Attempting to kick rider after a fall

[maya2008]

Interestingly, we have just spent an hour, pony and child, doing groundwork. And within that hour, he's gone from not listening to her, to looking rather confused at her reinforcing who is the leader, to following her every cue.

We've not long moved to a new yard and daughter has got into a bad habit of running off to play with other kids and leaving me to do all handling etc, with her riding and feeding. So he's been more attached to me than her and obvs I'm bigger and he doesn't push boundaries.

We reversed roles this evening (bar riding) and he went from 'I'm not listening', to 'I'm focused on you only' within about 5 minutes.

He didn't invade her space, listened to what she was asking him, and no grumps at all.

I'll be calling the vet for a full work up, to rule everything else out, but the change in his demeanour when daughter actually took charge, makes me wonder if his attitude needs a tweak.

I used to have an amazing child’s pony, who would take a beginner sharer right up to shows and on to their first owned pony of their own. One year, she had a sharer who was very wobbly and who she was working hard to look after. A few months in, sharer was doing vastly better and it so happened that pony knocked her eye and had to have the dilation drops and stay in a darkened stable for a time. Sharer stood outside her door chatting, but did not visit. Sharer then rode her friend’s pony for the next couple of days and again, did not so much as pat share pony. The first ride on the share pony after that, the pony dumped her unceremoniously on the floor and that was that. She wouldn’t let her back on either.

Not completely the first time I have seen similar - my TB bit me once because I greeted her friend first after going away on holiday; daughter’s pony beats up any other of our ponies daughter sits on (jealous much!!). Oh and my saintly NF dumped me on the floor the day after I had taken my husband’s horse to a show but not her…!

So definitely do all the checks, but if they come back negative, maybe see if more attention and care directed at her own pony will make it more tolerant of your daughter!

 

[piglet2001]

If it was mine it would be on a one way trip! Life is too short, it does not sound like a child’s pony and I would not want to pass it on. You would never forgive yourself if your daughter or indeed anyone else was badly injured or worse.

 

[Mippy2020]

I used to have an amazing child’s pony, who would take a beginner sharer right up to shows and on to their first owned pony of their own. One year, she had a sharer who was very wobbly and who she was working hard to look after. A few months in, sharer was doing vastly better and it so happened that pony knocked her eye and had to have the dilation drops and stay in a darkened stable for a time. Sharer stood outside her door chatting, but did not visit. Sharer then rode her friend’s pony for the next couple of days and again, did not so much as pat share pony. The first ride on the share pony after that, the pony dumped her unceremoniously on the floor and that was that. She wouldn’t let her back on either.

Not completely the first time I have seen similar - my TB bit me once because I greeted her friend first after going away on holiday; daughter’s pony beats up any other of our ponies daughter sits on (jealous much!!). Oh and my saintly NF dumped me on the floor the day after I had taken my husband’s horse to a show but not her…!

So definitely do all the checks, but if they come back negative, maybe see if more attention and care directed at her own pony will make it more tolerant of your daughter!

Oops! Ponies hey!

He was a totally different beast this evening. She worked hard to be kind but firm and lead him, not the other way around.

The difference in his demeanour was very noticeable!

 

[Mippy2020]

If it was mine it would be on a one way trip! Life is too short, it does not sound like a child’s pony and I would not want to pass it on. You would never forgive yourself if your daughter or indeed anyone else was badly injured or worse.

That's the thing, he's been a brilliant child's pony since the day we've had him.

He was very overweight when purchased, is now lean and fit and is the picture of health.

But today has really made me very sad.

 

[SusieT]

tbh, you know he isn't happy in his saddle, have you had a proper vet check ? Not just a massage? Reversing and kicking is unlikely to be malicious, just a horse behaviour at something that surprised him.
He doesn't sound very happy, there is probably a reason.

 

[Mippy2020]

Had the vet already, had xrays this week of feet and all okay.

Will ask the vet for a full lameness workup too.

Behaviour this evening with positive reinforcement made a huge difference in attitude.

Who knows but worth exploring everything!

 

[Jellymoon]

Horses don't have a moral code saying that it's bad to harm children. If he is in pain when ridden, then he'll associate the child with that pain - hence the deliberate kick.

You've said he pulls faces, kicks out at strangers, tries to 'dominate' situations (not 100% sure what this means), and can be very lazy. All of these behaviours may be symptoms of pain, whether that's "real" pain or remembered pain.

Nonetheless sounds like, if he ever was a children's pony, he certainly isn't anymore.

This is how I feel about it too. I very much doubt he missed his target because he didn’t want to hurt her, I just don’t think ponies have that thought process. What if he’d connected with her head?
If it were my daughter, she wouldn’t be riding him again, unless you can get to the bottom of the pain and sort it out. Even then, I think I’d be getting a tiny adult to test him out first.
So sorry for you OP, what a nightmare!
And poor little chap. And I do think horses, when they are in pain, do things like napping back to their friends, bucking, tanking off, which we perceive as ‘being naughty’. For them, they want to be in the safety of their herd when they are in discomfort.

 

[MidChristmasCrisis]

Very difficult position to be in….I’ve experienced similar. Daughter had a gelding and she loved him and forgave any naughtiness but at the first pony club rally one particular year they were having a go at in hand Trek type stuff…I left the arena for a few minutes and hell broke loose. The other mums saw gelding turn on daughter and try to kick her with forefeet then hinds and they were walking through pole corridors..nothing scary or different. Gelding was sold on to adult soon after, child safety and confidence is paramount.

 

[Bellaboo18]

'Frankly, where I'm at right now, even if every muscle and bone were hurting, there is no excuse for what pony did'.

I completely disagree with the above and really think its a sad attitude to have. He's not standing in his stable plotting how to hurt your child, he's associating something with pain. I'd try listening to him.

 

[lannerch]

My friends horse that did the same and was soon sold also passed a 5 star vetting .

( she was a horse not a pony so adults only )

 

[[153312]]

Thats a line crossed for me and not a child's pony.
The pony is a pony it's not swearing at her, it didn't reverse back to miss and tell her off, it reversed back to make contact and missed its target, horses hooves are not missiles that never miss their target.
A pony kicking out at something that surprises it is one thing but you have already said he kicks out at strangers that also would take him off the kids pony list to me, kids ponies must be safe he is not.

I disagree that it kicked to make contact and missed. They can and often do make warning kicks, if it wanted to make contact it would have done so.

Personally I think pony is either in pain or was spooked by the object on the floor (IE the child). It's worth pointing out that the pad could be causing back pain as it shields the spine less. First port of call needs to be the vet in any case - horrible situation to be in for all involved, hope you can get it sorted.

 

[Ceifer]

We had a pony on livery a few years ago that was purchased as a PC schoolmaster. It came with a suitably impressive CV but after a month things started to go wrong. Bucking the child off, the previous owners were v surprised by this and suggested lessons as they’d never had a problem. I went to watch a v well known trainer teach and saw the pony buck the child off, turn around and deliberately trample the child on the floor. The trainer (quite a large guy) waded in to get the child and he got run over too. I wouldn’t have believed it if I hadn’t witnessed it.
Full vet work up revealed some compression of cervical vertebrae. Child didn’t ride the pony again, I did the rehab work but the pony was still tricky to ride.
The owners decided to sell but I didn’t want to get involved as I didn’t think it right morally to sell that pony to a child. They sent it to a dealer in the end and ended up getting a 1/3 of what they paid.

 

[Chuffy99]

I’m very sorry OP horrid position to be in but my dismay is the reports of these ponies being passed on likely with no disclosure possibly hurting the next child

 

[SatansLittleHelper]

If he's never done this previously and you are aware of potential pain issues then I personally with give the little guy a pass, this time. You sound to me like you have a sensible attitude towards the situation and your little girl sounds like a little star. You're sorting out more vet checks and working on the ground to re-establish their relationship, I think there are fair and sensible ways forward. I hope it all has a positive outcome x

 

[Mippy2020]

'Frankly, where I'm at right now, even if every muscle and bone were hurting, there is no excuse for what pony did'.

I completely disagree with the above and really think its a sad attitude to have. He's not standing in his stable plotting how to hurt your child, he's associating something with pain. I'd try listening to him.

And we're all entitled to our own opinions and how we view a situation.

I've no problem with bucking off, napping, reacting to pain. What I do have issue with, is the intentional side eye and backing up to kick the child. Of course he's not plotting in his free time, they don't have the brain capacity to do that.

I am listening to him. Done nothing but listen to him since the day he came to live with us. Believe me when I say I've spent thousands and thousands on this pony, he wants for nothing.

 

[Mippy2020]

If he's never done this previously and you are aware of potential pain issues then I personally with give the little guy a pass, this time. You sound to me like you have a sensible attitude towards the situation and your little girl sounds like a little star. You're sorting out more vet checks and working on the ground to re-establish their relationship, I think there are fair and sensible ways forward. I hope it all has a positive outcome x

Thank you - I'm trying to be level headed about it. Yesterday was a bit of a shock to be honest and quite scary to view from the sidelines.

We've had his saddle checked and surprise surprise, it's not great at all. So bad that the fitter didn't want my daughter to ride in it and has taken it home to strip the flocking out completely and start again.

I've listened and he has a pass, he's a lovely pony in every other way and hasn't done anything to blot his copybook in 2 years of having him. So he has a pass and we'll continue with the groundwork to reestablish the bond that seems to have been lost a little in the past few months.

Marked difference with his demeanour today - daughter asked kindly for him to leave her space, he didn't question and was not his usual hungry self that will walk through fire for food!

 

[Mippy2020]

I’m very sorry OP horrid position to be in but my dismay is the reports of these ponies being passed on likely with no disclosure possibly hurting the next child

Not going to happen. He's with us for life, even when outgrown, as he has medical needs that I'd not be confident handing over to anyone else.

And he's at home with us, he's happy (for the most part) and we have no intention of selling on.

 

[Mippy2020]

We had a pony on livery a few years ago that was purchased as a PC schoolmaster. It came with a suitably impressive CV but after a month things started to go wrong. Bucking the child off, the previous owners were v surprised by this and suggested lessons as they’d never had a problem. I went to watch a v well known trainer teach and saw the pony buck the child off, turn around and deliberately trample the child on the floor. The trainer (quite a large guy) waded in to get the child and he got run over too. I wouldn’t have believed it if I hadn’t witnessed it.
Full vet work up revealed some compression of cervical vertebrae. Child didn’t ride the pony again, I did the rehab work but the pony was still tricky to ride.
The owners decided to sell but I didn’t want to get involved as I didn’t think it right morally to sell that pony to a child. They sent it to a dealer in the end and ended up getting a 1/3 of what they paid.

Gosh, what a nightmare!!

We'd never sell on, even if this had never happened, as he's our pony, we don't believe in passing on whether great or not, and he has medical needs that I'd like to manage for the rest of his years.

 

[Miss_Millie]

Thank you - I'm trying to be level headed about it. Yesterday was a bit of a shock to be honest and quite scary to view from the sidelines.

We've had his saddle checked and surprise surprise, it's not great at all. So bad that the fitter didn't want my daughter to ride in it and has taken it home to strip the flocking out completely and start again.

I've listened and he has a pass, he's a lovely pony in every other way and hasn't done anything to blot his copybook in 2 years of having him. So he has a pass and we'll continue with the groundwork to reestablish the bond that seems to have been lost a little in the past few months.

Marked difference with his demeanour today - daughter asked kindly for him to leave her space, he didn't question and was not his usual hungry self that will walk through fire for food!

If the saddle doesn't fit then no wonder, the poor pony will be in pain from being ridden. I'm glad that you got to the root of the problem, he will be much happier in a saddle that actually fits his back properly.

 

[Mippy2020]

If the saddle doesn't fit then no wonder, the poor pony will be in pain from being ridden. I'm glad that you got to the root of the problem, he will be much happier in a saddle that actually fits his back properly.

I'm so angry right now as it wasn't a cheap saddle, I pay through the nose for quarterly checks etc and use an SMS fitter who, by all accounts, has a great reputation.

When my old fitter today held the saddle in a different way, for me to have a look, I could clearly see its been restricting his shoulders, and he has big shoulders.

I feel terrible but hope we can move forward.

In the meantime, I'll be getting the vet out for a full work up, armed with what I know, and take from there.

He won't have a saddle on his back again until that's been done.

 

[Miss_Millie]

I'm so angry right now as it wasn't a cheap saddle, I pay through the nose for quarterly checks etc and use an SMS fitter who, by all accounts, has a great reputation.

When my old fitter today held the saddle in a different way, for me to have a look, I could clearly see its been restricting his shoulders, and he has big shoulders.

I feel terrible but hope we can move forward.

In the meantime, I'll be getting the vet out for a full work up, armed with what I know, and take from there.

He won't have a saddle on his back again until that's been done.

It's clear that you really care about him and want to do right by him. So many people would have ignorantly said that the horse was 'malicious', rather than looking into sources of pain. Well done, he is a lucky boy to have you

 

[Mippy2020]

It's clear that you really care about him and want to do right by him. So many people would have ignorantly said that the horse was 'malicious', rather than looking into sources of pain. Well done, he is a lucky boy to have you

Thank you, we do try our best ?

 

[paddy555]

And we're all entitled to our own opinions and how we view a situation.

I've no problem with bucking off, napping, reacting to pain. What I do have issue with, is the intentional side eye and backing up to kick the child. Of course he's not plotting in his free time, they don't have the brain capacity to do that.

I am listening to him. Done nothing but listen to him since the day he came to live with us. Believe me when I say I've spent thousands and thousands on this pony, he wants for nothing.

To me the thing to remember about ponies and horses is that we choose to have them. This pony (nor any other) has filled in a job application promising never to damage a hair on a precious child's head. They are purchased and expected to be babysitters. They are not. They are animals with minds of their own and also a lot of natural reactions of their own species which automatically come into play before their brain engages.

There seem to be 2 alternatives either the pony is and maybe has been in pain for a long time. He hasn't been listened to and is totally fed up with it all. The other alternative is that he is just fed up with having to baby sit a child.

I can feel your frustration from post 50. You are frustrated because it wasn't a cheap saddle, you pay a lot of money for checks, you've spend thousands and thousands on him. He wants for nothing. None of that is of any interest to the pony nor does it put him under any obligation to look after a child.

You say he has medical needs what are they?. A vet exam however thoroughly he is checked out does not mean he doesn't have a problem and that he is not in pain.

Perhaps a good part of the real answers lie in your post no. 28.

 

[Mippy2020]

To me the thing to remember about ponies and horses is that we choose to have them. This pony (nor any other) has filled in a job application promising never to damage a hair on a precious child's head. They are purchased and expected to be babysitters. They are not. They are animals with minds of their own and also a lot of natural reactions of their own species which automatically come into play before their brain engages.

There seem to be 2 alternatives either the pony is and maybe has been in pain for a long time. He hasn't been listened to and is totally fed up with it all. The other alternative is that he is just fed up with having to baby sit a child.

I can feel your frustration from post 50. You are frustrated because it wasn't a cheap saddle, you pay a lot of money for checks, you've spend thousands and thousands on him. He wants for nothing. None of that is of any interest to the pony nor does it put him under any obligation to look after a child.

You say he has medical needs what are they?. A vet exam however thoroughly he is checked out does not mean he doesn't have a problem and that he is not in pain.

Perhaps a good part of the real answers lie in your post no. 28.

Absolutely agree with every word you've written!

I think discomfort and daughter being less hands on has gone hand in hand to create the perfect recipe for almost disaster.

He's not been right since the most recent fitting - approx 3 weeks.

He has Ppid with lami episodes, hence having xrays as I thought maybe something was rumbling away that I'd missed. But all was fine and as should be.

 

[Shilasdair]

My friends horse that did the same and was soon sold also passed a 5 star vetting .

( she was a horse not a pony so adults only )

Did your friend disclose this behaviour to the buyer? Morally, I think she should have, child or adult buyer.

 

[lannerch]

Did your friend disclose this behaviour to the buyer? Morally, I think she should have, child or adult buyer.

Probably not but she was a very good horse in every other aspect and had never shown behaviour like that before , I don’t think the buyer was too hard done by.

 

[Shilasdair]

Probably not but she was a very good horse in every other aspect and had never shown behaviour like that before , I don’t think the buyer was too hard done by.

Unless, of course she injured the buyer.
A fellow livery was once dumped, then attacked by a new horse - and ended up in intensive care. Maybe it had form. She had it PTS.

 

[lannerch]

Unless, of course she injured the buyer.
A fellow livery was once dumped, then attacked by a new horse - and ended up in intensive care. Maybe it had form. She had it PTS.

A bit extreme and this horse did not have previous form and as discussed on this thread was most probably a one off , I didn’t sell the horse who knows what the buyer was or wasn’t told , the horse would have been for sale whether or not the incident happened, just maybe not as soon.

 

[paddy555]

Absolutely agree with every word you've written!

I think discomfort and daughter being less hands on has gone hand in hand to create the perfect recipe for almost disaster.

He's not been right since the most recent fitting - approx 3 weeks.

He has Ppid with lami episodes, hence having xrays as I thought maybe something was rumbling away that I'd missed. But all was fine and as should be.

I presume from your final para he is on prascend.

Is PPID a good part of the problem? I wondered if he had PPID from some of your earlier posts.
PPID, even under control, doesn't just affect the feet and lami. It affects the brain as well, how the horse sees life and how it reacts to things.
The dosage can be correct per the ACTH blood test but that doesn't always mean it is. By that I mean it may control the symptoms but not always the brain.

To give you an example of what I mean. My haflinger had PPID. He was medicated. Changed completely and all appeared back under control, muscle came back, foot abscesses went, lethargy went. Perfect horse again.

He was a horse you could take anywhere. The deeper the bog, the deeper and more difficult the river he got me out of when I made a mistake. Passing the local riding school rides no problem. The perfect babysitter just leapt off and left him in the middle of the road to sort himself out whilst I sorted the baby. Would go past anything. Not nappy.

Then little things changed that seemed plain odd but in hindsight I now realise they were to do with his brain and how he saw things. He wouldn't go through water, not a river but a puddle 6 inches deep. I had to get off to get through it. He could cope riding past one horse but if the riding school trek appeared he stood up and went crazy. Then finally I took him for a ride and we got to the end of the road happily and he changed. He could barely go any further. He was too scared. I had to get off and lead, then he got too scared to lead. I was just about having to drag him around a ride. How he now saw the ride we had whizzed around in the past became very different. He was too scared to go round even with another horse. He was scared, I was terrified by this stage Took me a while to work out it was not me riding but his brain had changed.
I used to crawl underneath him, sit there to clip him, changed sides by going under him, now I couldn't. He was scared and unreliable. There was no way of knowing if it was going to be safe.You mention a fear response with stranger and them going behind him.

I am wondering if some of this could be going on with your pony. I don't think he sat in his stable with his clipboard writing down all your daughter's misdemeanours and thinking next time she comes off I will get her for this.

I do wonder though if he saw her coming off differently than he may have done when he was younger (or previously) He saw it differently and reacted differently.

I teach my youngsters to have a lifesize dummy on and I then teach them what happens when it falls off at speed. Their reaction (until they learn) is often to kick out as it lands on the ground. Your pony almost seems to have done this but with a time delay trying to work it out.

Your daughter doing better with in hand work may simply be that being there and giving him constant commands he feels looked after and secure in a world that he may see as changing and can't quite grasp.

The above is simply what happened to me and my horse due to PPID which on the outside was controlled. It may give you a different way to start looking at thing and the way the pony behaves in the future.

The other question if this is right of course is will he be safe for your daughter. If he was mine I would be watching and analysing things closely.
I think somewhere you said you would keep him which is a lovely thing to do for him.

 

[Mippy2020]

I presume from your final para he is on prascend.

Is PPID a good part of the problem? I wondered if he had PPID from some of your earlier posts.
PPID, even under control, doesn't just affect the feet and lami. It affects the brain as well, how the horse sees life and how it reacts to things.
The dosage can be correct per the ACTH blood test but that doesn't always mean it is. By that I mean it may control the symptoms but not always the brain.

To give you an example of what I mean. My haflinger had PPID. He was medicated. Changed completely and all appeared back under control, muscle came back, foot abscesses went, lethargy went. Perfect horse again.

He was a horse you could take anywhere. The deeper the bog, the deeper and more difficult the river he got me out of when I made a mistake. Passing the local riding school rides no problem. The perfect babysitter just leapt off and left him in the middle of the road to sort himself out whilst I sorted the baby. Would go past anything. Not nappy.

Then little things changed that seemed plain odd but in hindsight I now realise they were to do with his brain and how he saw things. He wouldn't go through water, not a river but a puddle 6 inches deep. I had to get off to get through it. He could cope riding past one horse but if the riding school trek appeared he stood up and went crazy. Then finally I took him for a ride and we got to the end of the road happily and he changed. He could barely go any further. He was too scared. I had to get off and lead, then he got too scared to lead. I was just about having to drag him around a ride. How he now saw the ride we had whizzed around in the past became very different. He was too scared to go round even with another horse. He was scared, I was terrified by this stage Took me a while to work out it was not me riding but his brain had changed.
I used to crawl underneath him, sit there to clip him, changed sides by going under him, now I couldn't. He was scared and unreliable. There was no way of knowing if it was going to be safe.You mention a fear response with stranger and them going behind him.

I am wondering if some of this could be going on with your pony. I don't think he sat in his stable with his clipboard writing down all your daughter's misdemeanours and thinking next time she comes off I will get her for this.

I do wonder though if he saw her coming off differently than he may have done when he was younger (or previously) He saw it differently and reacted differently.

I teach my youngsters to have a lifesize dummy on and I then teach them what happens when it falls off at speed. Their reaction (until they learn) is often to kick out as it lands on the ground. Your pony almost seems to have done this but with a time delay trying to work it out.

Your daughter doing better with in hand work may simply be that being there and giving him constant commands he feels looked after and secure in a world that he may see as changing and can't quite grasp.

The above is simply what happened to me and my horse due to PPID which on the outside was controlled. It may give you a different way to start looking at thing and the way the pony behaves in the future.

The other question if this is right of course is will he be safe for your daughter. If he was mine I would be watching and analysing things closely.
I think somewhere you said you would keep him which is a lovely thing to do for him.

Yes, he is medicated.

Thanks so much for sharing this with me, I really appreciate it.

I haven't found a clipboard in his stable yet, so.... ?

He's going nowhere, no matter what happens. But I will give this side of things more thought, probably more so than I have thus far.

Thanks so much again - really helpful! ?