Back and hooves questions

[rachk89]

So after a recent post some people suggested that my horse has maybe been in pain and I am now questioning if he still is perhaps, but is no longer showing it as drastically as he had been. I'm worried that I maybe havent spotted signs or have been ignoring them because other people more qualified than myself said it wasnt pain so wanting to get some opinions.

Ok so quick overview: he got moved to a new yard in January, gained weight very quickly there thanks to the lovely grass and haylage. By about May time I guess, he was getting a bit boisterous to ride and started napping, spooking at lots of things, spinning and even a bit of rearing at times. He didnt do these all of the time, in fact it only ever happened in the arena near the trailers and a dark corner, hence why we all thought it was fear/evasion of work type thing. In the field, he was fine, my usual lovely horse, quiet, no issues at all. This continued until about October ish and he's now fine again. Now the trees at the bottom end of the arena have all lost their leaves so the corner is no longer dark and he only has some issues still with the trailers (but he also has random imaginary problems with jump wings outside of the arena if they have been moved).

To me, that sounds like its fear, maybe evasion of work. I mean he knew if he spun round or napped or bolted slightly, I would get off and he didnt have to work. So he would end up doing that even before we got into the arena. But never in the field, not once.

He doesnt do this anymore though. However I sat on him the other night with no saddle and you'd have to be an idiot to have not noticed the unevenness in his back, it was very obvious. I could feel it straight away and I kept feeling like I was going to fall off to the left as it felt so much lower than the right. I have some pictures of it below (forgive me for the bad lighting, I took them tonight so its not great):

Left side

Right side

Behind (sorry its really blurry, it is difficult to get non blurry photos of him as he never stops moving).

Now I know its very obvious how low the left side is thanks to shadows and that, the right side honestly isnt much better.

I have had a few recent concerns about him when riding which may be related to his back but unsure. Recently when riding or even when not riding, he is putting his head very low to the ground, sometimes sniffing for food, but is often just walking along with his head almost on the ground. He does this more after having ridden him, even though I have not really been asking much of him other than forwardness as recently he has been very lazy and I havent been doing much with him either thanks to weather and lack of time. Does this concern anyone? I feel like I'm mental half the time and so does most of the yard, but its not like him to do that.

So now my questions concerning his back are:

1. Should I stop riding him for now, get a vet out in the NY for an all round health check and proceed from there?
2. If I do 1, which is likely regardless of what people say, should I then still not ride him, and only do lunging, ground work and in hand work for a few weeks to build the muscle back up on his back?
3. If I do ride, shall I stick to just hacking and road work as much as I detest going on the road? Or if not possible for hacking as we need to go out with someone still because he is still a bit nervous but not bad, stick to a large field and do schooling in there?

Right as for his hooves, this is more just a 'what do you think' kind of thing as I've seen people post pictures of their horses hooves and now I'm worried his look bad. I am also considering trying him barefoot on the front, but then I am gonna be doing hacking and potentially cross country next year so taking shoes off now seems pointless. Any way for the photos:

Front left

Front right

Back left

Back right

Again sorry for bad quality, bad lighting etc. The back ones in particular I think look a little low at the back. Sorry for the mud on them all too, I did try to brush it off, but yeah.. didnt work. Oh yeah I know the mats are the wrong way round too, but when we change them back, they get changed the other way again. Its because its easier to sweep on that side, although I never found the normal side bad really.

Anyway, sorry for the long post and rambling. Just want my horse to be healthy and happy. He seems like both, but do wonder if he is hiding something. Thanks.

 

[stencilface]

Can't really see the fees pics, but the back certainly does look unlevel to me.

Has he had a physio or anyone to see him recently? Vet check to evaluate posdibke pain certainly worth it. I would look at getting someone out to help you with in hand and ridden work if he's otherwise ok as he's obviously not working correctly, this can be learned behaviour from previous pain. My horse does the same thing. He doesn't have such unevenness in his back, but he'll trot lame if he's allowed to.

 

[rachk89]

Can't really see the fees pics, but the back certainly does look unlevel to me.

Has he had a physio or anyone to see him recently? Vet check to evaluate posdibke pain certainly worth it. I would look at getting someone out to help you with in hand and ridden work if he's otherwise ok as he's obviously not working correctly, this can be learned behaviour from previous pain. My horse does the same thing. He doesn't have such unevenness in his back, but he'll trot lame if he's allowed to.

Sorry I will try and get better feet pics, but light was not great tonight. Yeah the back is very unlevel, agreeing there.

He had a physio see to him on the 7th November. In all honesty, he looked better then, his back has deteriorated quite quickly which also concerns me, but maybe its always that quick? It wasnt much better, but it was definitely better than that. She didnt find anything wrong with him and I do trust her, those two physios are well known in this area and are very much liked by all.

Yeah vet will be coming out anyway to do his vaccinations, so I was thinking of getting them to do a general health check at the same time, check him all over. The physio is out again on the 19th and I've made them aware of his issues already, and I think they are wanting to see him being ridden this time to see what he does under saddle too (last 2 times all I've asked them to do is a massage with him and check his back for sore points, which they havent found).

Working properly is a problem, he is lazy and will shuffle along if he can get away with it. When he actually tries though, he moves lovely and he gets compliments on how well he moves. But its the problem of getting him to do it, and I'm like most owners and am a bit soft with him and let him off with it. Need to get tougher haha.

 

[be positive]

Sometimes minor issues start to show up at this time of year because the horses are not being worked regularly, you said on another thread you don't ride so much during the week at the moment, the regular exercise keeps the muscle tone better then it starts to drop when they do less, it is probably nothing more than him not using himself evenly so a saddle check along with the physio would be a good idea, make sure you are straight as that will have an effect on how he maintains his muscle.

The feet are hard to see but the fronts look as if they are due or overdue as they appear very long/ high in the heels which is better than so often seen but still not ideal.

 

[rachk89]

Sometimes minor issues start to show up at this time of year because the horses are not being worked regularly, you said on another thread you don't ride so much during the week at the moment, the regular exercise keeps the muscle tone better then it starts to drop when they do less, it is probably nothing more than him not using himself evenly so a saddle check along with the physio would be a good idea, make sure you are straight as that will have an effect on how he maintains his muscle.

The feet are hard to see but the fronts look as if they are due or overdue as they appear very long/ high in the heels which is better than so often seen but still not ideal.

Yeah can't unfortunately ride as much during the week now. I think i am sitting straight but will get some lessons in the new year. Do you think just ignore schooling for now and just do hacking would be best? He isn't overly forward anymore seems to be lacking enthusiasm although he hates winter so that could be why. He would prefer to live on a tropical island in the Caribbean.

His feet were done recently so that sucks. Well i say recently think it was the end of November. Unfortunately changing farrier around here will be hard as they are all either fully booked or harley tries to kill them for some unknown reason. I won't put that particular farrier in danger with him either as it's not fair on her. He isn't like that with anyone else either he took a really strong disliking to her.

 

[BethH]

Mine has lacked energy on and off over the last couple of years but came very sound when I moved yards in August and remained so all the time it was dry as I was able to hack much more easily. Over the last month or so since it has been damp but mild, he has become lethargic again and lacking energy. My gut is that he has lost a lot of fitness as he can't cope with too much work, but I also suspect either his hocks or feet are playing up so he doesn't feel 100% comfortable. He was thought (inconclusively) to have possible spavins 2yrs ago and doesn't cope as well as normal when it is damp and mild. Usually September is his difficult month, but clearly Autumn is still here, he is better when it is cold and crisp!!!

I am gently hacking in walk to toughen the feet up again as he is barefoot and I noticed his soles/digital cushion behind are weak but he is also not pushing through his hocks. I think lack of energy is usually discomfort in some way shape or form - so I would be looking at Footbalance (toe first landing/underrun heels) then hocks or ulcers.

Whilst I would always say if in doubt and he is not quite right a vet is the way to go - my experience of late tells me you can call out lots of times and not get to the bottom of the true problem!! The muscle loss your photos show tell me he is not putting weight evenly through his back end when working, if you are happy with the saddle then I would be getting a slow motion video of his footfall - if you post it on it there are some great eyes that might spot something.

 

[rachk89]

Mine has lacked energy on and off over the last couple of years but came very sound when I moved yards in August and remained so all the time it was dry as I was able to hack much more easily. Over the last month or so since it has been damp but mild, he has become lethargic again and lacking energy. My gut is that he has lost a lot of fitness as he can't cope with too much work, but I also suspect either his hocks or feet are playing up so he doesn't feel 100% comfortable. He was thought (inconclusively) to have possible spavins 2yrs ago and doesn't cope as well as normal when it is damp and mild. Usually September is his difficult month, but clearly Autumn is still here, he is better when it is cold and crisp!!!

I am gently hacking in walk to toughen the feet up again as he is barefoot and I noticed his soles/digital cushion behind are weak but he is also not pushing through his hocks. I think lack of energy is usually discomfort in some way shape or form - so I would be looking at Footbalance (toe first landing/underrun heels) then hocks or ulcers.

Whilst I would always say if in doubt and he is not quite right a vet is the way to go - my experience of late tells me you can call out lots of times and not get to the bottom of the true problem!! The muscle loss your photos show tell me he is not putting weight evenly through his back end when working, if you are happy with the saddle then I would be getting a slow motion video of his footfall - if you post it on it there are some great eyes that might spot something.

That's a good idea is the video with me on him or just being led around? I could get a video of him being ridden but I would be iffy about my mum's camera abilities lol. I think his saddle is fine although it was fitted a couple of months ago and he has lost muscle now so possibly isn't right. I know when he is iffy with his back though as he will move away when I bring the saddle to him and he isn't doing that.

 

[BethH]

I would try to film him whilst lunging and then also compare to a video when ridden - would be interesting to see if it changes with a rider as that would show issue with posture of rider or weight on back as an aside. But as a priority, I would try to video his feet whilst lunging in walk, trot and canter and then really slow the video down, that will show you the angle of the foot as it hits the floor. You need to do it on both reins to try and isolate each foot, you might need to persuade someone to crouch on the floor out of the way whilst you work him, as watching the arc of the foot is also worthwhile. Most I-phones have a slow-mo setting/video on the camera that works well and you can then also email it to your vet/physio etc as they might find it useful if you notice foot dragging or toe first landing..

 

[ester]

I don't like his feet from what you can see, some daylight pics would be fab if you can.

They both look tall, and both look to be shod pretty short heel wise.
The Front right looks particularly boxy and what is going on with that toe?
Given his back issues front on and sole pics would be interesting to see if he has any compensatory deviations or not, same with hinds that look much better, possibly some slight bullnosing on the right hind.

 

[Taliesan]

His back feet look better than the fronts in terms of angle. His fronts look too short and boxy. Very hard to tell for certain from those pictures though.

It looks like he has a bit of muscle atrophy on the left. Until you know what this is caused by it may be best if you don't ride. It isn't worth the risk of potentially further aggravating the issue. I would get a vet out, as they are the only ones who can diagnose, but I would also get a soft tissue bodyworker out as well.

Muscle atrophy like that can be caused by numerous things. I've seen it caused by saddles, rugs and feet to name a few. It is well worth getting someone out to have a look at your horse and try to work out the cause.

In the photo of his back was your horse standing perfectly square on a level surface?

 

[rachk89]

I don't like his feet from what you can see, some daylight pics would be fab if you can.

They both look tall, and both look to be shod pretty short heel wise.
The Front right looks particularly boxy and what is going on with that toe?
Given his back issues front on and sole pics would be interesting to see if he has any compensatory deviations or not, same with hinds that look much better, possibly some slight bullnosing on the right hind.

Will try and get some more tonight. The fronts are pretty bad but in fairness to the farrier my horse removed one of his shoes a while ago and the hoof got destroyed before I could get the farrier out so they had to shorten the left one a lot to remove the damage parts and then compensate on the right so they were even. Think we are still recovering from that.

 

[rachk89]

His back feet look better than the fronts in terms of angle. His fronts look too short and boxy. Very hard to tell for certain from those pictures though.

It looks like he has a bit of muscle atrophy on the left. Until you know what this is caused by it may be best if you don't ride. It isn't worth the risk of potentially further aggravating the issue. I would get a vet out, as they are the only ones who can diagnose, but I would also get a soft tissue bodyworker out as well.

Muscle atrophy like that can be caused by numerous things. I've seen it caused by saddles, rugs and feet to name a few. It is well worth getting someone out to have a look at your horse and try to work out the cause.

In the photo of his back was your horse standing perfectly square on a level surface?

Yeah not going to ride until I know for sure. It's now snowing so can't anyway. The muscle loss has only happened in this last month which is when I stopped riding as much. I have taken him off the conditioning cubes he was getting too as he was getting a bit too hot but now I am thinking of putting him back on them as he is getting way less grass in the field. It's just concerning that it's on one side mainly.

I am certain the saddle fits or at least it did. With how much muscle he has lost it is likely to not fit now. Going to get the vet out hopefully in the first week of the new year for his vaccinations and a full check.

 

[Red-1]

I would not ride the horse until it was investigated, as if the horse is a different left and right as he looks, then there is something going on.

The front feet not being even is another clue, and the way one of them has changed angle would lead me to believe it is a relatively recent problem.

I am not a vet, farrier, physio or saddle fitter, but my best guess would be that the horse has some issue and is holding himself slightly differently to compensate. The issue may have initially been an ill fitting saddle (is this the horse that required the emergency Sunday saddle fitting?) or, perhaps the ill fitting saddle occurred because of the sudden change of muscle due to holding himself differently.

Either way, if the horse is not lame yet you have a window to rest and identify the problem.

BTW, I recollect this horse has also had times of being sharp. If my horse has a pain issue, he also becomes sharp at silly things. It is like he can cope with banners/noise/whatever until he is at near tolerance level dealing with pain, at which point anything can set him off. I tried to buy him a new saddle and the fitter got it wrong and until I sussed it we had some spins, leaps and naps. Once the original saddle was put back on he went back to his normal happy, reliable self. Happily for him (and me) that was just 2 days! Sadly for him, he came to me with major behavioural issues, and the first day I put it down to a flashback to previous behaviour, by the second day I realised I needed to see him for what he had been for me, not what he had been before and did some investigating.

 

[rachk89]

I would not ride the horse until it was investigated, as if the horse is a different left and right as he looks, then there is something going on.

The front feet not being even is another clue, and the way one of them has changed angle would lead me to believe it is a relatively recent problem.

I am not a vet, farrier, physio or saddle fitter, but my best guess would be that the horse has some issue and is holding himself slightly differently to compensate. The issue may have initially been an ill fitting saddle (is this the horse that required the emergency Sunday saddle fitting?) or, perhaps the ill fitting saddle occurred because of the sudden change of muscle due to holding himself differently.

Either way, if the horse is not lame yet you have a window to rest and identify the problem.

BTW, I recollect this horse has also had times of being sharp. If my horse has a pain issue, he also becomes sharp at silly things. It is like he can cope with banners/noise/whatever until he is at near tolerance level dealing with pain, at which point anything can set him off. I tried to buy him a new saddle and the fitter got it wrong and until I sussed it we had some spins, leaps and naps. Once the original saddle was put back on he went back to his normal happy, reliable self. Happily for him (and me) that was just 2 days! Sadly for him, he came to me with major behavioural issues, and the first day I put it down to a flashback to previous behaviour, by the second day I realised I needed to see him for what he had been for me, not what he had been before and did some investigating.

Not going to ride him until the vet has seen him as i said above.

I don't know why he was sharp but I don't think this caused it. He was more level on his back before and now isn't. If anything he should be misbehaving now but he isn't. He has calmed down now.

His saddle has fitted for a while now. It didn't months ago because he grew wide so quickly and that's when I got the saddler out to widen it. Not on Sunday though I texted them on Sunday.

Thanks for your advice though. Going to get a vet out to see him though as they are the professionals and they will hopefully find what's wrong with him. Just hoping it's nothing major but whatever it is hopefully we can get it fixed.

 

[rachk89]

OK so couldn't get a decent video yet as I can't work my phones camera yet but I did watch his feet and they land flat really there isn't toe first but not heel first either. As long as its not toe first its OK isn't it?

 

[rachk89]

Update on the vet front.

Vet checked him over today. He is perfectly healthy apart from being overweight. Back has no issues and hooves look healthy. He did say that the front right is slightly longer on the outside compared to the left one but it shouldnt make a difference. But I am still going to mention it to the farrier though and see if he can even it up without causing damage.

Only other thing the vet said during the trot up was that he was slightly stiff in his movement in his shoulders but that exercise will probably cure that.

So gonna get exercising him and slimming him down. He does have a rather large belly.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Personally, I would get a 2nd vet opinion. This vet has found a couple of ' minor' things and discounted them but you have described a horse which has some behaviour issues, which point to a problem of some kind. There are quite a number of posters on this forum whose horses have been 'not quite right' with minor issues, which upon further investigation have eventually been found to have quite serious causes, which might not have got so bad, if they had been dealt with sooner.

 

[Taliesan]

Feet will show what is going on in the body and vice versa.

If one foot has flaring or is growing in a different way to the others there will usually be a reason for this.

Some horses have perfect uniform feet but most will not if they are left to grow as whatever suits the horse best.

Getting your farrier to even it up to make it look right most likely is not going to fix the issue and may result in your horse compensating in other ways.

I would think about getting a second opinion and also get a bodyworker of some sort to give your horse a good going over. At the very least your horse will probably appreciate the bodywork session.

 

[rachk89]

Personally, I would get a 2nd vet opinion. This vet has found a couple of ' minor' things and discounted them but you have described a horse which has some behaviour issues, which point to a problem of some kind. There are quite a number of posters on this forum whose horses have been 'not quite right' with minor issues, which upon further investigation have eventually been found to have quite serious causes, which might not have got so bad, if they had been dealt with sooner.

In fairness the vet is the professional and has seen the horse. No one here has. Not even seen him on video. So until he gives me another reason to think he has an issue I am going to start riding him again. He is unfit now so the shoulder thing is probably that and he was on edge today because of the vet so likely that was a factor. If he starts misbehaving again then yeah will get the vet out again but until then he has a clean bill of health. I don't see any reason to stop riding him now.

 

[rachk89]

I have just looked up the vet as he was a new one I didnt recognise just in case there was any reason he might not be ok and he is pretty well educated. Seems to be a consultant surgeon at this surgery and works at Glasgow vet school too. He is also a lecturer in another equine hospital so going to trust him unless I have a reason not to.

 

[rachk89]

Feet will show what is going on in the body and vice versa.

If one foot has flaring or is growing in a different way to the others there will usually be a reason for this.

Some horses have perfect uniform feet but most will not if they are left to grow as whatever suits the horse best.

Getting your farrier to even it up to make it look right most likely is not going to fix the issue and may result in your horse compensating in other ways.

I would think about getting a second opinion and also get a bodyworker of some sort to give your horse a good going over. At the very least your horse will probably appreciate the bodywork session.

True I will see what the farriers opinion is. He might be fine with them since they are causing the horse no problems he isn't lame at all. He is getting a physio seeing to him in two weeks which he does enjoy. The vet wasn't concerned by his feet he just made a note of it. Said since the horse isn't bothered by it that its not a problem.

He checked his teeth too but I know they are fine as the horse shows clearly when they are not OK. He head shakes with even a slightly sharp point so I know when they need done.

 

[AdorableAlice]

Vets are rarely saddle fitters, and whilst the horse has been declared sound and well which is excellent news, the area behind the wither is indicating the saddle does not or did not fit him. Nappy or sharp behaviour is also an indicator of ill fitting tack.

 

[ester]

So what did he say about the possible cause of the atrophy on one side?

 

[rachk89]

Vets are rarely saddle fitters, and whilst the horse has been declared sound and well which is excellent news, the area behind the wither is indicating the saddle does not or did not fit him. Nappy or sharp behaviour is also an indicator of ill fitting tack.

He is no longer nappy or sharp. Gonna check saddle fit tomorrow before I get on.

See the nappy/sharp thing was only in one area of the arena. The trees and the trailers created a wall in the corner of the arena and he wouldn't go near it. Now you can see through the trees as the leaves have died and he is fine now. He can sometimes have a side step from the trailers but usually he is fine. If I took him to the field or indoor arena he never misbehaved not once. He spooks at stuff out on hacks still but that is very obviously spooking as he goes from walking along fine to suddenly seeing a road sign and needing to be on the other side of the road in case it tries to eat him. But that's all he does he doesn't spin or bolt he just needs to give it a lot of space.

A gut feeling is telling me its not pain. I know when he has a sore back or the saddle doesn't fit, he moves away from the saddle if he knows its gonna hurt. He is a sensitive horse.

 

[milliepops]

but if his saddle was fitted before the muscle atrophy happened, how can it possibly still fit now? I think that's what a few people are getting at? Your horse has apparently changed shape significantly, so surely the saddle can no longer fit as well as it did beforehand.

 

[rachk89]

So what did he say about the possible cause of the atrophy on one side?

He said that is just under muscled but he wasn't worried about it. Think because he is obviously unfit and overweight. I probably just haven't been exercising him properly before winter which is my fault I am too soft on him. I did mention that he hadn't lost muscle on his neck but he wasn't concerned. I do need to school him better and get him working more to help build up the muscle it is my fault he is like this. A lack of confidence combined with him spooking at stuff in the summer didnt help me be able to school him effectively. But now we are both over that so I hope to get him looking better.

 

[rachk89]

but if his saddle was fitted before the muscle atrophy happened, how can it possibly still fit now? I think that's what a few people are getting at? Your horse has apparently changed shape significantly, so surely the saddle can no longer fit as well as it did beforehand.

The saddle was actually fitted with that in mind I have just never felt the difference as I have never sat on him bareback. But when I got a different saddler months ago she said he had less muscle on the left side so she got it to fit with that in mind. I thought I had helped that with the schooling but I havent. It did get adjusted a while ago but maybe it will need adjusting again. Won't find out til I put it on him again and check.