Back straps on gag bits

[racingdemon]

have read this with interest.... i'm very retro with my bitting choices..... kimblewick anyone?

but, just thought i'd add, i've had a few horses arrive in 'bubble bits' who went along with their heads in the air, not because of the action of the bit per se... but because they couldn't stand the bit & had found going along like a giraffe evaded it sufficiently!!! (change of bit = happy ponies)

I jump one of mine in a french link kimblewick.... the work of the devil i am sure

personally i think a bit of retro bitting whereby people could only use a snaffle or a double bridle would be very funny!

 

[Baydale]

have read this with interest.... i'm very retro with my bitting choices..... kimblewick anyone?

but, just thought i'd add, i've had a few horses arrive in 'bubble bits' who went along with their heads in the air, not because of the action of the bit per se... but because they couldn't stand the bit & had found going along like a giraffe evaded it sufficiently!!! (change of bit = happy ponies)

I jump one of mine in a french link kimblewick.... the work of the devil i am sure

personally i think a bit of retro bitting whereby people could only use a snaffle or a double bridle would be very funny!

Oh I LOVE a kimblewick. And a gag (retro Cheltenham), often with only one rein. And a pelham (jointed Happy Mouth). I also love a double bridle but I doubt my OH's hunters would thank me for sending them out to work wearing one. I hate the 3 ring bubble gags and may well have thrown three of them out this week when I was having a clear out.

Of course we'd love it if they'd all go in a snaffle but at the end of the day the horse will tell you what works and what doesn't, and surely a big part of successful bitting must be down to:

1. conformation - what works for one horse possibly won't work for another differently shaped horse;

2. education - the stage that both horse and rider are at;

3. expectation - that a bit will magically solve any problems with 1 and 2 in one fell swoop.

Seeking a quick fix is understandable - I'm certainly not damning anyone for wanting to make their life easier - but I'm reminded of the saying "better to have a bucketful of hands than a bucketful of bits".

 

[meardsall_millie]

Amen to that Madam Baydale.

You really are a bottomless pit of sayings aren't you......

 

[Baydale]

Nope, I just have three or four favourite ones that I drag out, ad infinitum.

 

[Dotilas]

I used a strap on my 'bubble bit, i found it gave me a much more 'precise feel' and my mare was much happier with the decreased poll pressure.

She was spectacularly strong however, and a double jointed/ french link pelham was recommended to me, as when the curb chain is used, the mouthpiece rotates and so does the middle plate, apparently having a sort of 'dr bristol' action. It worked is all I can say...

 

[Tnavas]

Can I have a minor whinge? I desperately feel the need to get this off my chest

The 3 ring snaffle together with some other bits commonly referred to as gags (including the completely inappropriately named 'American Gag') are not gags! They don't have the same action as a true gag (eg a Cheltenham gag) - ie they don't raise or elevate the horses head (no matter what the bit may be called or what the manufacturers fancy website may tell you ). They actually have a similar action to a curb bit (encouraging flexion of the poll) but without the curb chain.

The addition of a back strap doesn't give the same action as a curb chain (which encourages relaxation of the lower jaw), as it doesn't sit in the curb groove, it simply stops the bit rotating too far (so reducing the poll pressure). It should also be used with caution as the bones higher up the jaw are very delicate and are easily damaged (or at the very least cause soreness or bruising).

With some of the bits, the addition of a back strap will not make a huge amount of difference, it really depends how long the shanks are and therefore how much leverage there is.

Phew - thank you. Feel much better now.

(Sorry GB, didn't mean to hijack but it seeing as you were the OP, and you have broad shoulders it seemed an appropriate place for my moan )

Glad you feel better but unfortunately you are incorrect. You cannot get a curb actioni on a bit unless you can fix the mouthpiece to one place in the mouth. To make a Dutch Gag into a curb action add the back strap to it, then the mouthpiece is held down in the mouth. Then so long as the rein is below the level of the mouthpiece you will get a mild curb action. If the bit is unjointed you will get an increased action.

The dutch gag doesn't work in the same way as the balding or cheltenham gags as these physically lift the mouthpiece high in the mouth and make it seriously uncomfortable for the horse. It doesnt lift the head once it is low towards the ground, it does however raise the head when the horse carries the head at a reasonably normal level. One of the reasons I hate seeing it used with a running martingale.

It does not exert poll pressure until the bit hits the back teeth and then you will get a small amount of leverage that will put a little pressure on the poll.

 

[meardsall_millie]

The dutch gag doesn't work in the same way as the balding or cheltenham gags as these physically lift the mouthpiece high in the mouth and make it seriously uncomfortable for the horse. It doesnt lift the head once it is low towards the ground, it does however raise the head when the horse carries the head at a reasonably normal level.

How exactly do you believe the mechanics of the 'dutch gag' raises the head?

(Not being awkward - a genuine question as this conflicts against my current knowledge of bitting).

 

[Gamebird]

Goodness gracious me. Just look what I started!

Maybe we could start a competition - who can come up with the best new name for the bit formerly known as the American gag??

*Gamebird scuttles back out to her guaranteed-3-ring-gag-free tackroom to check that Carthorse's french link pelham (for XC) and double bridle (for hunting) haven't disappeared in the night*

 

[ArcticFox]

I am not an expert in bitting, but I do believe the 3 ring bit should not be called a snaffle. If it was we would have to compare it to the loose ring snaffle. The LR snaffle works that the mouthpiece freely moves on the ring, and the cheek piece & reins also attach - if a horse goes to lean on this, they find it harder as the ring moves - when you take a pull the mouthpiece does not rise.

Like the LR snaffle - the 'dutch gag' or 3 ring bit comes with the mouthpiece attached loosely to the big ring. This is where imho the similarities end. The cheek piece of the 3RB is attached to a ring above so the big ring is not allowed to move freely. making it more like a gag action - when you pull on the reins, the bit levers and lifts the mouthpiece up the big ring - there fore making the head go up. It does also have a poll action as it also levers on the cheek pieces but imho the mouthpiece comes into play much sooner than the poll pressure as this is the more sensitive.

Personally I am not a fan of the 3 ring as every horse I have ridden in it carries their head high - probably due to evasion. I have used a 3 ring bit with 2 reins to help prevent that.

again imho, I think two reins are very useful in reducing over bitting of sensitive horses that get strong in the ring.

Anyway, as I said I am no expert but that is my opinion of the 3 ring gag.

Also I hope I have explained my understanding to you, not sure it makes sense!

 

[TarrSteps]

'Straigh (or direct) t action' bits, 'leverage' bits or 'combination' bits. Nomenclature problems solved.

 

[Broodle]

*Wading in waving engineering degree to the fore*

Mechanically speaking, three/four ring bubble bits do pretty much the same thing as a cheltenham gag - when you pull on the reins you reduce the distance between the top of the headpiece and the bit. Whether your horse equates this 'head squeezing' action to poll pressure/head down or upwards pressure on lips/head up is entirely up to him/her

Oh, and a pelham with roundings is just a slightly grander looking kimblewick

No idea about back straps - sorry OP!

 

[avthechav]

*Wading in waving engineering degree to the fore*

Mechanically speaking, three/four ring bubble bits do pretty much the same thing as a cheltenham gag - when you pull on the reins you reduce the distance between the top of the headpiece and the bit. Whether your horse equates this 'head squeezing' action to poll pressure/head down or upwards pressure on lips/head up is entirely up to him/her

Sitting here with my brow furrowed trying to represent the bit and horses mouth with my hands...(its not working!!).

I had a Cheltenham gag on my strong cobby mare when I was a teenager who used to shove her head down, throw me forwards and tank off. She went very sweetly in the Cheltenham gag, no fights and everyone much happier....but surely when you pull the rein the bit rises, which does like you say shorten the distance between the headpiece and the bit. This is prob fairly uncomfortable but also must make the horse want to life head to counteract pressure in mouth...?

Whereas when you pull on the rein on a 3 ring gag, surely the whole thing pivots around the cheeckpiece/ bit joint, putting pressure downwards and slightly inwards on the mouth. I can't work out how this would cause the distance between the headpiece and the bit to shorten?

.....not being stroppy just curious!!

 

[meardsall_millie]

Mechanically speaking, three/four ring bubble bits do pretty much the same thing as a cheltenham gag - when you pull on the reins you reduce the distance between the top of the headpiece and the bit.

Sorry now I'm confused (as someone without an Engineering degree )

When you pull on the reins with a cheltenham gag, the bit physically lifts in the horses mouth as it slides up the roundings.

With a 3 ring (as with a pelham, weymouth, etc) the cheek ring above the snaffle ring rotates forward, the shank below the snaffle ring rotates back - there is very little (although I accept there is a small but negligible amount) lifting of the bit in the mouth.

 

[avthechav]

Millie...great minds think alike hahaha!

 

[meardsall_millie]

Ha - avthechav - confusion all round it seems!

 

[LEC]

I think clearly my approach of ignorance in bitting is the way forwards. I prefer the approach of shove it in its gob and if it does not rear or tank off then its a good result.

 

[ester]

I think clearly my approach of ignorance in bitting is the way forwards. I prefer the approach of shove it in its gob and if it does not rear or tank off then its a good result.

 

[meardsall_millie]

Yep - rapidly coming to the same conclusion LEC........

 

[LEC]

actually though I jest the scary thing is 95% of the riding public do just that!!

May I suggest bitless? You can get some excellent results. This is my favourite demonstration of the harmony and joy you can get by being bitless.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Gbm6ERl5ag

 

[meardsall_millie]

actually though I jest the scary thing is 95% of the riding public do just that!!

May I suggest bitless? You can get some excellent results. This is my favourite demonstration of the harmony and joy you can get by being bitless.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Gbm6ERl5ag

 

[Broodle]

Sorry now I'm confused (as someone without an Engineering degree )

When you pull on the reins with a cheltenham gag, the bit physically lifts in the horses mouth as it slides up the roundings.

With a 3 ring (as with a pelham, weymouth, etc) the cheek ring above the snaffle ring rotates forward, the shank below the snaffle ring rotates back - there is very little (although I accept there is a small but negligible amount) lifting of the bit in the mouth.

Ah, but on a 3/4 ring gag the mouthpiece actually moves around the snaffle ring (in a similar fashion to a loose ring snaffle) at the same time as the shank is rotating back - thus, the mouthpiece moves upwards in the mouth, so that it is closer to the bridle headpiece.

I rest my case m'lud

*Slight disclaimer here - I am actually a bit of an ignoramus about bits in general and generally am with LEC on the 'shove it in' approach, but mechanics I do understand!*

 

[avthechav]

Ah, but on a 3/4 ring gag the mouthpiece actually moves around the snaffle ring (in a similar fashion to a loose ring snaffle) at the same time as the shank is rotating back - thus, the mouthpiece moves upwards in the mouth, so that it is closer to the bridle headpiece.

I rest my case m'lud

*Slight disclaimer here - I am actually a bit of an ignoramus about bits in general and generally am with LEC on the 'shove it in' approach, but mechanics I do understand!*

ahh ok so as it slide effectively round the snaffle ring the distance shortens- i get that now...(oh god and I am meant to be a science teacher!!!),

However I would still argue 'your honor' that there is a slight shortening in the distance but after that the pivot action will kick in putting pressure downwards, whereas with the cheltenham gag the shortening just continues...?????

However as a general, very clever, expert biting advice goes...Lec has it sussed!!

 

[KatB]

Would have to agree with the "horse will tell you" approach....

However, the dutch/bubble/3 ring bit (won't call it a "gag" ) has definitely had a head raising action on every single horse I have seen in it.

As said, the rotation of the top ring will only go as far as the cheeks will let it, and then it lifts in the mouth, having a raising action. It has poll pressure, and I understand was originally "invented" by sjers to mimic the effect of draw reins... so they obviously thought it should have a lowering action too, but I have seen a majority of horses go inverted in it! FWIW, Lucinda Green takes them out of most horses mouths on her clinics, as she likes them to drop their heads to look, and said no horse will do that in a dutch gag, so dislikes them as a result...

However, I have also had horses put their heads on the floor in a cheltenham gag.... it all depends whether they are more sensitive in the poll or the mouth I guess

 

[Gamebird]

OK, so a question for the cognoscenti...

There are lots of people who use a NS universal but wouldn't be seen dead near a 3-ring 'gag'. To me the only difference is that the rings are varying sizes and slightly offset of one, and the other is a fifth of the price. I can't see more than a miniscule mechanical difference. So - snobbery or a totally different bit of kit?

 

[SpottedCat]

OK, so a question for the cognoscenti...

There are lots of people who use a NS universal but wouldn't be seen dead near a 3-ring 'gag'. To me the only difference is that the rings are varying sizes and slightly offset of one, and the other is a fifth of the price. I can't see more than a miniscule mechanical difference. So - snobbery or a totally different bit of kit?

I've often thought that....and decided I was obviously missing something fundamental about the universal and therefore probably shouldn't be using it anyway

 

[KatB]

I prefer the universal as the thing I don't like about the 3 ring gag is the extension below and above the mouthpiece is the same, so it has a hugely woolly action! The Universal has a definite head lowering action, and acts a bit more like a beval snaffle, so obviously the small amount of difference in ring placement does make a difference to the horse Do agree though, the difference looks very non specific...

 

[meardsall_millie]

Sorry Kat..... but how can a 3 ring raise the head and yet a Universal lower it?!

As the main contributor to this thread so far (gobby - me?! ), I've pretty much lost the will to live and I'm now going to withdraw from the debate and say nothing more

 

[Saratoga]

I've always used a back strap on gags, learned from a SJ trainer of mine. Seems to improve the action of the bit.

 

[Llanali]

QR as not read all of thread- but Star, I'm no expert but when my mare had the same..... Too much in gag on 2nd ring, too little on big ring and full cheek, I went to a bevel bit...... Also sometimes called a loop snaffle? Shires makes one and I use it with two reins....

 

[KatB]

Sorry Kat..... but how can a 3 ring raise the head and yet a Universal lower it?!

As the main contributor to this thread so far (gobby - me?! ), I've pretty much lost the will to live and I'm now going to withdraw from the debate and say nothing more

m_m, I have no idea, but having used a universal and a 3 ring on the same horse, and seeing the difference, there is something in it... apparently (something I have read in the quest for knowledge ) it's due to the distance from the mouthpiece below the bit being less than the distance above the bit... whereas in 3 rings it's equal.