Attempting to kick rider after a fall

[Mippy2020]

Looking for some advice....

To cut a long story short, child's pony decided after child had fallen off, to stop, reverse and kick out at said child, before taking off. Pony objected to doing something, popped in a cheeky buck and unseated the rider. Then pulled the crazy reverse move!

Pony has been a gem, owned almost 2 years, but does have funny ways, can be grumpy and needs firm handling, which my child has been great at. Can turn his bum occasionally and pull mean faces, and is reprimanded for this, but has never followed through with my child, or me. He has kicked out at strangers who have approached from behind and can try to dominate situations etc but is generally unflappable, quick to learn, and easygoing, albeit can be super lazy when the mood suits.

I've replayed what happened and have thought about it in every which way possible but cannot move past what I saw. Imo it's crossing a line that should never be crossed.

Pony hasn't been happy in his regular saddle, which was adjusted a few weeks back, so we've taken off and have been using a pad set up which we've used many times before between saddle fittings.

Horse is happy, healthy, teeth up to date, regular massages, daily carrot stretches etc.

Frankly, where I'm at right now, even if every muscle and bone were hurting, there is no excuse for what pony did.

Am I overthinking this?

 

[splashgirl45]

doesnt sound like he is a good childs pony, you should be able to trust them and he sounds very unsociable. there must be a reason that he is grumpy. have you tested for everything, cushings, ulcers, back, neck, sore feet. i know cushings can change their temperament, my sweet, friendly cushings mare got quite grumpy before i realised something was wrong and she went back to her sweet self once the meds had kicked in. ulcers can cause similar.. its worth going through everything as your daughter might not be so lucky next time

 

[bouncing_ball]

Did pony kick child and make contact? Or kick out in their direction and miss? Massive difference for me.

 

[Mippy2020]

doesnt sound like he is a good childs pony, you should be able to trust them and he sounds very unsociable. there must be a reason that he is grumpy. have you tested for everything, cushings, ulcers, back, neck, sore feet. i know cushings can change their temperament, my sweet, friendly cushings mare got quite grumpy before i realised something was wrong and she went back to her sweet self once the meds had kicked in. ulcers can cause similar.. its worth going through everything as your daughter might not be so lucky next time

He's a fabulous child's pony for the most part.

Everything checked apart from ulcers, including cushings, has xrays recently to check feet, has regular massages etc

 

[Mippy2020]

Did pony kick child and make contact? Or kick out in their direction and miss? Massive difference for me.

He didn't make contact.

After she'd fallen he stopped, almost gave the side eye to see where she was, lined himself up, reversed and kicked out.

Then trotted off around the school.

 

[bouncing_ball]

He didn't make contact.

After she'd fallen he stopped, almost gave the side eye to see where she was, lined himself up, reversed and kicked out.

Then trotted off around the school.

IMO he was swearing at her. But if he’d wanted to make contact he’d have done so. It is a clear warning he’s unhappy. But it’s not unforgivable in the way a child’s pony that reversed back and deliberately kicked child would be.

 

[Red-1]

If he had kicked as she fell, I would understand that.

I agree with you, though, that stopping, eyeing, reversing and kicking towards is a line crossed. Where I don't agree is that he shouldn't do that even if uncomfortable.

You say yourself that he has been uncomfortable in his saddle, maybe he too feels a line has been crossed, by you and your daughter? I would at least investigate and see where his discomfort is before declaring you don't ever trust him.

I also agree that if he had wanted to make contact he would. It was a serious transgression, so need proper investigation.

 

[Mippy2020]

IMO he was swearing at her. But if he’d wanted to make contact he’d have done so. It is a clear warning he’s unhappy. But it’s not unforgivable in the way a child’s pony that reversed back and deliberately kicked child would be.

He was unhappy as he'd been asked to go over trot poles and he wanted to chase another pony in the school instead. So he bucked in protest, child came off and then that happened.

 

[Mippy2020]

If he had kicked as she fell, I would understand that.

I agree with you, though, that stopping, eyeing, reversing and kicking towards is a line crossed. Where I don't agree is that he shouldn't do that even if uncomfortable.

You say yourself that he has been uncomfortable in his saddle, maybe he too feels a line has been crossed, by you and your daughter? I would at least investigate and see where his discomfort is before declaring you don't ever trust him.

I also agree that if he had wanted to make contact he would. It was a serious transgression, so need proper investigation.

He wasn't in his saddle. We've stopped using it and have reverted to a pad which we've used often between saddle fittings...

Not sore on palpitation, nothing apparent that's causing a problem, had the vet yesterday to do routine xrays to check feet because he had mild lami early this year. All good.

 

[Arzada]

I'd be looking to desensitise him to things behind him. I doubt that he knew exactly who/what it was behind him. You say he's reacted to people approaching from behind and this was another reaction to something behind him. This was both a fight and a flight move.

 

[Red-1]

He wasn't in his saddle. We've stopped using it and have reverted to a pad which we've used often between saddle fittings...

Not sore on palpitation, nothing apparent that's causing a problem, had the vet yesterday to do routine xrays to check feet because he had mild lami early this year. All good.

I was aware that you had changed him out of your saddle, because it had caused him discomfort. He may still be in discomfort.

I have long term aches and pains. The subside until I nearly forget them. Then, I do something that sets them off. There would be nothing on palpation, I walk sound, but, blimey, it cam hurt for weeks!

 

[Hepsibah]

It wasn't an accident the kick didn't make contact. In my opinion that was the pony saying "and stay off!".

 

[JackFrost]

What does your child think about it? I have seen this a couple of times, one I recall vividly, I was riding next to it and saw clearly what happened, like your situation but hooves absolutely made contact. The girl was not badly injured, but lost her nerve after, never being able to forget that an animal she had trusted had turned on her and attacked her.
I don;t think it's about whether the pony had a valid excuse -it's not a furry human, it's a horse, and tbh some of them are just nicer than others, whatever discomforts they may suffer.
So is your question, 'do I keep this pony?' ?? That might be one for your daughter to answer.

 

[wildwhippet]

Have you had his eyes checked?

i certainly think he’s trying to tell you something is wrong….

 

[Mippy2020]

What does your child think about it? I have seen this a couple of times, one I recall vividly, I was riding next to it and saw clearly what happened, like your situation but hooves absolutely made contact. The girl was not badly injured, but lost her nerve after, never being able to forget that an animal she had trusted had turned on her and attacked her.
I don;t think it's about whether the pony had a valid excuse -it's not a furry human, it's a horse, and tbh some of them are just nicer than others, whatever discomforts they may suffer.
So is your question, 'do I keep this pony?' ?? That might be one for your daughter to answer.

She is devastated that he did it. But fully intends to carry on as was.

 

[Mippy2020]

Have you had his eyes checked?

i certainly think he’s trying to tell you something is wrong….

Yes, full recent 'mot' including eyes.

 

[JackFrost]

She is devastated that he did it. But fully intends to carry on as was.

What a trooper!!

 

[twiggy2]

Thats a line crossed for me and not a child's pony.
The pony is a pony it's not swearing at her, it didn't reverse back to miss and tell her off, it reversed back to make contact and missed its target, horses hooves are not missiles that never miss their target.
A pony kicking out at something that surprises it is one thing but you have already said he kicks out at strangers that also would take him off the kids pony list to me, kids ponies must be safe he is not.

 

[SEL]

Was a horse not a pony and fractured riders leg. Rider hoped it was an accident but there were witnesses who said it was definitely intentional.

That is a line crossed for me sounds like pony is unhappy somewhere.

 

[PeterNatt]

I am afraid that whatever the reason the pony reversed and kicked out at your child you can not afford to have your child being hurt as next time it could be much worse. Your childs well being must come first.

 

[tda]

Sadly, I'd say a pony that bucks is not a child's pony, unless he had never done it before, ever, then I'd say pain related

 

[lannerch]

My friends horse did that many years ago needless to say that horse was sold shortly after .
agree to those who say it is overstepping the line.

 

[Spanny]

The reversing and kicking out at the rider would be a line crossed to me too, regardless of who of the rider is, but especially when it's a child.

Personally I'd stop all riding and get a full work up from the vet. If a (the?) problem can be found and treated I would restart after that, slowly and with caution. But if it isn't possible to identify and treat whatever is making the pony so unhappy I don't think it's safe or fair to keep riding him.

I hope you can get a good outcome for the pony and for you and your daughter.

 

[planete]

Whether the pony intended to connect or to miss he is clearly saying he is not prepared to be a child's pony without a fight which makes him totally unsuitable. He has also kicked out at people. I bought one like that by mistake once. I broke him to drive at which he was great and sold him.

 

[stangs]

even if every muscle and bone were hurting, there is no excuse for what pony did

Horses don't have a moral code saying that it's bad to harm children. If he is in pain when ridden, then he'll associate the child with that pain - hence the deliberate kick.

You've said he pulls faces, kicks out at strangers, tries to 'dominate' situations (not 100% sure what this means), and can be very lazy. All of these behaviours may be symptoms of pain, whether that's "real" pain or remembered pain.

Nonetheless sounds like, if he ever was a children's pony, he certainly isn't anymore.

 

[I'm Dun]

Thats a line crossed for me and not a child's pony.
The pony is a pony it's not swearing at her, it didn't reverse back to miss and tell her off, it reversed back to make contact and missed its target, horses hooves are not missiles that never miss their target.
A pony kicking out at something that surprises it is one thing but you have already said he kicks out at strangers that also would take him off the kids pony list to me, kids ponies must be safe he is not.

They dont misss. If they want to kick and make contact they do. Esp with a stationary target they have time to line up for. In fact I'd say the pony was quite careful to make sure he did miss.

Its a new thing, theres a reason for it, its just finding and hopefully fixing it.

 

[greenbean10]

They dont misss. If they want to kick and make contact they do. Esp with a stationary target they have time to line up for. In fact I'd say the pony was quite careful to make sure he did miss.

Its a new thing, theres a reason for it, its just finding and hopefully fixing it.

I agree if the pony had wanted to actually kick her it wouldn’t have been difficult for him

 

[Mippy2020]

Interestingly, we have just spent an hour, pony and child, doing groundwork. And within that hour, he's gone from not listening to her, to looking rather confused at her reinforcing who is the leader, to following her every cue.

We've not long moved to a new yard and daughter has got into a bad habit of running off to play with other kids and leaving me to do all handling etc, with her riding and feeding. So he's been more attached to me than her and obvs I'm bigger and he doesn't push boundaries.

We reversed roles this evening (bar riding) and he went from 'I'm not listening', to 'I'm focused on you only' within about 5 minutes.

He didn't invade her space, listened to what she was asking him, and no grumps at all.

I'll be calling the vet for a full work up, to rule everything else out, but the change in his demeanour when daughter actually took charge, makes me wonder if his attitude needs a tweak.

 

[Mippy2020]

Horses don't have a moral code saying that it's bad to harm children. If he is in pain when ridden, then he'll associate the child with that pain - hence the deliberate kick.

You've said he pulls faces, kicks out at strangers, tries to 'dominate' situations (not 100% sure what this means), and can be very lazy. All of these behaviours may be symptoms of pain, whether that's "real" pain or remembered pain.

Nonetheless sounds like, if he ever was a children's pony, he certainly isn't anymore.

His approach with strangers is definetly a fear response.

 

[Mippy2020]

What a trooper!!

She's pretty awesome!