Back straps on gag bits

[Gamebird]

Just a musing really.

I have used a back strap on a Neue Scule Universal before to good effect - good for horses who don't like too much 'gag' action - and wondered why people don't use them more often with other sorts of gags.

I think I've (very) occasionally seen them used with a 3-ring gag - mostly by pro yards - but never with a bit like a Tom Thumb or with any other sort of bits. I get the impression that the concept came in with Neue Schule but perhaps people have been doing this for years?

Why aren't they more regularly used and who uses one with anything other than a universal/3-ring gag?

 

[photo_jo]

I've been using one on a nathe combination but the bit broke in half

 

[quizzie]

I am using one with a wrapped curb chain on a 3 ring gag. It enables me to use a gentler mouthpiece, & , by spreading the action, I can be a lot softer with the hand. In general,the horse I use it on responds well to curb chain bits, & SJs well in a kimblewick, but I wanted something with a slightly different action xc so he didn't confuse the 2 phases!.

 

[Bubbles]

My trainer ran xc with a strap on a tom thumb on my horse, haven't tried it myself but she felt it helped.

 

[meardsall_millie]

Can I have a minor whinge? I desperately feel the need to get this off my chest

The 3 ring snaffle together with some other bits commonly referred to as gags (including the completely inappropriately named 'American Gag') are not gags! They don't have the same action as a true gag (eg a Cheltenham gag) - ie they don't raise or elevate the horses head (no matter what the bit may be called or what the manufacturers fancy website may tell you ). They actually have a similar action to a curb bit (encouraging flexion of the poll) but without the curb chain.

The addition of a back strap doesn't give the same action as a curb chain (which encourages relaxation of the lower jaw), as it doesn't sit in the curb groove, it simply stops the bit rotating too far (so reducing the poll pressure). It should also be used with caution as the bones higher up the jaw are very delicate and are easily damaged (or at the very least cause soreness or bruising).

With some of the bits, the addition of a back strap will not make a huge amount of difference, it really depends how long the shanks are and therefore how much leverage there is.

Phew - thank you. Feel much better now.

(Sorry GB, didn't mean to hijack but it seeing as you were the OP, and you have broad shoulders it seemed an appropriate place for my moan )

 

[ecrozier]

Meardsall_Millie - how does a curb chain encourage relaxation? Never used one myself so just wondering?
I use a curb strap on my Arab in his universal gag - which I use roundings on - and he certainly seems to prefer that to the same bit without.
I do wish more people understood that the 3 ring snaffle/gag whatever you call it isn't designed for use with one rein on bottom ring though

 

[meardsall_millie]

Meardsall_Millie - how does a curb chain encourage relaxation? Never used one myself so just wondering?
I use a curb strap on my Arab in his universal gag - which I use roundings on - and he certainly seems to prefer that to the same bit without.
I do wish more people understood that the 3 ring snaffle/gag whatever you call it isn't designed for use with one rein on bottom ring though

The curb bits work on a system of levers which work on various points of the horses head - the poll, the curb groove, the tongue and the bars. As the shanks move back pressure is applied to the poll encouraging the horse to flex, the curb chain tightens into the curb groove, and 'tightens' the bit in the mouth resulting in additional pressure on the tongue and bars encouraging the jaw to relax (to escape the pressure) and the nose to retract.

It's essential the curb chain is correctly fitted - too loose and it will allow too much rotation of the shanks (extra poll pressure) and will allow the chain to move too high out of the curb groove onto the sensitive jaw bone. Too tight and it will result in constant additional pressure on the tongue and bars, possibly causing the area to numb and bruise.

(Sorry, I'm turning into a bit geek )

 

[Gamebird]

The 3 ring snaffle together with some other bits commonly referred to as gags (including the completely inappropriately named 'American Gag') are not gags!

s'OK, I realise that. I guess I was just being sloppy in my terminology and using the common names

The addition of a back strap doesn't give the same action as a curb chain (which encourages relaxation of the lower jaw), as it doesn't sit in the curb groove, it simply stops the bit rotating too far (so reducing the poll pressure). It should also be used with caution as the bones higher up the jaw are very delicate and are easily damaged (or at the very least cause soreness or bruising).

I think that's why I quite like them - I would prefer a 'brake' on the angle of rotation and I'm more worried about the adverse affects of poll pressure than pressure on the underside of the mandibles. Having had a horse who became neurotic about poll pressure I'm not keen to create the same problem again. I also had one who developed a perfect line of white hair across her poll after a season hunting in a (correctly fitted and used!) Cheltenham gag. She never seemed sore or bothered but it bothered me a bit.

(Sorry GB, didn't mean to hijack but it seeing as you were the OP, and you have broad shoulders it seemed an appropriate place for my moan )

Is that what you call a backhanded compliment? They're pretty broad, both literally and figuratively, and I may have let the side down a little initially with my sloppy terminology. You may considered my hand slapped!

Now my moan - weymouths with no curb which are free to rotate through >90 degrees. Can't even begin to imagine the degree of poll (and bar) pressure produced from what's supposed to be an instrument of finesse.

 

[OneInAMillion]

They don't have the same action as a true gag (eg a Cheltenham gag) - ie they don't raise or elevate the horses head (no matter what the bit may be called or what the manufacturers fancy website may tell you ). They actually have a similar action to a curb bit (encouraging flexion of the poll) but without the curb chain.

Finally, someone who speaks sense!!! When searching for a bit I was told by some of the "names" on here a gag would raise the horses head - thought I must be crazy when I was convinced poll pressure would lower the head

Anyway I always use one with a backstrap now - imho the action is much more how it was intended than without as without rather than exert proper poll pressure the bit just lifts up in their mouth

 

[Laafet]

I use a back strap on my Dutch Gag or 'Continental Snaffle' whatever we are calling it now! (LOL) I have found that my horse prefers the action more with the strap on, I usually ride him in a snaffle but he gets strong cross country so rather than heave of his mouth constantly I just up the bit a little, he then canter along happily with his head in a normal position so he can see the fences. But then we don't use a martingale either due to his habit of tucking his nose on his chest.
My personal bug bear is roundings used on anything, its like riding with the hand brake on.

 

[shortstuff99]

I used to use a chinstrap on my 'dutch gag/snaffle thingymebob'. I used it to stop the bit rotating to much, giving me more control jumping as my mare had a tendency to run through me when jumping. I think someone may have said to me once that they should always be used with a strap.

 

[_EVS_]

OK now I am really confused?! I though the principle rule of thumb as it were was that anything above the snaffle ring lowered the head and anything below raised it and therefore the 2 together created the gag effect hence the dutch gag?

My horse came to me in a Dutch Gag and when I asked for suggestions of altenatives on here cos he was going round BTV and then throwing his head up in front of jumps I was told it was the DG causing it

Please help my addled brain cos if I dont understand correctly what the gag is doing I'm not going to be figure out what it is he doesnt quite like!!!

Sorry to hijack the thread GB but I do find bits quite fascinating and in response to your earlier thoughts I do remember some years ago going to a lesson on a previous horse with a SJ 'name' who after watching me for 10 mins promptly whipped off my flash and turned it into a backstrap on the Dutch gag!

Kettle chips and wine to the most helpful explanation!!!!

 

[ecrozier]

How do roundings act as a handbrake? Eg on a universal gag, I thought they made the action somewhere between that of the rein just on lower ring or just on snaffle ring?

 

[meardsall_millie]

EVS - never believe all you read on HHO! Of all the things that drive me nuts on here (and there are many ), the misconception that a 3 ring snaffle will raise the horses head is probably the worst

In simple terms, to raise the head, the bit needs to act on the lips - a true gag (Cheltenham, Nelson, etc) will do this - of course it will also work on the poll and encourage flexion.

A snaffle will also act on the lips and raise the head (of course to a much lesser extent than a gag) when the horse is working in a longer and lower outline. As the horse works in a higher outline the snaffle will act more on the tongue and then the bars.

I've already waffled about how the curb bits work - it's a very different action to the gag!

 

[ester]

I use one on frank, (well spare flash strap!) purely to stop the 3 ring gag over rotating. You can see it in this pic

. The gag def brings his head down (stops the oggle at thing in distance thing too!) but he doesn't lean on it like he does his pelham.

 

[SpottedCat]

So Heather from Neue Schule bit advice line told me that the Dutch gag has a head raising action...and it certainly did on my horse, who threw his head in the air and ended up jumping the string at one event when he ran through the bridle...

She told me to ditch it and go for a Waterford or jointed Pelham, used with roundings, perhaps the most hated of all HHO random bit prejudices because it is a bit that 'can't work' coupled with something that is just lazy horsemanship for those people who can't be arsed to use two reins. Because of course a Pelham with a break in it can't work as a pelham and despite the fact that a bit with only one mouthpiece can't possibly have a separate snaffle/curb action with 2 reins, HHO laws of physics are somehow different to the rest of the known universe. Probably the fault of CERN since they discovered stuff that travels faster than light.

 

[_EVS_]

M_M - thanks for this - so any bit advice for a strong/spooky SJ-er who gets hold of the bit and can fling his head up when coming into jumps ie need something so keep him round and softer (he is fine/soft when schooling!)??

(He does panic a bit bless him and I have just started lessons with a BS accredited coach who I hope will also help)

 

[ester]

SC, I reckon all horses are different!

I thought the jointed pelham issue was that there is a risk that the you will just end up squashing (for want of a better word!) the lower jaw between the nutcracker action and the curb chain.

 

[SpottedCat]

Ester how would that work? If the nutcracker action is the issue then surely as you bring the sides together then because the chain hangs on the rings it slackens the chain? Plus the action on the rein can't possibly bring the two halves of the bit closer together - unless everyone else uses their reins very differently from me - but I tend to find that the horse's neck prevents me from pulling the reins in such a way as to bring the two halves of the bit together... That is also why it makes no sense to use the bit across your arm to 'feel the action' - unless of course you intend to pull downwards on your reins under the horse's chin when sat on it.

 

[meardsall_millie]

So Heather from Neue Schule bit advice line told me that the Dutch gag has a head raising action...and it certainly did on my horse, who threw his head in the air and ended up jumping the string at one event when he ran through the bridle...

But with respect SC () that's hardly raising the head and elevating the shoulders in a controlled manner is it - possibly a touch of evasion?!

(And Neue Schule have a bit called the Elevator - don't even get me started on that )

I quite agree with you about the jointed pelham - possibly the biggest dichotomy of the bitting world - however it's just one of things that works for some horses. Go figure!

Anyway - why are you on here and not getting plastered at the event party?!

 

[only_me]

Very confused!

A True gag's (cheltnem gag etc.) action is to raise the head - right or wrong?

The neue scheule universal bit's action is to lower the head?

The dutch gag (bubble bit/3 ring gag - Although I refuse to call it a 3 ring snaffle - cos it isn't imo!) 's action is lower the jaw but in effect raises the head (and could shorten the neck?)?

Just trying to get it the right way round - would be very grateful if someone could explain!

 

[SpottedCat]

Having dinner! I don't particularly 'do' getting plastered either. I appreciate that means I'm probably not fit to be an eventer, but then again I think I also proved that quite well today too!!

 

[SpottedCat]

Also - Heather was pretty blunt with me - she said words to the effect of 'people use this bit thinking it will lower the head when in fact it has a head raising action'. Now I'm no bitting expert, hence calling their helpline, so I went with what the expert told me...

 

[ester]

lol no idea, probably another example of a fallacy that goes round. Have heard both that version and that you cannot engage the curb chain as it will become slack.. obv these two theories are complete opposites!

 

[meardsall_millie]

Also - Heather was pretty blunt with me - she said words to the effect of 'people use this bit thinking it will lower the head when in fact it has a head raising action'. Now I'm no bitting expert, hence calling their helpline, so I went with what the expert told me...

And I think that's the problem - if they don't know, how the heck are the rest of us supposed to muddle through?

EVS - I'm really sorry (and I'm genuinely not being rude) but I wouldn't even try to offer advice on which might be a good bit to try over the internet without knowing you - your riding ability and experience, and your horse - its way of going and conformation. Do you have an instructor or know someone experienced in bitting? - I would have a chat with them, and they will be able to give you some really sound advice

 

[SpottedCat]

But everything she suggested did work as it was supposed to for me...so I would use her again. Everything she said was spot on. She did tell me why it has a head raising action but I really cannot remember the explanation, which isn't much help!!

 

[meardsall_millie]

Very confused!

A True gag's (cheltnem gag etc.) action is to raise the head - right or wrong? - Yes (and flexion of the poll)

The neue scheule universal bit's action is to lower the head? - No

The dutch gag (bubble bit/3 ring gag - Although I refuse to call it a 3 ring snaffle - cos it isn't imo! - then we'll have to agree to disagree!) 's action is lower the jaw but in effect raises the head (and could shorten the neck?)? - No

Just trying to get it the right way round - would be very grateful if someone could explain!

My comments in red are 'in a nutshell' answers - see my long waffles earlier in the thread for a full explanation!

 

[star]

i use a french link jointed pelham with roundings out hunting. Shoot me now! I know it is considered a hideous combination of bad things but it works for my horse. the curb chain most definitely does come into action when you pull on the reins because i can tell when it's kicked in as it's what actually stops my horse! i can stop him when needed, hold him in the right place in the field and he doesn't chuck his head in the air and run away. I'm going to stick with it!

for XC I'm still experimenting - I put him in a french link 3 ring gag on the 2nd ring after finding him too strong in a french link full cheek but have found he backs off that a bit too much. Tried it on the top ring but he just went back to what he was like in the french link and tore round madly out of control which isn't fun round Tweseldowns twists and turns! He's a horse with a naturally high head carriage - he doesn't need anything to raise his head that's for sure. Was wondering if he might prefer the gag on the 2nd ring with a back strap on it to lessen the poll pressure or given his reaction to curb pressure on the pelham whether he'd back off even more? I think the pelham would be too much for him for XC. Also debated putting roundings on the gag between first and 2nd rings to try and get some kind of happy medium? Any ideas?

 

[only_me]

Great thank you

 

[_EVS_]

M_M - Thanks and I totally appreciate what you say given you dont know me etc. Am taking lessons with fab new BS trainer so hoping he will help but also always keen to hear peoples suggestions etc.

thanks for your guidance on the gag