed in one particular situation that he has a breakdown to the point of harming himself, but yet you are certain that this is just him being a sod and not fear or anxiety at all.
These things are hard to work out and work through, but being snippy about what someone else is doing doesn't generally help.

 

[ester]

I think it is an important point though, rach is saying these difficult horses exist as she has one. Of course n=1 wouldn't prove much anyway but equally there have been many threads on her horse and possible physical issues and I'm not sure he ever has been fully worked up as again those around her seem to think he is just difficult too. For many horses we are only just able to have the facilities to look hard enough for the issue.

As far as we know the OPs horse hasn't seen a vet at all for this so to me it seems a huge leap for someone who has never met it to declare it is just being difficult on the basis that they believe they have a difficult horse or to question what you will do if no problem found. I think at the very least most horses that are being difficult are deserving of even the briefest of checks and the benefit of the doubt initially.

 

[DabDab]

Oh I completely agree, the OPs horse sounds like it could do with a work-up as a starting point (as I said up thread), but I just don't see the need to be mean. Most of us will have misjudged some horse behaviour at some point and got it wrong, and I just think that if that was widely accepted then people would be far more willing to reach that possibility in their own minds. Treating people like they're stupid and/or abusive is not usually helpful.

I recently misjudged a behaviour from my little mare. She used to flick her nose as you put the headcollar on, and I never really thought anything of it as she's only just 3 and quite exuberant anyway. Once she'd had her first dentistry the behaviour disappeared almost overnight. Something must've been catching I guess.....we can all get it wrong

 

[ozpoz]

Have a look at the recent survey undertaken by Sue Dyson and an assistant, and funded by WHW and the Saddle Research Trust, on recognising pain in the equine facial expressions. They also have consistently found that most! owners and professionals are not aware that their horse is in pain and instead think lazy, naughty,slow to learn...
Isn't it time for a change of view? The research and tools are out there, we just need to pick them up.

https://www.facebook.com/SaddleResearch/

 

[Wagtail]

Have a look at the recent survey undertaken by Sue Dyson and an assistant, and funded by WHW and the Saddle Research Trust, on recognising pain in the equine facial expressions. They also have consistently found that most! owners and professionals are not aware that their horse is in pain and instead think lazy, naughty,slow to learn...
Isn't it time for a change of view? The research and tools are out there, we just need to pick them up.

https://www.facebook.com/SaddleResearch/

I saw that. It's a very good link. Worth everyone taking a look.

 

[ester]

Ah that's the one I meant from the rearing thread thanks ozpoz

 

[Michen]

I don't recall ever saying I was "certain" of that whatsoever! I have voiced my thoughts on the behaviour yes, but I absolutely cannot be certain and nor have I said that. But what I have done is get a professional involved and send him there for an assessment because I recognise that this is beyond my skill set to solve/identify the root of whilst keeping him safe.

In the same sense I think many other horses in discussion would benefit from an assessment by a professional where it doesn't appear to have been had.

That seems unnecessarily catty. IIRC you currently have a horse so distressed in one particular situation that he has a breakdown to the point of harming himself, but yet you are certain that this is just him being a sod and not fear or anxiety at all.
These things are hard to work out and work through, but being snippy about what someone else is doing doesn't generally help.

 

[DabDab]

Both the horse of the poster you had a dig at and the ops horse sound absolutely like they have had professional involvement - it might not be the right type of involvement or the right assessment made, but....
It was the impression you gave, that's why I didn't put certain in quote marks. I gave the example to highlight how we all find ourselves in difficult to work out situations with horses from time to time, and I think that horse welfare and the horse world in general would be a much better place if there was more acknowledgement of that and less condescending remarks

 

[Michen]

But isn't the right type of assessment and involvement what's so crucial? A riding instructor is no replacement for a vet. A physio or saddler cannot say a horse does not have a back problem. Even a "normal" vet isn't always the right person for an assessment, plenty of us have experienced a vet telling us our horses are fine when we know they aren't and only a full work up will show otherwise.

Of course we all find ourselves in situations that are difficult to work with, certainly the one I'm in now is not easy. But my solution has been to find a professional who deals with these problems day in day out. If I had a horse like the OP described, or Rachs horse, I would be going to a professional that specialises in these sorts of problems aka a vet who does performance work ups.

My comment wasn't meant to be catty, just frustrated. But I suppose what's more frustrating is the physios and saddlers and others out there that seem to think they are qualified to diagnose a horse as "fine".

Both the horse of the poster you had a dig at and the ops horse sound absolutely like they have had professional involvement - it might not be the right type of involvement or the right assessment made, but....
It was the impression you gave, that's why I didn't put certain in quote marks. I gave the example to highlight how we all find ourselves in difficult to work out situations with horses from time to time, and I think that horse welfare and the horse world in general would be a much better place if there was more acknowledgement of that and less condescending remarks

 

[DabDab]

Oh I completely agree, but unfortunately a professional, or indeed any person only has their own frame of experience through which to see a horse's problems. I think most of the difficulty with resolving a difficult situation with a horse is in finding the right professional with the right frame of experience at the right time. The prospect of having to find the right person to help can be really overwhelming, and I think to be honest, this is what the OP is grappling with at the moment, as she has pretty much said that she thinks there is something up with the horse, and is presumably why she asked (in granted, a very vague way) on here.

 

[Irish gal]

I agree with the posters who say you should take that horse for appraisal to a really good horse person. By that I mean someone who is all their lives working commercially with horses. Someone who has had a high level of success as a producer and is well respected.

That would be my first port of call. They have such a different level of expertise - often exceeding vets - they will be able to give you a fair idea of what's at the root of her problems. But it's important not to get sucked into ongoing livery to sort the problem out. First you need to find the right horseman and talk to them, they might want her for ten days/two weeks to make a proper appraisal. I would agree that with them and a fee with a cap on it, to prevent the ongoing livery scenario.

Ask in fb groups, ask on here for that type of person in your area. That's what I would do in your situation and take it from there.

 

[Goldenstar]

I agree with the posters who say you should take that horse for appraisal to a really good horse person. By that I mean someone who is all their lives working commercially with horses. Someone who has had a high level of success as a producer and is well respected.

That would be my first port of call. They have such a different level of expertise - often exceeding vets - they will be able to give you a fair idea of what's at the root of her problems. But it's important not to get sucked into ongoing livery to sort the problem out. First you need to find the right horseman and talk to them, they might want her for ten days/two weeks to make a proper appraisal. I would agree that with them and a fee with a cap on it, to prevent the ongoing livery scenario.

Ask in fb groups, ask on here for that type of person in your area. That's what I would do in your situation and take it from there.

After four months this is what I would advise after four years I would start with the basic workup from a vet .

 

[ozpoz]

Ah that's the one I meant from the rearing thread thanks ozpoz

No bother, I think there is a link to a free bute trial for a research programme on it too.