At what point is enough enough?

xelliex123x said:
Hmm, I actually disagree with everybody else. I understand you've been through a lot as well as your horse, but if (hypothetically obviously) this was your child would you be considering that? When it seems the hardest and you feel like giving up is usually when things take a turn and start to get better. If you can get through this you can get through anything! Just another point of view, but ultimately it is your decision and neither is easy in this situation. Best of luck xx
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Sorry but this is utter nonsense! Sometimes things don't get better no matter how much you want it, how hard you try or how much money you throw at your vet and I can only assume you've never gone through the heartache of trying to right a horse that keeps breaking if you think otherwise. As responsible owners it's our duty to think about the horse's quality of life and knowing when to say enough is enough, whether they meet BEVA guidelines or not.
 
I don't think it's unreasonable to be considering this, no, especially if another hospital stay if going to be needed. Sounds like she's stuck in a vicious cycle and if there isn't a way to increase her turnout without risking laminitis / reduce laminitis risk without risking colic then that in itself would have me considering my options. There are options out there for the navicular that may assist with some of the other issues (such as barefoot and track systems) but they aren't readily accessible in all areas of the country and don't suit ever horse / owner combination anyway. At the end of the day you've got to take the wellbeing of the whole horse into account and how many things you've got stacking up on top of each other.

My current horse is managed on a bit of a knife-edge if I'm honest and causes me regular stresses. He is lami-prone but loses weight easily so needs feeding up a fair bit in winter (but with low starch feeds!), he hates being on his own and dislikes being stabled but can't be on grass full time during Spring and Summer. In an ideal world he'd spend at least half his time year-round on a surfaced track and would have totally ad-lib hay at all times year round. In the real world he comes in during the day all Spring / Summer and for much of Winter (unless a new round bale's just gone in the field). He's needed muzzling for t/o the past few Springs which isn't great for getting / keeping weight on him but is necessary to prevent laminitis. I've always said he's not a candidate for colic surgery or for repair of a broken leg or anything needing extensive boxrest / intensive treatment as he hates vets to the point of verging on dangerous at times and has a low tolerance for box-rest unless he's feeling very under the weather.
 
xelliex123x said:
Hmm, I actually disagree with everybody else. I understand you've been through a lot as well as your horse, but if (hypothetically obviously) this was your child would you be considering that? When it seems the hardest and you feel like giving up is usually when things take a turn and start to get better. If you can get through this you can get through anything! Just another point of view, but ultimately it is your decision and neither is easy in this situation. Best of luck xx
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Whilst I see what you're trying to say, I don't think this reply is helpful or appropriate to the OP. I'd go so far as to say it probably made matters worse.

There is no way anyone should liken a horse's ongoing ailments to a child's, not even hypothetically.

Massive difference.
 
I think many of us have been in your situation and I certainly wouldn't blame you if you decided to call it a day. I do think however that you need to make this decision when not in the middle of a crisis unless the vet thinks the colic is bad enough to require pts.

If you think about it clearly she's lived perfectly well until she was 15years old (presumably?) and then things started happening. This is not unusual for an older horse. Mine went very lame at 18 had an operation and is touch wood fit and healthy at 22.

Navicular can be managed, the suspensory can heal and you might need to adjust her management to sort the colic which sounds stress related (as does the laminitis) rather than something like a twisted gut. I know it's an old chestnut but has she been tested for Cushings? My friends Shetland was in deaths door with laminitis until put on Prascend - he's 32 now and a feisty old git!

You need to be sure in your own mind that you've made the right decision for you because even when you have made the right decision you'll still be plagued by guilt.
 
I will apologise to the OP if I did make matters worse, I would hope I didn't as I was just trying to offer a different point of view! The general consensus on the thread was that yes she should put her horse to sleep. Sometimes when you're on the fence about something, other peoples opinions can push you over one way. If I were her I would want to come to the decision having considered everything and EVERY point of view and decide which one I agree with.

My post was actually supposed to be positive as I've always found when I almost gave up but didn't, everything got better and I was so glad that I didn't give up. I wasn't being rude or nasty or telling her what she should do and I feel for her as it isn't an easy place to be, as I said in the first post. I have no idea what I would do in this situation if I'm honest!
 
I understand you were trying to be positive. The thing is, when you are assessing a pain situation, "hoping for the best" and "not giving up" are not really relevant or ethical. If it is you, yourself, physically experiencing pain, then yes, battle on if you can.
If you are responsible for relieving pain and suffering, it has to be a very different way of looking at the situation.
 
I understand you weren't trying to be nasty, and my reply was harsh. In context, I might have to make a very difficult decision myself tomorrow, and comparison with choosing to kill a child blew my brain. Thanks for your explanation.
 
Hi,

Thank you for all your considered responses, they have definitely given me perspective. Apologies for my slightly jumbled OP, I was pretty stressed out when I wrote it.

To clarify, the horse is currently not on boxrest - she had a 4 month stint last summer during which she did stress-colic, but has been back out during the day since last September, watched like a hawk for any signs of colic, laminitis or lameness. She was very slightly lame ever since coming back into work, around the same time as she was turned back out, and it has taken me 6 months and several vet visits to have her diagnosed as Navicular with secondary suspensory damage.

The colic yesterday was a very mild gas colic from the grass, despite being out on poor grazing for only a few hours a day I was obviously caught out by the spring grass which has just appeared in the past week.
I decided not to go through with it yesterday, as yes I was extremely stressed and I didn't want to make an irreversible decision that I end up regretting terribly. She was given Buscopan and is seeming in brighter spirits today.

She has been on 2 Danilon a day for 2 weeks due to the Navicular/ligament diagnosis, but the vet has advised me to scale this back to 0.5 a day as he feels it's affecting her gut too...a fortnight ago he told me to put wedge shoes on her (I haven't yet done this as I've recently moved to the area and struggling to find a farrier I would trust) and keep her turned out as much as possible as it will help her Navicular, but this is so difficult to balance with keeping her off the grass to avoid the colic and possible laminitis. As far as I know, there's only one yard which runs a track system around my area, which I will look into. I can also possibly ask my YO if she can be strip grazed or be put into a fatty paddock.

I'm just overwhelmed. I don't know what to do for the best if I do continue to treat her, wedge shoes or barefoot rehab, keep off the grass or turn out.

To the person who equated her with a child, she is absolutely not a child, she is a half tonne animal that I pay a lot of money for, sacrifice other things for and spend a lot of time on every month, and she was bought to do a job not to stress me out. If she was a child, then I would be heartbroken over her quality of life. I have been struggling through for almost a year now thinking that things have to get better at some point, but instead they have consistently gotten worse.

She is insured, but at this point I am not interested in holding out for LOU or her value from them. It's not enough of a money incentive to keep going through this every day.
 
atropa said:
Hi,

Thank you for all your considered responses, they have definitely given me perspective. Apologies for my slightly jumbled OP, I was pretty stressed out when I wrote it.

To clarify, the horse is currently not on boxrest - she had a 4 month stint last summer during which she did stress-colic, but has been back out during the day since last September, watched like a hawk for any signs of colic, laminitis or lameness. She was very slightly lame ever since coming back into work, around the same time as she was turned back out, and it has taken me 6 months and several vet visits to have her diagnosed as Navicular with secondary suspensory damage.

The colic yesterday was a very mild gas colic from the grass, despite being out on poor grazing for only a few hours a day I was obviously caught out by the spring grass which has just appeared in the past week.
I decided not to go through with it yesterday, as yes I was extremely stressed and I didn't want to make an irreversible decision that I end up regretting terribly. She was given Buscopan and is seeming in brighter spirits today.

She has been on 2 Danilon a day for 2 weeks due to the Navicular/ligament diagnosis, but the vet has advised me to scale this back to 0.5 a day as he feels it's affecting her gut too...a fortnight ago he told me to put wedge shoes on her (I haven't yet done this as I've recently moved to the area and struggling to find a farrier I would trust) and keep her turned out as much as possible as it will help her Navicular, but this is so difficult to balance with keeping her off the grass to avoid the colic and possible laminitis. As far as I know, there's only one yard which runs a track system around my area, which I will look into. I can also possibly ask my YO if she can be strip grazed or be put into a fatty paddock.

I'm just overwhelmed. I don't know what to do for the best if I do continue to treat her, wedge shoes or barefoot rehab, keep off the grass or turn out.

To the person who equated her with a child, she is absolutely not a child, she is a half tonne animal that I pay a lot of money for, sacrifice other things for and spend a lot of time on every month, and she was bought to do a job not to stress me out. If she was a child, then I would be heartbroken over her quality of life. I have been struggling through for almost a year now thinking that things have to get better at some point, but instead they have consistently gotten worse.

She is insured, but at this point I am not interested in holding out for LOU or her value from them. It's not enough of a money incentive to keep going through this every day.
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Atropa, I am so sorry you are going through this.

It is always a good thing I think to take a few days, let everything calm down and take stock of the situation. I understand why you were/are considering PTS, but don't make a fast decision when you are stressed and upset. Your horse for now is comfortable and happy so taking a few days to think things over isn't the end of the world.

I do know navicular has been sucessfully helped by barefoot/Rockley from the posts on here, but as you have said you have to contend with a horse that needs to go out as much as possible but can't due to the colic/laminitus risk. It is a difficult thing to juggle and you have to think if you and her could cope with this type of management and if the yard is set up for it.

I'm not going to say what I would do, it is your horse and you know her best. You also know what is best for you. I don't think there is a right or a wrong here, just two tough decisions. One, do you say enough is enough? Two do you decide to try and manage her which in itself will be a balancing act.

I wish you luck, you will make the right decision for you and your mare, of that I have no doubt.

*Huge hugs*
 
I think that now you have got through the gas colic you need to sit down and make a list even if it is a mental one of at what point in the future you will call it a day. whether it is colic needing more than one vet visit or lami or needing more danilon and then in your mind although you will obviously have all the bad feelings involved with having a horse pts you will feel easier about the decision and not so guilty about the feeling of relief from the stress that you will most likely feel afterwards. not a nice thing to do but it will be worth it for your own peace of mind and you could also discuss things with the vet now so that they know your position and do not give you a lot of lets try xyz for 6 months when you are trying to make the decision
 
atropa said:
Hi,

Thank you for all your considered responses, they have definitely given me perspective. Apologies for my slightly jumbled OP, I was pretty stressed out when I wrote it.

To clarify, the horse is currently not on boxrest - she had a 4 month stint last summer during which she did stress-colic, but has been back out during the day since last September, watched like a hawk for any signs of colic, laminitis or lameness. She was very slightly lame ever since coming back into work, around the same time as she was turned back out, and it has taken me 6 months and several vet visits to have her diagnosed as Navicular with secondary suspensory damage.

The colic yesterday was a very mild gas colic from the grass, despite being out on poor grazing for only a few hours a day I was obviously caught out by the spring grass which has just appeared in the past week.
I decided not to go through with it yesterday, as yes I was extremely stressed and I didn't want to make an irreversible decision that I end up regretting terribly. She was given Buscopan and is seeming in brighter spirits today.

She has been on 2 Danilon a day for 2 weeks due to the Navicular/ligament diagnosis, but the vet has advised me to scale this back to 0.5 a day as he feels it's affecting her gut too...a fortnight ago he told me to put wedge shoes on her (I haven't yet done this as I've recently moved to the area and struggling to find a farrier I would trust) and keep her turned out as much as possible as it will help her Navicular, but this is so difficult to balance with keeping her off the grass to avoid the colic and possible laminitis. As far as I know, there's only one yard which runs a track system around my area, which I will look into. I can also possibly ask my YO if she can be strip grazed or be put into a fatty paddock.

I'm just overwhelmed. I don't know what to do for the best if I do continue to treat her, wedge shoes or barefoot rehab, keep off the grass or turn out.

To the person who equated her with a child, she is absolutely not a child, she is a half tonne animal that I pay a lot of money for, sacrifice other things for and spend a lot of time on every month, and she was bought to do a job not to stress me out. If she was a child, then I would be heartbroken over her quality of life. I have been struggling through for almost a year now thinking that things have to get better at some point, but instead they have consistently gotten worse.

She is insured, but at this point I am not interested in holding out for LOU or her value from them. It's not enough of a money incentive to keep going through this every day.
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You sound like an absolute trooper. You're doing everything you can for that horse, she's very lucky to have somebody like you for an owner.

Whatever you decide, you'll come to that conclusion on your own but as it stands, don't make any rash decisions until you are ready and you think the time is right. We're all here for you, I can't imagine how hard this must be for you.

Big Big cuddle and sympathy.
 
Thank you all so much again for your support. I can't tell you all how comforting it is to hear that I'm not being crazy. My friends and family, while trying to be supportive, don't understand why I can't just 'sell her on' or 'give her to a rescue' and are visibly shocked when I say that PTS is even considered as an option.
 
atropa said:
Thank you all so much again for your support. I can't tell you all how comforting it is to hear that I'm not being crazy. My friends and family, while trying to be supportive, don't understand why I can't just 'sell her on' or 'give her to a rescue' and are visibly shocked when I say that PTS is even considered as an option.
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When I was struggling to make a very, very hard decision for my boy I found going somewhere quiet and talking to a sensible horsey friend who knew us both helped. Having to explain it all, his quality of life, his pain, what the options were etc, was what finally allowed me to face up to the reality of our situation I knew deep down what I had to do, I just needed to find a way to bring myself do it. In hindsight I let mine go on too long I think, but who knows! I kept him going until the first time I saw him look down and I saw the light in his eyes go out. Once that happened he was PTS the next day.
 
crabbymare said:
I think that now you have got through the gas colic you need to sit down and make a list even if it is a mental one of at what point in the future you will call it a day. whether it is colic needing more than one vet visit or lami or needing more danilon and then in your mind although you will obviously have all the bad feelings involved with having a horse pts you will feel easier about the decision and not so guilty about the feeling of relief from the stress that you will most likely feel afterwards. not a nice thing to do but it will be worth it for your own peace of mind and you could also discuss things with the vet now so that they know your position and do not give you a lot of lets try xyz for 6 months when you are trying to make the decision
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Atropa, I was in a similar position to you when I was battling with Poppy's tendon issues, so I know only to well that battle weary feeling of always being on edge, wondering when, not if the next issue will arise. It's not something I would wish on anyone, and I honestly don't think I'd realised how big an impact it was having on my wellbeing until I let her go. In hindsight I can see my stress levels were through the roof, and that gnawing anxiety that would come out of nowhere with no rhyme or reason came from living in constant fear of another call or message telling me the vet was on his way back out. I threw my all into making her better, and even in those last weeks I remained positive that we would be one of the rare good luck stories I clung to in the darker days.

But whilst I let my heart long for a day when she was totally sound, I also asked those closest to me to call it if they ever felt I'd reached a point where I was no longer doing what was best for Pops. Crabbymare's suggestion is a great one. I spoke at length with my YO, vet and OH and was clear that no matter what my focus had to be on ensuring Pops had a good quality of life, most importantly she had to at a bear minimum be able to be a horse still, the bottom line being if I couldn't keep her field sound the decision would be out of my hands as I didn't feel it was fair to box rest a 5yo indefinitely with such a guarded prognosis.

It really helped in the final days to have that cutoff point, and meant that when I had the call to say she wasn't weightbearing on her LF again it was a heartbreaking but simple case of calling our vet for meds and organising everything for the following morning.
 
I again think you are doing absolutely the right thing. You will know when it is right for you and her. It is nearly the time, but not quite yet. I also agree that you have to be sure in your own mind, so you do not have regrets later.

I lost my man last month. The decision had been hanging over me for months, but I always hoped I could fix him. I 'nearly' made the call a few times, OH certainly thought it was time. What helped me decide in the end was a visit from his physio, not for treatment, but for her to professionally assess him. The vet, much as I admire his skill and judgement, had not had as personal a contact as the physio. It was a sounding board to have the discussion with an impartial person. It helped.

Once I had made the decision the deed was done within 24 hours. Many regrets that I could not help him, but no regrets that I had had him PTS.

Owning a horse is a real privilege, but as someone once said to me, it is when you have to say goodbye that you pay the real price of the ticket. The ticket to enjoy the ride, metaphorically speaking.

I believe the BHS has a service, with a group of volunteers, who can provide an impartial sounding board. They can also help you with practicalities. It may help if your normal network is not horse aware.
 
I do feel for you. I have a sicknote TB (not come right from KS surgery 2 years ago; treated for ulcers; doesn't like to go faster than walk) who is basically stopping me from riding as I don't have enough land for more than 1 in work plus companion. We do our 10-20 min plod around my school every day for the sake of my sanity, but that's it.

He used to get regular gassy colics as well, but he doesn't get them on AloeRide. Have you considered barefoot rehab for the navicular?

Agree with making a list in cold blood when you're feeling rational so that it is clearer when the time has been reached to pull the plug.

I too have been asked why I can't give mine to a rescue. He is my responsibility, and as far as I'm concerned, the buck stops with me.

Good luck with whatever you decide!
 
You sound like the most caring owner who is doing everything possible for her horse and I totally understand how you're feeling.

A friend is in a similar (sort of) situation with her old retired horse. He has arthritis so needs to be out for that but she also really struggles to keep his weight down. He also has cushings and will not keep a muzzle on. She needs to keep him out for the arthritis but off the grass for his weight / lami risk. She decided a couple of years ago to turn him out and if that meant he had a shorter retirement, at least it would be a happy one. He's pretty overweight but so far has avoided laminitis and the movement seems to outweigh the extra weight on his joints at the moment. At the first sign of him struggling he'll go.

Could this be an option for you? In some ways, it takes the decision out of your hands. Put the wedges on (or go barefoot), turn her out and if that results in her colicking again you know she can't cope with it and you can say goodbye. That makes it sound very simple and I know it's not so sorry if I sound trite but I just wonder if a clear plan might give you some peace of mind?
 
crabbymare said:
I think that now you have got through the gas colic you need to sit down and make a list even if it is a mental one of at what point in the future you will call it a day. whether it is colic needing more than one vet visit or lami or needing more danilon and then in your mind although you will obviously have all the bad feelings involved with having a horse pts you will feel easier about the decision and not so guilty about the feeling of relief from the stress that you will most likely feel afterwards. not a nice thing to do but it will be worth it for your own peace of mind and you could also discuss things with the vet now so that they know your position and do not give you a lot of lets try xyz for 6 months when you are trying to make the decision
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This is a really good idea, I wish I'd had that advice with my mare. It's so easy to keep saying 'let's try one more thing' or 'there's a slight improvement.' I think having a line would have made things clearer.
 
atropa said:
Hi,

Thank you for all your considered responses, they have definitely given me perspective. Apologies for my slightly jumbled OP, I was pretty stressed out when I wrote it.

To clarify, the horse is currently not on boxrest - she had a 4 month stint last summer during which she did stress-colic, but has been back out during the day since last September, watched like a hawk for any signs of colic, laminitis or lameness. She was very slightly lame ever since coming back into work, around the same time as she was turned back out, and it has taken me 6 months and several vet visits to have her diagnosed as Navicular with secondary suspensory damage.

The colic yesterday was a very mild gas colic from the grass, despite being out on poor grazing for only a few hours a day I was obviously caught out by the spring grass which has just appeared in the past week.
I decided not to go through with it yesterday, as yes I was extremely stressed and I didn't want to make an irreversible decision that I end up regretting terribly. She was given Buscopan and is seeming in brighter spirits today.

She has been on 2 Danilon a day for 2 weeks due to the Navicular/ligament diagnosis, but the vet has advised me to scale this back to 0.5 a day as he feels it's affecting her gut too...a fortnight ago he told me to put wedge shoes on her (I haven't yet done this as I've recently moved to the area and struggling to find a farrier I would trust) and keep her turned out as much as possible as it will help her Navicular, but this is so difficult to balance with keeping her off the grass to avoid the colic and possible laminitis. As far as I know, there's only one yard which runs a track system around my area, which I will look into. I can also possibly ask my YO if she can be strip grazed or be put into a fatty paddock.

I'm just overwhelmed. I don't know what to do for the best if I do continue to treat her, wedge shoes or barefoot rehab, keep off the grass or turn out.

To the person who equated her with a child, she is absolutely not a child, she is a half tonne animal that I pay a lot of money for, sacrifice other things for and spend a lot of time on every month, and she was bought to do a job not to stress me out. If she was a child, then I would be heartbroken over her quality of life. I have been struggling through for almost a year now thinking that things have to get better at some point, but instead they have consistently gotten worse.

She is insured, but at this point I am not interested in holding out for LOU or her value from them. It's not enough of a money incentive to keep going through this every day.
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I'm sorry, in hindsight it was insensitive to liken her to a child even hypothetically and I didn't mean to cause any further upset and stress by writing that. I was just trying to give you a sense of renewed hope/fight which has naturally been lost with everything you've both been through. As I said before neither decision is an easy one and I am not at all saying that enough ISN'T enough, I was only trying to give a different side to it so you weren't persuaded to make a quick decision after reading all the other comments. You know what is best for your and your horses health and standard of living which are BOTH important! I really do feel for you and know how hard it is. I'm sure you'll do what's right for both of you.
 
One quick question is she still on box rest? If so can you not just chuck out and just give her time.off.
My mare was pts when she came down with laminitis, no treatment was started at all because she colics on box rest.

Honestly a horse being pts is not a bad chocie, they don't think about death the way we do and at the end of the day this hobby is supposed to be enjoyed.
 
Sorry just seen your update stupid phone not letting me view the other pages.

Have a look at fennel seeds they helped my mare with gassey colic. Also I stand by my above statement.

I would try the barefoot approach. Both mine to bf and one has navicular.
 
crabbymare said:
I think that now you have got through the gas colic you need to sit down and make a list even if it is a mental one of at what point in the future you will call it a day. whether it is colic needing more than one vet visit or lami or needing more danilon and then in your mind although you will obviously have all the bad feelings involved with having a horse pts you will feel easier about the decision and not so guilty about the feeling of relief from the stress that you will most likely feel afterwards. not a nice thing to do but it will be worth it for your own peace of mind and you could also discuss things with the vet now so that they know your position and do not give you a lot of lets try xyz for 6 months when you are trying to make the decision
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Agree that this is a great idea. I had a crisis-to-crisis mare that I had put down last month. She was very stoic and coped quite happily with colic surgery, stress induced laminitis, back problems, teeth problems, flat awful feet, and lots of ridden issues. She came down with severe laminitis in late Feb that we found out was due to Cushings. I made a list of things we would try and a line that I wouldn't cross. My line was not eating food. She was always a big eater who was not fussy at all who would eat no matter what. As long as she was eating she was still reasonably happy. She was on box rest for a month, had x-rays etc. She was still lame on 4 danilon a day but the vets were reasonably optimistic. She became worse and worse and I wrestled with the decision everyday until one day I came down and she hadn't eaten her breakfast. She was put down that day and I have never regretted it. I knew that once she refused food she had given up and the decision was easy. You know your horse best and whatever you do will be in her and yours best interest. xx
 
Slightlyconfused said:
One quick question is she still on box rest? If so can you not just chuck out and just give her time.off.
My mare was pts when she came down with laminitis, no treatment was started at all because she colics on box rest.

Honestly a horse being pts is not a bad chocie, they don't think about death the way we do and at the end of the day this hobby is supposed to be enjoyed.
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I agree with this maybe take shoes off and turn her out for a bit and see if mother nature can work its magic then see how she goes then maybe consider bare foot if she can come back I to work, if she requires any further vet treatment for anything you can then think about if it's worth carrying on, but at the moment it sounds like your going through real stress with it and a break even for you both might do you both some good.
 
Pinkvboots said:
I agree with this maybe take shoes off and turn her out for a bit and see if mother nature can work its magic then see how she goes then maybe consider bare foot if she can come back I to work, if she requires any further vet treatment for anything you can then think about if it's worth carrying on, but at the moment it sounds like your going through real stress with it and a break even for you both might do you both some good.
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Take a look at post #38. OP has advised horse is not on box rest currently and cannot be out 24/7 due to risk of colic and laminitis.

OP I feel for you, it's not an easy situation to be in. Agree with the poster who has said you need to decide where you will draw the line in terms of treatment/intervention.
In my situation, I have two older horses (20 and 27), neither would be put through any surgery (e.g. colic) or long term box rest. Both live out, the 27yo is on 1 bute a day for arthritis in her knee, when she is not field sound on 2 bute a day I will need to make the call. Same for the 20yo but he is still ridden and not on any bute/medication. Fingers crossed for you.
 
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