Awful hack on new horse

If the previous owner is able to come over it may be worth hacking out with her riding and you walking. I do understand that the first hack was awful and has put you off but my new boy was awful for quite a few hacks early on but he settled eventually - rightly or wrongly I dismounted whenever I thought there was danger - it took the pressure off me as I knew I could get off if I didn't feel safe ( am nervous so it didn't take much for me to get off) and I think just walking with him helped build a bond. I do think you need to give him more time to settle as some do freak in a new home. When I think what my boy was like 9 months ago to now - chalk and cheese. The first time he saw another horse cantering in the early days he reared and spun and jogged - now his hacking mate can canter off and he carries on plodding along on the buckle.
Regarding the Pelham another of mine was in a Kimblewick when I bought him as his owner said he could be strong at times - he is now ridden in a rope halter with no bit ( hacking, jumping and cross country)and is never strong - very forward going but stops easily.
 
amymay said:
B*ll*cks
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Exactly on the trial the horse was strong .
OP then tried it again in a Pelham and standing martingale which of course the seller just happened to have to hand when this not strong horse was strong. And then said horse had to be in front on the hack .
 
Goldenstar said:
I did not mean that unkindly have you made any progress .
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I know you didn't. :)

Rode him last night in the field and he was fine. Then took him along to the end of our road and back. He was ok although calling again. I asked him to stand several times, which he did although fairly reluctantly. Last time I asked him to stand though which was back near the stables he started prancing and although I got him to stand briefly if I'd pushed the situation and asked him to stand for any longer there would have been a reaction. He was getting wound up. Had him in his snaffle with no martingale.

Going to do this again tonight and tomorrow and stick the brave pants on and just make him stand when he doesn't want to and see what happens.

I think there is a basic issue with asking him to stand and if he really doesn't want to do it he's going to lose it. I also think there is a real issue with having a horse alongside. Fixable problems I'd imagine and possibly not too difficult if you take away the additional separation issues from my mare, but having spent a long time sorting issues with her this is not really what I wanted. Especially issues which could very easily end up injuring me! Seems like the first hack is probably more like what I can expect from him on a good day and I should have not been swayed by the second hack. Oooops.
 
Ride him in a standing martingale if you don’t want to don’t go out with out a neck strap.
That sounds like a more fixable if you have time and the inclination.
The horse along side him would be a deal breaker for me he’s sounds spoilt as if he’s never been made to accept things he finds exciting .
You need to ride him out daily and if he arrived here I would be riding him twice a day seven days a week I would get him so tired he would long to stand and be dreaming of being put in the stable for a sleep .
I would also be in the school teasing out the training and finding out what been missed in his early training because that’s where this will have started .
I usually would suggest you train him to lead from your other horse and that you do a lot of walking like this this would get him used to plodding about with another horse , but I would worry he would get more attached to the mare .
I like a project but are you this is what you really need to decide .
 
Goldenstar said:
Ride him in a standing martingale if you don’t want to don’t go out with out a neck strap.
That sounds like a more fixable if you have time and the inclination.
The horse along side him would be a deal breaker for me he’s sounds spoilt as if he’s never been made to accept things he finds exciting .
You need to ride him out daily and if he arrived here I would be riding him twice a day seven days a week I would get him so tired he would long to stand and be dreaming of being put in the stable for a sleep .
I would also be in the school teasing out the training and finding out what been missed in his early training because that’s where this will have started .
I usually would suggest you train him to lead from your other horse and that you do a lot of walking like this this would get him used to plodding about with another horse , but I would worry he would get more attached to the mare .
I like a project but are you this is what you really need to decide .
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I think I will stick a standing martingale on him but will prob stick with the snaffle. Pelham didn't exactly help me at the weekend.
When I ride him in the field (no school on site although we are in the process of making one), it takes a while before he'll properly listen to me asking to slow down, but he will and by the end I'm able to trot him round without him constantly trying to up his pace. He is over reactive to the leg so any leg makes him just shoot forward, therefore difficult to make him bend. And resistant to rein aids, prone to head tossing when he's not wanting to slow or stop.

I already have one project, not massively keen on another!! He's meant to be my break from the madness.
 
Oh goodness, he really does sound green as grass - what a shame, as it sounds like you're quite fond of him when he's not being a twit.

I have had 2 horses to re school who had zero stand command in any but the most dull situation (just rearing and leaping instead), and I think that it is possibly one of the most irritating habits a horse can pick up, so you do have my sympathies.
 
He does not sound like a break from madness .
I really would tell the seller he’s not the easy hack she sold him as and get your money or the vast majority of your money back .
 
Goldenstar said:
He does not sound like a break from madness .
I really would tell the seller he’s not the easy hack she sold him as and get your money or the vast majority of your money back .
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I agree with this. You sound like you are perfectly able to sort out his issues but as you say, that isn't what you wanted. You specifically wanted a nice easy hack and he is definitely not that.

Personally, I'd be letting the seller know now that you aren't happy and don't think he will settle with you. I really feel for you, this must be so frustrating and disheartening.
 
I think it is easy to under-estimate how much a move can unsettle some horses, especially when they have not seen or done a lot in the previous homes.

OP, I had very similar issues with my horse when I bought him six years ago. He also has the "turbo walk" reaction to stress and I had my share of fly bucks, mini rears and going down ditches. His default setting was to canter round the yard the minute anyone (including my instructor) got on him. I also found him strong and at one point tried a Pelham but that, if anything, made him worse. He also had a meltdown the first time I opened the yard's new electric gates. However, he is also fantastic with tractors, combines, motorbikes, etc (though more worried about multiple cyclists, though that has improved too) and I had the time and energy to persist with our hacking issues and he is now a different horse. I doubt he will ever be the most relaxing hack in the world as I do have to be aware of his foibles but there are times we can slop along on the buckle end now.

What helped was doing the same, shortish route a lot, stopping to chat to people we met along the way during which he had to stand, and being utterly consistent with my reactions.

BUT it has been a long road to get to where we are now. He is naturally anxious and I think moving several times in the 18 months before I bought him was too much for him to cope with. In the first week I owned him, he jumped out of his stable, complete with turnout rug, twice. He bit hard and generally wasn't nice to be around. Since I have had him, he has moved twice but has settled much more quickly now that he has consistency in his handling.

So my advice is that if you can't face a long haul, I'd send yours back. The rewards have been enormous with mine but there have been times I could have cried!
 
If you are not happy and the previous owner will take him back then this would seem to be the way to go (even if you take a loss).

However... I have personal knowledge of some horses who were lovely in an old home, but went off the scale when moved homes. Each time they were a more numb, heavy type. They were deemed suitable for a novice in a previous home, and they were indeed safely ridden by novices.

I think the problem came when the horses were used to making their own decisions as the novices did not. In short they were not used to being submissive to the rider's requests. They were quiet and doing OK because they were in their comfort zone. They were not what I would call 'well trained' - which to me means conditioned to conform to rider's quests.


In fact, one was so bad I got to know him as the new owner called me in as an 'expert witness' to see the horse and make a statement as to his mis-sale as a quite hack (with court proceedings in mind). He took the (brought in) experienced rider clean through a bush. He scraped the rider down a fence. He jigged and jogged, whinnied and had a right old carry on.

I did not take the job (no charge) as I could not hand n heart say that the horse was a mis-sale (long ago that it was under the old rules for a private sale - so only had to be what the previous owner believed and not necessarily fit for the purpose sold as is now).

The horse had some schooling and within a couple of months was the best horse. A fabulous hack. Did small comps too. She was glad she had stuck with it.

Another was a Police horse that we borrowed from an adjoining force. I had seen the horse when I had been at the yard for assessing their candidates. He was a true schoolmaster. He was a bit dull and lazy, but he did what was asked, jumped whatever small fence was infront of him. I specifically asked to borrow him as he was just what we needed for a rider who was returning from injury. Small (well, 16.1 but for us that was small as at the time our force had a 17hh min height), quiet, schooled...


He was a nightmare at first! Dragged people round the yard, was nappy to ride. The poor horse had been in the same home since a 4 yo, and he was around 17yrs then. At first I had to ride him myself, not what we wanted. He most certainly was not like that at home. Very soon though he was back to himself, super on the school and a doddle on the yard.


We returned him after a few months, he remained a doddle and a ride for a new person in the Police environment he was used to. A couple of years later he retired, now 19 years old. The new home was idyllic for a retiree. Treated like a lord and had to do nothing but a bit of light hacking in return. They returned him as totally unsuitable. This a horse who had proved himself time and time again, he just needed leadership in a new home as some of his confidence had been through the familiarity of his routine.


So, return him if you are not happy, but if you cannot don't despair. I think the less schooled, more native type are often ridden on their goodwill, and if their conditions change it can shake them more than a highly trained horse that gets its confidence from the constant complying with commands and the release from that.

Your horse indeed has a declared history of not being quite so quiet and compliant when conditions change, so the improvement is there for the taking. I would still return if you can though, as you wanted a 'made' hacker, not a project. I do think you may be surprised how quickly he could come round though if returning is not a possibility.
 
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Red-1 said:
I think the less schooled, more native type are often ridden on their goodwill, and if their conditions change it can shake them more than a highly trained horse that gets its confidence from the constant complying with commands and the release from that.
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I think this is so true especially when they have limited experience of life. My gelding was a nightmare when I got him age 10. He had been with the same owner since he was three. She just schooled him at home and hacked out. I tried him several times before buying and he was an angel. Moving blew his mind.

I also think cobs can be far more sensitive than people think. He used to "keep his cards close to his chest" and unless you are looking for it you miss the bit before they become overwhelmed.


He turned into my horse of a lifetime but it did cost a lot of time and money. Not what you wanted. I suppose it depends how much you like the horse whether the effort is worth it for you.
 
What Red-1 is describing is what I call common purpose horses they are not correctly trained they have simply worked with their rider a system that works for them it’s not based on a proper system that leaves the horse in a system where the horse can obey aids from any competent rider.
These horses lack the basic training that makes change easy for them handle .
 
I have loaned my ponies out several times, and its as much about picking the right home experience wise, and its the same when you sell.

I always think it takes two years to train a horse to a basic standard. Our quite young maxi cob at his first show at four, he just went for the outing, spent five hours trying to drag me round the showground The next time we could tie him to the lorry safely. We try and never do the same thing two days running and change the hack routes as much as possible and what we do its never in the same place twice.
Standing and waiting is part of the training, going in front and behind, and not to get upset if they are left. Equine hide and seek, a trip to the shop, asking them to over things( where it is safe to do so), even if they do not jump it. Learning when not to push a horse till it boils over but at the same time adding an extra stimulus that it has to adjust to.
Everyone is so obsessed with, on the bit, that they forget that getting the horse to accept the bit and your commands is more important.
There are so many people now that think training a horse happens only on a rectangular surface. In a way the rough ponies from Ireland I rode in my youth, who knew nothing about leg aids had a better basic training for life than a lot of the young animals I see today despite the all the knowledge people have access to now.
 
Goldenstar said:
What Red-1 is describing is what I call common purpose horses they are not correctly trained they have simply worked with their rider a system that works for them it’s not based on a proper system that leaves the horse in a system where the horse can obey aids from any competent rider.
These horses lack the basic training that makes change easy for them handle .
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This is true. I know a lady who breeds Highlands and one who breeds Haflingers and they said the same. People take advantage of their quiet nature, but don't school them correctly and then run into problems later. Having said that, it is hard work bringing on and schooling ponies, and not everyone wants to do this, or spend the time it will take.
 
honetpot said:
I can not understand why people seem to think that a horse has only one pattern of behaviour. A lot will have a trigger that will override any training and they go in to flight mode, where all they want to do is run away.

I have had two which had this trigger that I would describe as bomb proof safe rides. One was frightened to death of being beaten if he did anything wrong, he never showed this behaviour with us but my daughter who was 14 had lessons with a 'pro' rider and she tried riding him and the horse became tense and unhappy soon as she got on and then as she tried to get hold of him basically bolted with her in the school and stuck himself in the corner a shivering wreck. He reverted back to his normal placid self when my daughter next rode him.

The other is a Welsh A that we have owned most of his life, he did LR,PC, WHP and hunted with both my children and I would say he is one of the safest least reactive ponies we have ever owned. When the children grew too big I had him broken to drive, which he took to really well, but whilst out one day he became frightened of a plastic bag floating in the air about 15ft away from him and tried to bolt. I managed to stop him by running him into a gate. He is now petrified of plastic bags, not the ones held in your hands, he associates that with food, but bags that blown in the wind in his eye line.
I would try to avoid hacking or keep to a route that you know he is happy with and hack with company and try and work out what the trigger and reduce both your stress levels. It may be that he will never over come it and you may have to move him on.
As to the old owner taking him back. You can never really predict how a horse will react in a new environment, I bought a pony from a friend, I had known the pony for four years, we did PC and competitions together so he travelled with ours. After buying him I realised he had severe separation anxiety, you could not leave him tied up on his own, to the point I could not leave him to open the car boot when he was tied to the trailer. She didn't know and I didn't know this until we took him out on his own for the first time. When we moved yards to traditional stables I couldn't get him a stable without him trying to come out over the door for six months. Our previous stabling had grills or low partitions, so again this was not known behaviour. In every other way he was perfect and could be ridden by anyone.
Horses teach you that you know nothing really.
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^^^^This^^^^

My wee mare is great, I hacked her out when I tried her, rode her both at the initial viewing and the vetting, no hints of anything untoward at all. I needed a safe horse for my cowardly riding ways and she ticked the boxes.

Then I got her home, moving her *really* unsettled her, she tried to tell me that she was spooky, that she had an attitude and she generally wasn't as safe as she'd made out when I tried her. She reversed at ditches on her first hack, pranced around the arena and was more than a bit strong at times. BUT I kept in mind how she'd been when I tried her, I knew there was a lovely horse in there and persevered, and I'm so, so glad I did, she's blimin marvelous now. It took about 3 monthsish for her to fully settle and for me to get to know how to find her buttons.
 
I think that the seller has been dishonest. If a horse is advertised as laid, back bomb proof and spook proof and can be ridden by anyone then you should be able to get on in the heaviest of traffic on a loose rein and plod it about without it reacting. You have been done and the advert is a misrepresentation of what was sold. Send it back and get another one.
 
antigone said:
I think this is so true especially when they have limited experience of life. My gelding was a nightmare when I got him age 10. He had been with the same owner since he was three. She just schooled him at home and hacked out. I tried him several times before buying and he was an angel. Moving blew his mind.

I also think cobs can be far more sensitive than people think. He used to "keep his cards close to his chest" and unless you are looking for it you miss the bit before they become overwhelmed.


He turned into my horse of a lifetime but it did cost a lot of time and money. Not what you wanted. I suppose it depends how much you like the horse whether the effort is worth it for you.
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Many, many years ago (just at the end of the miners' strike) sis and I bought an Appaloosa mare together. I tried her at the RS in S.Yorks, where I was told that she was on selling livery, she was absolutely foot perfect, I saw her ridden by a staff member (afaik) and then rode her myself, with no niggles at all. She was delivered, in a trailer, to the livery where we intended to keep her and they were over an hour late (only about an hour's journey max), with no real explanation. She stayed in overnight and then walked through the village to the field where she was to graze, very quiet, no problems.

Until the next day when she was a nightmare, on the ground, ridden, you name it! It was a though a switch had been flipped!

6 weeks later we decided to move yards, we led her to the new yard, as we thought that trying to load her would just add the problems, she appeared to be claustrophobic. About a third of the way to the new yard we had got so fed up of her antics and so physically tired that we seriously thought of leaving her in a field at the side of the road and (maybe) :D coming back to collect her after we had all had a rest.

However, we persevered and after a short walk along a bridleway, through a farmyard, almost exactly halfway into the journey, it was as if the 'good' switch had been flipped back. She was never an easy horse, in many respects but she certainly was much improved on the first 6 weeks.

But I think she had been allowed to do almost exactly as she liked in her previous home, she had lived out 24/7, and she really didn't appreciate the rider having any input. She was a perfect true beginner's ride because she was so comfortable and smooth. Her 2 saving graces were that she came to call, from the word 'go' and she never lost a rider (not sure how she managed that).

We kept her for another 22 yrs and thought the world of her until she had to be pts aged 31 but she was dreadfully hard work in the beginning.
 
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