Backing or BRAKING...

R

RichardRider

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Usually am found in "Club House," but would like as much commentary as possible, if possible to something i witnessed yesterday. Will not mention where or who but watched a young mare (Selle Francais for jumping,) being "backed" yesterday and it rather bothered me. OK, i was told that she was a bit bonkers and since her arrival a few days ago, very difficult...The person doing the riding seemed patient and is a top show jumper etc but when the young mare DID ANYTHING, in the way of sudden nervous movement, mounting, dismounting, even leaving the outdoor school and 'stepping down' on the path(4meter oak bar holding sand from school before path, back down to stables and rest of establishment, indoor arena,) where the mare jumped around a bit, the rider beat the snot(literally) of her with his riding crop ON THE FACE AND ONLY THE FACE...

OK, I've been riding for 25 years and having begun at the mature age of 40 don't claim to be ANYTHING but a VERY amateur sitter on of horses; own two, one helped train(not back,) when he was 5, but, again, am not a professional,etc...Another friend, and English(excellent rider/jumper/dressage expert,) once told me when he lived closer to us and would hack out with me on my young and difficult(still, lol) big Selle Francais, that "using the riding crop" was necessary for safe riding, and especially when hacking out. "I'd rather my horses be afraid of ME than WHATEVER they "think" is hiding in that bush. My horse(still) a bit afraid of nothing, but I NEVER got used to (or did this,) beat him up when he shyed at something(which sometimes constitutes a flying 360and tends to still( SCARE THE WITS OUT OF ME, LOL.) But to be accurate this English Mate NEVER STRUCK THE HORSE ON THE FACE...

So, question, is this very brutal manner necessary with certain young horses. I saw the same rider do similar when another younger horse, a6 year old, and already jumping in competition, shyed while cantering in the outdoor school(forest surrounding and at times wild boar cross in the evenings, the horses get a wiff of it and sometimes, when doing the first few turns around the school, one can be surprised.) Again he beath the life out of the horse around her(again a mare) her head...

I am sincerely curious. If, in the end, you'd have a "better" horse and/or safer if using these "negatively reinforced stimuli?"

Thanks...richard
 
I read your first paragraph only 😢

Outdated and inhuman. I know what I'd have done with the riding stick, and would probably have been arrested for it.

And, of course, you know it's not necessary.
 
No. No no no no no.
First rides should be a positive experience for the horse in every way possible. Beating a horse that spooks on its first rides is like slapping a toddler that can't do algebra...
 
Nope.

Occasionally you come across a horse who has lost all sense of good manners and civilised behaviour, which might need a fairly firm and timely wallop or two to remind it not to walk over the top of you. They are physical animals and they are much bigger and stronger than us, and bad manners are dangerous.

But that wallop doesn't fall on the face, ever; it's delivered as an extraordinary correction and not a training method; and it's for rudeness, not fear.

I am sure there are some riders who use violence to achieve a submissive horse. I do not believe that such a horse will ever fulfil its potential; it certainly won't be "better" by any measure I would wish to measure horses by.
 
RR it should bother you as that is NO way to treat any horse what ever they have done and NO they will not end up with a better, safer horse.

On the riding crop for safe riding again a horse should not be more scared of you than an imaginary object, a horse should never be scared of a person/whip. The crop/whip is just to help back up an aid, get attention, open a gate with. It is not for use as a weapon.

I am sure you will get a lots of posts on here people very distressed about this treatment of poor mare and if anyone says that is it part of horse training they will not be coming any where near my horse.
 
Horses do need to understand the use of the schooling whip but IME horses never need beating .
You often get horses with a poor understanding of the use of the whip and people are responsible for that .
Beating a very young horse as RR describes is the mark of a bad trainer and rider all you can do is remove your horse from the orbit of someone like that .
I am no fluffy with my horses I expect them to toe the line but everything is set up to show them the way without confrontation.
We are supposed to be working to have a happy athlete as a equine partner you don’t get that by losing your temper with a horse .
 
I like the saying “If you rule a horse by fear there will always be something that it’s more scared of than you”.

It’s cruel and inhumane to frighten anything into submission. Most genuine horse riders want the sort of relationship where they have a partnership with the horse. A good horse will do what’s required because it knows what’s being asked and is happy in its work.
 
Disgusting behaviour. I'm afraid I wouldn't have been able to hold my tongue if I had witnessed that, no matter who the rider was.

Putting the horse in its most vulnerable position- teaching it to accept something on its back, which goes against absolutely everything ingrained into it for survival, and then beating it about the face when it shows signs of being worried by the situation. Some people don't deserve to be anywhere near horses.
 
Were there any other witnesses than yourself? Whichever country this happened in there is probably an animal welfare body which you could report the matter to. Animal cruelty of this order needs stamping out. The rider is an ignorant sadist. The way to stop a horse spooking and being jumpy is to get it to trust the rider. Did you think anybody civilised would think this rider was doing the right thing?
 
I have had to deal with horses after this sort of treatment, and it is awful. It breaks my heart.

Like others, I am not afraid to correct a horse, using a whip if necessary. My observation is that the horse has to know how to make it stop. For instance, if a horse is tardy in reacting to the leg he can be ticked with the stick, knowing it will stop if he moves forwards. I have had one trying to run over me and I have hit full force to keep myself safe, but again will stop the instant the horse does. The horse can make the action stop.

In 2012 I saw one of the Olympic horses prior to the Olympics (not a team GB horse) be subjected to this sort of behaviour. I was riding my own horse at the time. The rider beat the horse, got off and toe ended it in the stomach, got on and beat it, got off and toe ended it. The horse was fresh, but I could not see that it did anything to provoke such an attack.

My instinct was to go rip the rider from the horse, but my own horse was cowering from the sound of the thwack of the whip landing on flesh, so I protected him first and left the area.

I did consider reporting the rider, but decided that rider XXX, an Olympic rider, would be believed over Red-1. If I had been wearing my Go-Pro I would have proceeded to Police and FEI, and I believe that rider would not have been competing for their country, as a minimum.

I would never hit a horse for being scared of something, it tends not to make them less scared. I may reinforce an aid if the horse ignores it.

You know the difference in your heart, when a whip is used with a bad heart. It is different than when used to explain something, or even in desperation to avoid a dangerous situation. The difference is temper.
 
NEVER on the head, ever. Sometimes horses need a whack, I have no problem with that, but not more than 3, always immediately, and NOT on the head. Horses should be respectful, not fearful.
 
I'm not averse to allowing a horse to bump its mouth or head against a hard part of my anatomy to 'self-punish' biting or careless head swinging, but hitting a horse in anger, especially on the face, is liable to be massively counterproductive. Imo, it's ignorant, incompetent and downright nasty.
 
absolutely not.......if i had been there i dont think i could have stopped myself having a go at the ignorant rider. i would also see if there is an animal welfare organisation that you could report this to as it needs to be stopped a s a p.....if the person competes maybe the governing body would take action like they are beginning to do with the dressage...
 
Besides the obvious cruelty, this type of treatment is counterproductive to training/riding.

Horses who are fearful are less likely to try new responses. In otherwards when you try to teach the horse to do something it hasn't done before it will be much slower to learn than it would be if it wasn't afraid.
 
Very common here in France sadly. I have seen lame horses being whipped around big courses.

I came here to breed nice jumping ponies but put a swift stop to that idea after a year here seeing some really terrible behaviour whilst out competing with friends.

Some of the treatment I've witnessed of stallions here would shock decent horse folk to the core.

Not everyone is like this but many riders are very whip happy.
 
How awful. Never ever a reason for hitting a horse in the head IMO - someone hit my horse in the eye with a whip years ago (which I did not agree with), the horse ended up with permanent reduced vision in that eye as a result. I dont agree with hitting a horse anyway, the only time I would consider it is if a horse tried to kick me or something and meant it - they would get kicked back. But I dont see why so many people and "professionals" think its acceptable or even normal to smack a horse anywhere on its body just because its had a moment to act like a horse. Of course, they will spook occassionally for example. Why punish for that? Just end up with a robot horse who truly has had all its spirit and character broken. So sad.
 
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RichardRider said:
I am sincerely curious. If, in the end, you'd have a "better" horse and/or safer if using these "negatively reinforced stimuli?"
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Very simple answer, no you won't, ever.

As others have said a scared horse cannot learn properly, so it won't ever be "better" at anything.

As for your English friend, if you rely on being more frightening to the horse than whatever else is around then one day the horse will meet something more scary than you are and you will come a (well-deserved) cropper. Sometimes you do have to be a bit forceful with a horse if its being nappy and looking for excuses to spook, rather than genuinely scared, but its not about being more scary its about teaching them to go forwards when told and doesn't necessily mean hitting them (noise and movement can be equally effective).

Negative re-inforcement is not beating a horse over the head, that is just brutality. "Training" of that type is usually the recourse of desperate (and conscience-less) people who have met the limit of their ability and have no idea how to resolve an issue.
 
amymay said:
No, he didn't need to ask. It's simply a good old fashioned flaming post ��
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I hope your right, it would be nice to think this stuff doesn't really go on and no-one anywhere actually needs to ask if its acceptable.

Unfortunately looking at the OP's posting history I see no reason to think he is a troll, and given where he is based and what I have heard from people in France I'm not so sure that he doesn't need to ask - after all if you are taught that this is normal and see respected horse people behaving that way then you may wonder if it is just you that thinks it is wrong.
 
No Laura, RR is not a troll at all. He is, however, an intelligent and articulate man who knows very well that this is not how you treat any animal.
 
KittenInTheTree said:
I cannot comprehend why no one stepped in to stop the rider. Everyone present is to blame - the rider for their abuse, and the rest of you for your inaction.
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Because, sadly, many horses, especially competition horses, in France are commodities, and not pets. Much of the handling here would be considered brutal in comparison to the UK, and beating a horse into submission is a fairly common occurrence; therefore witnesses are either ignorant or inured to the fact that it shouldn’t be done.
 
Ate you saying OP that the rider beat the horse on the face while actually riding it? Or did they get off? Both are awful but to hit a horse round the face while riding it seems a good way to get a bloody nose! I hope they did!!
 
RichardRider said:
Usually am found in "Club House," but would like as much commentary as possible, if possible to something i witnessed yesterday. Will not mention where or who but watched a young mare (Selle Francais for jumping,) being "backed" yesterday and it rather bothered me. OK, i was told that she was a bit bonkers and since her arrival a few days ago, very difficult...The person doing the riding seemed patient and is a top show jumper etc but when the young mare DID ANYTHING, in the way of sudden nervous movement, mounting, dismounting, even leaving the outdoor school and 'stepping down' on the path(4meter oak bar holding sand from school before path, back down to stables and rest of establishment, indoor arena,) where the mare jumped around a bit, the rider beat the snot(literally) of her with his riding crop ON THE FACE AND ONLY THE FACE...

OK, I've been riding for 25 years and having begun at the mature age of 40 don't claim to be ANYTHING but a VERY amateur sitter on of horses; own two, one helped train(not back,) when he was 5, but, again, am not a professional,etc...Another friend, and English(excellent rider/jumper/dressage expert,) once told me when he lived closer to us and would hack out with me on my young and difficult(still, lol) big Selle Francais, that "using the riding crop" was necessary for safe riding, and especially when hacking out. "I'd rather my horses be afraid of ME than WHATEVER they "think" is hiding in that bush. My horse(still) a bit afraid of nothing, but I NEVER got used to (or did this,) beat him up when he shyed at something(which sometimes constitutes a flying 360and tends to still( SCARE THE WITS OUT OF ME, LOL.) But to be accurate this English Mate NEVER STRUCK THE HORSE ON THE FACE...

So, question, is this very brutal manner necessary with certain young horses. I saw the same rider do similar when another younger horse, a6 year old, and already jumping in competition, shyed while cantering in the outdoor school(forest surrounding and at times wild boar cross in the evenings, the horses get a wiff of it and sometimes, when doing the first few turns around the school, one can be surprised.) Again he beath the life out of the horse around her(again a mare) her head...

I am sincerely curious. If, in the end, you'd have a "better" horse and/or safer if using these "negatively reinforced stimuli?"

Thanks...richard
Click to expand...

It's possible to train well with "negative reinforcement" that in no way involves beating the snot out of a horse, which would be unacceptable in any circumstances in most people's opinion.

Re: the title of the thread - "backing", to me, is the phase where the horse is taught to tolerate having a rider sitting on it. Whilst "breaking", to me, is the whole process from teaching the horse to be caught/lead/tied up/groomed upto being able to canter a 20m circle in the arena and go on a short hack in company. A horse that has those basics is "broken in" and is ready to be "brought on" by an experienced rider. I have no problem with the term "breaking", though I acknowledge it has fallen out of fashion, with people often assuming it to mean nasty methods were used to train the horse.

ETA: whilst I wouldn't beat a horse up for shying at "nothing", there's a difference in a horse reacting to something and one that's full-on panicking. The panicking horse is only going to panic more if it's hit and will learn nothing useful. The horse who's reacting, who doesn't respond when asked to stop reacting and go forward/stand/whatever will benefit from learning that yes the rider really does mean it, if that means using the whip/voice/hands/heels appropriately that's fine IMO. I agree with your friend that it's better for the horse to be slightly more afraid of the rider than of whatever it thinks is in the bush (your horse spinning round in fright could mean you end up on the bonnet of a passing car one day - far better if the horse learns not to spin), but beating the horse up is never ok or productive. A horse that is beaten into submission might behave, but won't trust it's rider or relax properly and therefore won't work as well, I like horses to be almost like friends, with personalities (friends who do as they're told, though), not emotionless switched-off slaves which is what beating them produces.
 
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Haven't read all replies but when I was backing my mare me and my trainer both agreed that the horse should never feel scared or threatened. I don't believe punishing a horse will help it. I believe having a conversation will.
 
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