Back straps on gag bits

[Broodle]

OK, so a question for the cognoscenti...

There are lots of people who use a NS universal but wouldn't be seen dead near a 3-ring 'gag'. To me the only difference is that the rings are varying sizes and slightly offset of one, and the other is a fifth of the price. I can't see more than a miniscule mechanical difference. So - snobbery or a totally different bit of kit?

Mechanically speaking they seem to me to be pretty much identical, as you say

 

[Broodle]

m_m, I have no idea, but having used a universal and a 3 ring on the same horse, and seeing the difference, there is something in it... apparently (something I have read in the quest for knowledge ) it's due to the distance from the mouthpiece below the bit being less than the distance above the bit... whereas in 3 rings it's equal.

Hmmm... Mechanically speaking (sorry, ) this is just a leverage thing, and can only have an impact on how easy it is for the rider to bring the bit into action, i.e. how hard they have to pull to bring the mouthpiece closer to the headpiece. The head squeezing action is the same whatever the relative sizes of the rings of the shanks.

As you said earlier, it surely depends on whether the horse is more sensitive in the poll or lips/mouth as to whether their head comes up or goes down.

The clever marketing that goes into expensive bits is really extraordinarily effective!

 

[Baydale]

From my experience of the three/four ring gag, any head-raising action has been resistance to the amount of leverage; none of my horses have, or need, a degree in engineering to tell me that they don't like them.

I assume that the relative expense of the Neue Schuele (can't do an umlaut, sorry) bits is in the Salox that they're made from, is it not? Unfortunately my horses tell me they like them so I have a little collection.

I'm kinda losing the will to live here too, but what I'm trying to say is that that horse will tell you what works and what doesn't, so there has to be a degree of flexibility in one's approach to bitting, regardless of what the mechanics, engineers, books and websites tell you.

 

[Horsemad12]

So should we be using a back strap ;-)

 

[Baydale]

So should we be using a back strap ;-)

Do you get the required result without one?

If not then try one and see if you get the required result.

If that doesn't work maybe the bit isn't the problem.

 

[KatB]

I'm kinda losing the will to live here too, but what I'm trying to say is that that horse will tell you what works and what doesn't, so there has to be a degree of flexibility in one's approach to bitting, regardless of what the mechanics, engineers, books and websites tell you.

Exactly. Regardless of what the theory is, the horse knows what it wants to do in reaction to what bit, so roll with it

 

[camilla4]

- but I'm reminded of the saying "better to have a bucketful of hands than a bucketful of bits".

Trying to avoid jumping in on the debate (following it with interest though!) but have to say that I LOVE this quote, Baydale!!

 

[TableDancer]

Hello, sorry to resurrect this debate but as I've just waded through it I thought I'd see where everyone's thinking is a couple of years on

I opened the thread as I'm experimenting with bitting for miniTD's little horse: he gets very strong XC, I don't want to bit him up too much as she (like most people) is far from the finished article and can, when things turn out unexpected, be too slow to release the contact However, from a safety point of view, she needs a bit more than current choice, which is a Waterford Universal with a back strap, as he is grabbing the bit and carting her whenever she turns down hill (and at slightly less than 8 stone there's a limit to what she can do about it...) and also, on occasion, locking on and charging at fences when he thinks he knows what he's doing.

Previous jockey also found him strong, rode him in a vulcanite pelham, but I'm not a great pelham fan, plus I'm not completely convinced it's the optimal choice for this horse as I've seen the photos of him in it and he looks very short and tight in the neck, which he doesn't do in the Universal.

Having discussed with various friends, my current possible next choices are to stick with the Waterford Universal, which he seems to quite like amd works very well for SJ, and add either a Controller Noseband or substitute a chain backstrap for the spur strap we'd been using... Thoughts, anyone?

Finally *whispers* I'm going to disagree with M_M - sorry I think bits which act on the poll do, indeed, raise the head. I was taught this iin BHS days, amd it has subsequently been my experience in general. The reason seems simple to me: What does a horse do when it has pressure on it's poll? Eg when it is pulling back when tied, or when you put any sort of pressure behind the ears for any reason? It always raises its head, however ridiculous this seems. A bit putting pressure on the poll therefore raises the head, and for me it is the curb chain action (correctly used), plus the horse's acceptance of the bit and correctly applied leg to hand aids which cause a horse to flex at the poll. Just sayin'

 

[Gamebird]

Wow. There's a blast from the past TD!

I suspect I may not be much help with miniTD - you see them in the flesh and are infinitely more knowledgeable than me - but if you're concerned about her ability to release the contact quickly enough I'd go for a non bit-related option ie. the controller noseband. In my opinion horses either love them or hate them and you'll know pretty quickly whether it's the answer. At risk of teaching you to suck eggs they do need to be pretty tight to be effective.

A kineton might be another option but obviously is reliant on the rider to make it work, and conversely release it.

 

[lucemoose]

I would use a chain or bar curb on the universal as then at least the pressure is released to some extent. I don't feel comfortable with controller noseband as there is always a constant pressure going on

 

[deskbound]

Hi TD. My small orange friend sounds not dissimilar - show jumps in a happy mouth Pelham with a big link heavy curb, seems to strike a balance between her needing to be in charge and my ability to offer some guidance... XC have Waterford 3 ring on second ring up plus back strap. Have grackle v tight too (re tightened before mounting) as she holds breath (clever....!). What about a high curb chain in back strap? Or Waterford Pelham? Interested to see where you end up....

 

[Baydale]

Thanks for resurrecting this thread TD, if only that it has provided me with some entertainment in my lunch hour.

It appears I haven't moved on in the last 18 months with my approach to bitting as I can't think of anything new to use, or I can, but I'm not sure it would be any use in this situation:

http://www.onlineforequine.co.uk/saddlery-tack/5011-neue-schule-tranz-beval.html

For miniTD's little horse I would probably try a Kimblewick and/or a controller noseband. You could then tweak the type of curb chain you use - single link, double link, leather, elastic - see if that makes a difference. I do love the Universal though so that would be another I'd try, a Waterford Universal sounds great and I assume the Salox means it's less likely to make the corners of the mouth sore as the bog standard Waterfords sometimes do.

 

[BeckyD]

I have almost no experience so have little to offer, but just thought I'd throw a curveball option into the mix - my horse was *very* strong and constantly leant on me/pulled me out of the saddle XC, and I tried so many different bits - including a waterford and universal but not a waterford universal. He ran blindly in a universal with the tranz lonzenge (with a curb strap) and was dangerous (Lucinda Green said he was dangerous in it) so she suggested waterford, which worked for a few weeks then he just started to lean down on it and again I couldn't stop. I went back to nathe 3-ring gag which is fine for SJ, but for XC he gets short and tight in it and then flips out (rears).

I was then recommended to try a Myler with hooks and as my friend had a low port comfort snaffle with hooks, I tried it. It works. I don't know how, but it does. The only bad thing about it is that if I do hang onto his mouth too much before a jump he flings his head about - but that's useful for me as I know I'm going wrong and I know to let go a bit. I'm guessing it must be more severe than it looks?? He schools sweetly in this though and is much steadier in the contact than anything else. He doesn't tend to over-react if I get left behind and catch him in the mouth, whereas in the pelham, nathe gag and waterford, he'd have a strop if I caught him. Obviously I don't intend to catch him!

Just another option to think about. I think they are supposed to be used with cavesson noseband (I discovered this a couple of months ago) although I use mine with a grackle - I'm not sure whether I should stop doing that.

 

[TableDancer]

Wow. There's a blast from the past TD!

I suspect I may not be much help with miniTD - you see them in the flesh and are infinitely more knowledgeable than me - but if you're concerned about her ability to release the contact quickly enough I'd go for a non bit-related option ie. the controller noseband. In my opinion horses either love them or hate them and you'll know pretty quickly whether it's the answer. At risk of teaching you to suck eggs they do need to be pretty tight to be effective.

A kineton might be another option but obviously is reliant on the rider to make it work, and conversely release it.

Mm, that was my thinking too, but I'm not convinced that he crosses his jaw and he doesn't open his mouth much, so it may not really help. Plus I am aware of the "constant pressure" issue (see below).

I would use a chain or bar curb on the universal as then at least the pressure is released to some extent. I don't feel comfortable with controller noseband as there is always a constant pressure going on

I agree with you, see above On the other hand, at least it doesn't involve putting more metal in his mouth...

Hi TD. My small orange friend sounds not dissimilar - show jumps in a happy mouth Pelham with a big link heavy curb, seems to strike a balance between her needing to be in charge and my ability to offer some guidance... XC have Waterford 3 ring on second ring up plus back strap. Have grackle v tight too (re tightened before mounting) as she holds breath (clever....!). What about a high curb chain in back strap? Or Waterford Pelham? Interested to see where you end up....

Yes, the high chain back strap is where I'm leaning towards. Also, making sure I get tension just right, I hadn't really appreciated till reading this thread that if I do it tightly I'm reducing the leverage action, and I think I may have fallen into this trap on Saturday, had it tight as I was thinking that would make it more severe...

Thanks for resurrecting this thread TD, if only that it has provided me with some entertainment in my lunch hour.

It appears I haven't moved on in the last 18 months with my approach to bitting as I can't think of anything new to use, or I can, but I'm not sure it would be any use in this situation:

http://www.onlineforequine.co.uk/saddlery-tack/5011-neue-schule-tranz-beval.html

For miniTD's little horse I would probably try a Kimblewick and/or a controller noseband. You could then tweak the type of curb chain you use - single link, double link, leather, elastic - see if that makes a difference. I do love the Universal though so that would be another I'd try, a Waterford Universal sounds great and I assume the Salox means it's less likely to make the corners of the mouth sore as the bog standard Waterfords sometimes do.

I have several Kimblewicks in my bitbox I like the wilkie-type thing we used to use one, but without the yummy mouthpiece, on one of T's ponies years ago... So far no sore mouth corners, I have kept an eye open - partly the Salox, partly the fairly small light person on the other end of the reins and partly the design of the NS one I think - it has extra long "nodules" on the outside of the mouthpiece as compared to the inner links so that there is a smooth bit in contact with the corners of the mouth

 

[SpottedCat]

You may find that mini-TD gets a different reaction in the pelham anyway - Chatter1 didn't like the GBO at all in the jointed pelham which I jumped him in, and preferred a cheltenham gag, whereas I hated the feel of the cheltenham gag. I say this only because it may end up that you don't see the tightness with mini-TD and the pelham that you saw with the previous rider and the pelham, and at least in the short term you may find that if respect has previously been instilled in a pelham you may at least get a memory of that, which helps break the cycle?

Also, I rang Heather at Neue Schule to get advice on bitting - there was no hard sell, but she discussed with me and then gave me 3 ideas, the final being 'Liverpool driving bit and if you can't hold him in that please stop trying to go XC'!! Luckily the first suggestion worked fine (she suggested waterford pelham, I went with jointed as couldn't find a waterford one in time and the jointed one worked!).

 

[deskbound]

I've played a lot with tightness of back strap, not sure I had it quite right at wkend but trial & error - mine also snatches & goes.... I tried jointed Pelham to no avail but Waterford Pelham on my list of possibles if I get stuck again! Also tried danger Pelham (dressage mouthpiece) & sadly shanks are so short it's pointless. Annoying, but worth a mention in case it's helpful? Mine is also strong on flat....

 

[Horsemad12]

My mare was doing this at the start of last season (rising 6 and thought she knew it all) and my instructor (well respected and I suspect someone you know from Juniors) had me put her in a grackle and REALLY tightened it up!

We considered a control noseband but luckily she got over that stage and did not need it.

She now has a grackle on done up normally, but every now and then when she gets a bit OTT it gets tightened up for part of a lesson!!

 

[TableDancer]

Thank you all so much for your suggestions

 

[TarrSteps]

I was then recommended to try a Myler with hooks and as my friend had a low port comfort snaffle with hooks, I tried it. It works. I don't know how, but it does. The only bad thing about it is that if I do hang onto his mouth too much before a jump he flings his head about - but that's useful for me as I know I'm going wrong and I know to let go a bit. I'm guessing it must be more severe than it looks?? He schools sweetly in this though and is much steadier in the contact than anything else. He doesn't tend to over-react if I get left behind and catch him in the mouth, whereas in the pelham, nathe gag and waterford, he'd have a strop if I caught him. Obviously I don't intend to catch him!

My "magic bit" (currently with LEC whose horse does not agree ) is a Myler - it's not so much the "severity" as in the mouthpiece is smooth and the leverage arms are not very long, but in the very specific action of some of their bits. They "make" the horse do something very specific and if that's what you need for your particular horse, you're good to go. What you say about not being able to hang on to them is an important point - as they are based on western bits they are not designed to be used that way. I noticed last time I looked on the Myler site they even had "warnings" on some of their bits now, including a general one about not riding in an "English" way on "Western" bits.

 

[TarrSteps]

You may find that mini-TD gets a different reaction in the pelham anyway - Chatter1 didn't like the GBO at all in the jointed pelham which I jumped him in, and preferred a cheltenham gag, whereas I hated the feel of the cheltenham gag. I say this only because it may end up that you don't see the tightness with mini-TD and the pelham that you saw with the previous rider and the pelham, and at least in the short term you may find that if respect has previously been instilled in a pelham you may at least get a memory of that, which helps break the cycle?

I know I am teaching you to suck eggs, TD , but this is very much true in my experience, that bits work as part of an organic loop, with the horse, the rider and the situation all making up the balance. When I used to school a lot of kids horses I often rode them in something very soft and then the kids rode them in a tougher, similar version - however soft I am, I am still a big person, just as MiniTD is, well, mini. Also, I "like" certain feels, probably because they are familiar and/or they fit my style of riding, so I tend to "like" bits that produce that feel on a horse. Another rider might go a different way. Because it's not a confusing enough subject . . .

Also, I rang Heather at Neue Schule to get advice on bitting - there was no hard sell, but she discussed with me and then gave me 3 ideas, the final being 'Liverpool driving bit and if you can't hold him in that please stop trying to go XC'!! Luckily the first suggestion worked fine (she suggested waterford pelham, I went with jointed as couldn't find a waterford one in time and the jointed one worked!).

I've also had good luck with bitting advice lines, including suggestions over the years I would likely not have thought of on my own. But then I don't know much about the subject!

 

[PapaFrita]

*Wading in waving engineering degree to the fore*

Mechanically speaking, three/four ring bubble bits do pretty much the same thing as a cheltenham gag - when you pull on the reins you reduce the distance between the top of the headpiece and the bit. Whether your horse equates this 'head squeezing' action to poll pressure/head down or upwards pressure on lips/head up is entirely up to him/her

Oh, and a pelham with roundings is just a slightly grander looking kimblewick

Not that I want to keep reviving the post, but this is what I thought! Phew.

 

[BeckyD]

What you say about not being able to hang on to them is an important point - as they are based on western bits they are not designed to be used that way. I noticed last time I looked on the Myler site they even had "warnings" on some of their bits now, including a general one about not riding in an "English" way on "Western" bits.

Mmm that's very interesting. If you come across that again can you send me the link? I've just nosied round the Myler website and can't find it. Am keen to ensure that I'm using the bit as intended (although hopefully horse would say if he was unhappy - he's not shy in coming forwards to express his discontent).

My main problem is finding a BD-legal bit that he goes nicely in. Finding a snaffle with tongue relief that BD might allow, just isn't happening. It's so frustrating that weymouths are allowed ports, but snaffles aren't.

 

[Brimmers]

Mmm that's very interesting. If you come across that again can you send me the link? I've just nosied round the Myler website and can't find it. Am keen to ensure that I'm using the bit as intended (although hopefully horse would say if he was unhappy - he's not shy in coming forwards to express his discontent).

My main problem is finding a BD-legal bit that he goes nicely in. Finding a snaffle with tongue relief that BD might allow, just isn't happening. It's so frustrating that weymouths are allowed ports, but snaffles aren't.

I'm no dressage expert but I don't think its the port which BD don't allow, its the hook which are the problem because they introduce poll pressure. Bombers bits do some tongue relief bits, may be worth having a look at those to see if they are dressage legal?

Whilst I'm jumping on the bandwagon, my horse SJ in a French link Pelham and the curb definitely does make a difference. Lost it on the way out to a competition on sunday (oops!) and I suddenly had a much stronger horse.

 

[TarrSteps]

Nope, no ports allowed. No hooks either but that's a separate issue. As far as I know Bomber has not yet got its 'regular' snaffles approved, although they did say they were trying. Have you looked at the Informed Design bits' they are mullen mouthed, rather than ported. I'm not SURE they are legal as have never asked directly myself but a student.did ask and was told they were okay. Also, I find some horses that prefer more tongue space like the demi-Anky design.

 

[Llanali]

I know I am teaching you to suck eggs, TD , but this is very much true in my experience, that bits work as part of an organic loop, with the horse, the rider and the situation all making up the balance. When I used to school a lot of kids horses I often rode them in something very soft and then the kids rode them in a tougher, similar version - however soft I am, I am still a big person, just as MiniTD is, well, mini. Also, I "like" certain feels, probably because they are familiar and/or they fit my style of riding, so I tend to "like" bits that produce that feel on a horse. Another rider might go a different way.

This is a hugely interesting area for me and one we have discussed much recently. I'm pregnant, and have currently got my trainer competing my mare jumping- a 6 month baby bump doesn't produce good folding technique!!- and the lad that rides at home for her has also had a play with mare too.

He finds her too strong in her eggbutt cyprium snaffle with a grackle, and I like it as does trainer. Trainer also is happy to ride her in more bridle, and I am definitely not! Having ridden her horses, I find them similar to the feel I like, and having ridden his, I find them nerve wracking because they don't provide enough feeling into a fence. I like to be pulled in a bit, he doesn't, trainer goes either way!

Its not a right or wrong equation, nor is it entirely due to size though I think that is much of it, but I think traditionally we may have overlooked personal preference as well as horse preference when bridling up. I have always gone with what the horse likes, but these days I pay more attention to what I like as well.

The point about different bits working differently on the same horse in the same scenario with a different rider is key- we have one in a mikmar, and I can't persuade the horse off the floor in it- but his jockey jumps newcomers in it comfortably and the horse loves it!

 

[GermanyJo]

thought I would add something into the mix .. I am also one of those people who hate roundings on pelhams ... however, .. just browsing through my german rule book , checking on what bits are allowed .. for jumping and XC up to and including Novice .. you are only allowed snaffles and pelhams .. what has shocked me is that in the rule book it say Pelhams MUST be used with roundings !! ... but also with 2 reins (attached to the roundings ...... this sounds like absolute nonsense to me ....... esp the 'must have 2 reins attached to roundings .. what is that about ?? I saw someone with that set up the other day and could not work out why anyone would do that .. but now I suppose I know ...

just hoping now that my boy turns out either to not be strong XC (unlikely) .. or when he is , that he goes in a pelham as the option for breaks until you get to Intermediate seems to be very limited here

 

[Brimmers]

Nope, no ports allowed. No hooks either but that's a separate issue. As far as I know Bomber has not yet got its 'regular' snaffles approved, although they did say they were trying. Have you looked at the Informed Design bits' they are mullen mouthed, rather than ported. I'm not SURE they are legal as have never asked directly myself but a student.did ask and was told they were okay. Also, I find some horses that prefer more tongue space like the demi-Anky design.

Oh how interesting, I was wrong! Any idea why they aren't allowed?

 

[BeckyD]

Nope, no ports allowed. No hooks either but that's a separate issue. As far as I know Bomber has not yet got its 'regular' snaffles approved, although they did say they were trying. Have you looked at the Informed Design bits' they are mullen mouthed, rather than ported. I'm not SURE they are legal as have never asked directly myself but a student.did ask and was told they were okay. Also, I find some horses that prefer more tongue space like the demi-Anky design.

Tried all of those to no avail (hard to believe I know!). He even bolted in the Demi-Anky when cantering and I tried to take a little inside flexion. Great one, thanks Bill; I really wanted to experience the wall of death around my arena. Several times.

Sorry TD for hijacking your post. Promise I won't say anything more.