Backing or BRAKING...

[claireandnadia]

I use my whip 'lightly' as that's all my mare needs for reinforcement only. My girl is a sod to load and I have been advised to give a good hiding with the lunge whip. This will NEVER happen whilst I own this horse as much as in my head I think ooo I could just beat you haha.
I do not agree with this method at all. I think the real reason these riders do this is down to their own frustration and it makes them feel better to use a horse as a punch bag.

 

[OldFogie]

Horses only ever bite me once.

Ah so you thrash them to death then? Sorry to be facetious but you are rather laying yourself open to it. I know all the arguements for "punishing" and I don't agree with any of them - I don't go along 100% in favour of beatifying Monty Roberts but his approach to things is far more my style. Watch how horses engage with each other and adapt.

It is ridiculous to suggest that unacceptable behaviours, even ones based in DNA can't be trained out.

Well hell no, but I say that only because "train" and mean a soft or hard. To my mind, if you beat an animal into submission - it will resent it.

Stallions at shows don't go round humping every in season mare!

If my mare didn't send a gilt edged invitation - she would have killed any interlopers. Stallions in the wild do not rule the herd - it's the mares that do the choosing and I rather think the stallions know that and don't get above themselves. Hormones and pheromones a language without words.

 

[fburton]

Ah so you thrash them to death then? Sorry to be facetious but you are rather laying yourself open to it. I know all the arguements for "punishing" and I don't agree with any of them - I don't go along 100% in favour of beatifying Monty Roberts but his approach to things is far more my style. Watch how horses engage with each other and adapt.

Just so you know, OldFogie, there's a group of people who work with horses and other animals - myself included - that take punishment to mean doing something after a behaviour occurs that makes the behaviour less likely to occur in future. The "something" could be anything, and while as a rule it has to be aversive (unpleasant) for the horse in order to work - otherwise why would it discourage the behaviour? - the unpleasantness doesn't have to be a beating. As I have stated several times, there is a spectrum of aversives from the so-mild-as-to-be-invisible to the brutal. ETA: I consider increased tension or 'bump' in a leadrope if a horse diverges from the walking line to be punishment. An observer would have to be quite perceptive to see this.

Punishment doesn't mean the same thing for everybody. I'm sorry if that muddies the waters, but it's a fact!

If my mare didn't send a gilt edged invitation - she would have killed any interlopers. Stallions in the wild do not rule the herd - it's the mares that do the choosing and I rather think the stallions know that and don't get above themselves. Hormones and pheromones a language without words.

Not always. I have seen mares being covered against their will in the pasture breeding situation - somewhat traumatic for both mare and stallion. It's rare, but it can happen. In hand covering, the odds are stacked rather more in favour of the stallion.

 

[OldFogie]

.....and leave Johnwayning to someone else...

He used to talk the talk but his walk always worried me a bit...... However; fools rush in so that's my excuse.

I used to run up horses in a market, this in itself was tantamount to a death wish as there was fierce competition to so much as hold one - all us lads could be described as rough and ready so many of these events led to me going a few rounds bareknuckle with a gang - one at a time if I was lucky! I learned to ride like a cossack and on quite a few occassions my questionable talents were called on for a race before the bidding - this mark you, was not on a racecourse but down the High Street on market day - bareback, headstalls and a weapon to use on or put off the other jockeys.
Trotting up big farm horse was a regular feature - tractors were taking over but there was sometimes good money made by farmers who wanted plough types. Some of the ones I led were giants and they could get very anxious in the strange surroundings let alone being goaded by every bidder near enough to hit them, after I'd had one my feet badly trampled ( all my toe nails point upwards from the toes being broken and not set properly) I took exception to the affray and got hold of one of these guys with sticks and dragged him up and down the run by his ear. It was all passed off as "fun of the fair" with the auctioneer inviting bids but they barred me after that.

 

[ycbm]

Ah so you thrash them to death then? Sorry to be facetious but you are rather laying yourself open to it. I know all the arguements for "punishing" and I don't agree with any of them - I don't go along 100% in favour of beatifying Monty Roberts but his approach to things is far more my style. Watch how horses engage with each other and adapt.



Well hell no, but I say that only because "train" and mean a soft or hard. To my mind, if you beat an animal into submission - it will resent it.



If my mare didn't send a gilt edged invitation - she would have killed any interlopers. Stallions in the wild do not rule the herd - it's the mares that do the choosing and I rather think the stallions know that and don't get above themselves. Hormones and pheromones a language without words.

As I've suggested to you once already, I think you joined this forum to create friction, not to have sensible discussion.

Nowhere have I suggested beating an animal, never mind into submission.

Stallions get erections whether the mares are interested or not. The idea is trained out of them for showing, as are plenty of other DNA based behaviours in every walk of equestrian life.

Watch how horses engage with each other? If I took that as my sole model I'd think breaking a leg could be good discipline. There's nothing that can be as violent to a horse as another horse.

 

[DabDab]

Ah so you thrash them to death then? Sorry to be facetious but you are rather laying yourself open to it. I know all the arguements for "punishing" and I don't agree with any of them - I don't go along 100% in favour of beatifying Monty Roberts but his approach to things is far more my style. Watch how horses engage with each other and adapt.



Well hell no, but I say that only because "train" and mean a soft or hard. To my mind, if you beat an animal into submission - it will resent it.



If my mare didn't send a gilt edged invitation - she would have killed any interlopers. Stallions in the wild do not rule the herd - it's the mares that do the choosing and I rather think the stallions know that and don't get above themselves. Hormones and pheromones a language without words.

There is a massive difference between training a horse using some form of negative reinforcement and laying into it.

There are no examples of herd animal that I can think of where negative reinforcement doesn't form part of their learning and development.

The notion of 'punishing' or actively not 'punishing' a horse is a human concept in my opinion, and a horse has understanding of it.

 

[fburton]

There are no examples of herd animal that I can think of where negative reinforcement doesn't form part of their learning and development.

Or indeed punishment (assuming we're making the proper distinction between negative reinforcement - in which a behaviour is reinforced and made more likely to occur - and punishment where it is discouraged and made less likely to occur).

 

[DabDab]

Or indeed punishment (assuming we're making the proper distinction between negative reinforcement - in which a behaviour is reinforced and made more likely to occur - and punishment where it is discouraged and made less likely to occur).

Yes sorry, I'm really meaning punishment as you define than negative reinforcement

 

[stormox]

There is a difference between punishment and correction. Just as theres a difference between bribe and reward..

 

[fburton]

There is a difference between punishment and correction. Just as theres a difference between bribe and reward..

You're certainly right about the second. I'm not sure about the first because when people talk about "correction" it sometimes seems they mean punishment in a euphemistic way. How would you define it?

 

[stormox]

You're certainly right about the second. I'm not sure about the first because when people talk about "correction" it sometimes seems they mean punishment in a euphemistic way. How would you define it?

I would define correction as showing a horse (in a way he understands) that a certain behaviour in not to be tolerated. Ie the tap AS a horse strikes out with his front leg, or a nudge with the elbow AS he tries to bite you. Punishment is done afterwards, and sometimes in anger, like when people return home to find a dog poop on their carpet and shout at the dog and push his nose into it. But the dog has no idea why he is on the receiving end of 'punishment'

 

[milliepops]

I do think there's a difference between punishment and correction that goes beyond language.
In human terms, if you were learning spelling and made a mistake writing a word, I'd correct you by giving the correct spelling.
That would be a correction, but I would be a bit sad if you felt punished by it.. If I'd said go and stand in the corner until you work it out, that would be a punishment for the mistake, whereas with the correction we would just get the correct answer and move on.

It's a little harder to think of an equine equivalent at this stage of the day but I def separate the 2 in my head with horses
My new one gets totally distracted by new sights and can't concentrate. If she zones out gazing at something when we are working, I correct her by asking for her attention and continuing with the exercise.

I don't punish her for getting distracted, it's all part of her learning how to be a riding horse. I might punish her (in an appropriate way ) if she kicked me though... there's not an equivalent correction if it came out of the blue rather than when you were actively training.


ETA, I see my way of thinking is different to stormox - I would say if you can't deal with whatever behaviour in the moment then it has no place at all, you can punish immediately without emotion etc. That kind of action a minute later had no place in horse training.

 

[fburton]

Interesting to hear two quite different views about what "correction" entails. I'm struggling to think how I'd use the word myself if I had to. I guess it would be more along the lines of getting a horse to move away from one action (or place) and towards another, using momentary pressure or 'drawing' - if we're talking about ground work and handling. Under saddle, aids would be used to bring about corrections in direction, or changes in tempo, speed or rhythm if the horse deviated from intended. I don't naturally think of corrections as reprimands or punishment, although that's what I tend to assume other people mean.

 

[DabDab]

Ha, interesting. I actually associate the word 'correction' far more negatively in my head than 'punishment', mainly I think because a horse can punish itself (e.g. By hitting a wall because they weren't looking where they were going or by an electric shock if they touch electric fencing), but at its most effective it is devoid of emotion and very simple and non-fluid. The word correction always seems much more devised and deliberate and intrinsically human to me

 

[milliepops]

funny how we are all different for me correction carries no sense of emotion, misadventure or morals - it's just making something that was an honest mistake into something correct. Like doing corrections on your homework Didn't get the sums wrong on purpose, Miss

Whereas punishment reminds me more of having knowingly done something wrong and the consequent reaction

 

[DabDab]

Yeah, I think that's why I plumped for 'negative reinforcement' in my earlier answer, though I'm not sure that that quite fits the bill either... Hmm

The word correction just makes me think of a correction center

 

[OldFogie]

I do think there's a difference between punishment and correction that goes beyond language.
In human terms, if you were learning spelling and made a mistake writing a word, I'd correct you by giving the correct spelling.

Well that was either an inspired guess or a neat bit of ESP because one of my junior school teachers gave me a damn good hiding for exactly that!

The pain didn't bother me that much and besides, I was used to far worse from my old man but it did shock me quite badly - that a teacher would do that - not just a smack but five or six of them across the back of me legs (short trouser days). So I thought I'd get my own back, firstly by not crying or showing any emotion and then by staring at him unbinkingly until the whole class was looking at me rather than him. Of course this provoked him even more and when I just sat at my desk in stead of going to him when called again - he came charging at me shouting (most teachers did this sort of thing in my day). I was the fastest runner in the school so my confidence was extreme so I legged it around the school screaming and went home.

The next day my old man took me to school and had a quiet word with the bully teacher - "when my boy doesn't know something - it's your job to teach him - what if we all went around belting people because they didn't know things eh? What do you know about carpentry?"

My dad stood about 5ft 10" but was about the same diamension width wise so this conversation didn't last long.

 

[OldFogie]

Interesting to hear two quite different views about what "correction" entails.

In my day, you'd quite often hear adults say "spare the rod and spoil the child" - it's a biblical quotation and I would think that most people regard the beating of children with sticks belongs back in the early Iron Age when those stories were written.

However; I'd turn the saying on its head by agreeing, no, don't spare the rod - take your child fishing! (I actually don't like the idea of pulling fish out of their world by a hook caught in their mouths but you get the idea? A child will learn far better through kindness patience and understanding than it will from chastisement - so do horses.

A friend of mine is the author of a very good book on foaling and bringing on - she has run a well respected stud and breeding establishment for years - all of the youngsters that go through her yard, no nothing but kindness patience and understanding - some people might find it too slushy or overly sentimental along the lines of "well, I haven't got time for all that" but I know what I'd prefer if I was a horse!
Another aquaintance is a Trainer and his new staff induction never fails to end with the warning - "if I see any of you hitting or so much as raising your hand to one of my horses - you're out the same minute!"

 

[ycbm]

OF we don't all buy horses which have had as good a start as is provided by your author friend.

Can you explain to me how you would take a horse which has developed dangerous behaviours with a previous owner, and make it safe to handle in the safest possible timescale, without any form of correction?

I will repeat, in case you did not understand me earlier, 'correction' does not require beating a horse senseless.

 

[DabDab]

No adult ever laid a finger on me as a child, but that doesn't mean that I wasn't disciplined, corrected, punished, whatever. And the fact that I was disciplined does not mean that I ended up screwed up and/or fearful.

The behaviour described in the OP is quite clearly all kinds of wrong, but horses, like humans, do require a little more than love. Above all else horses need consistency so that they feel safe and secure emotionally - confidence that they can always find the right answer means a lot to a young horse.

 

[fburton]

Can you explain to me how you would take a horse which has developed dangerous behaviours with a previous owner, and make it safe to handle in the safest possible timescale, without any form of correction?

How do you define "correction", ycbm? It sounds like it's the same as my (and behavioural) "punishment".

 

[Seville]

In my day, you'd quite often hear adults say "spare the rod and spoil the child" - it's a biblical quotation and I would think that most people regard the beating of children with sticks belongs back in the early Iron Age when those stories were written.

However; I'd turn the saying on its head by agreeing, no, don't spare the rod - take your child fishing! (I actually don't like the idea of pulling fish out of their world by a hook caught in their mouths but you get the idea? A child will learn far better through kindness patience and understanding than it will from chastisement - so do horses.

A friend of mine is the author of a very good book on foaling and bringing on - she has run a well respected stud and breeding establishment for years - all of the youngsters that go through her yard, no nothing but kindness patience and understanding - some people might find it too slushy or overly sentimental along the lines of "well, I haven't got time for all that" but I know what I'd prefer if I was a horse!
Another aquaintance is a Trainer and his new staff induction never fails to end with the warning - "if I see any of you hitting or so much as raising your hand to one of my horses - you're out the same minute!"

Love this, and totally agree with you as I posted earlier in this thread. The OP should report this. " well known show jumper" to either FEI or other governing body....or film it next time and make it public.

 

[ycbm]

How do you define "correction", ycbm? It sounds like it's the same as my (and behavioural) "punishment".

Exactly FB, but OF would have gone bananas again if I had said 'punishment'.

For it to work, the horse has to not like it. Basically, that's a punishment. But it doesn't need to be a beating.

I read once about a man who cured biters by having a baked potato straight out of the oven handy and getting the horse to bite that 'by accident'. That takes more timing than I've got, but that's the idea!

 

[fburton]

Exactly FB, but OF would have gone bananas again if I had said 'punishment'.

Which would confirm my suspicion that "correction" gets used as a euphemism.

For it to work, the horse has to not like it. Basically, that's a punishment. But it doesn't need to be a beating.

Exactly.

I read once about a man who cured biters by having a baked potato straight out of the oven handy and getting the horse to bite that 'by accident'. That takes more timing than I've got, but that's the idea!

That sounds like an apocryphal story. It would be a real faff to arrange and execute. The idea is sound though.

Aggressive biting will have an underlying cause. As well as punishing the behaviour - or allowing the horse to self-punish - I'd also want to understand and work on what made the horse want to bite in the first place, if possible.

For mouthy nibbling, I'll stick to my knuckle/finger technique as I haven't found anything that works better for that.