Backing or BRAKING...

It's possible to train well with "negative reinforcement" that in no way involves beating the snot out of a horse, which would be unacceptable in any circumstances in most people's opinion.
I would venture to suggest it is impossible to train conventionally without negative reinforcement. The only people who would argue they do avoid use of negative reinforcement altogether would be some of the pure positive reinforcement / clicker trainers, and even then I imagine it would take a high degree of skill and dedication.
 
I would venture to suggest it is impossible to train conventionally without negative reinforcement. The only people who would argue they do avoid use of negative reinforcement altogether would be some of the pure positive reinforcement / clicker trainers, and even then I imagine it would take a high degree of skill and dedication.

I think you're right, I use both negative and positive reinforcement when training as I believe it produces good results in the shortest time-frame. I've yet to meet a horse trained without any negative reinforcement who is safe and a pleasure to be around, though I'm not saying they don't exist anywhere.
 
I think you're right, I use both negative and positive reinforcement when training as I believe it produces good results in the shortest time-frame. I've yet to meet a horse trained without any negative reinforcement who is safe and a pleasure to be around, though I'm not saying they don't exist anywhere.
I think you may be using the term 'negative reinforcement' to mean the same as 'punishment' rather than 'pressure and release'. Apologies if this is not the case and I have misrepresented you. Clarification may be helpful for those who hear the term 'negative reinforcement' and think it refers to reprimand or correction.
 
Usually am found in "Club House," but would like as much commentary as possible, if possible to something i witnessed yesterday. Will not mention where or who but watched a young mare (Selle Francais for jumping,) being "backed" yesterday and it rather bothered me. OK, i was told that she was a bit bonkers and since her arrival a few days ago, very difficult...The person doing the riding seemed patient and is a top show jumper etc but when the young mare DID ANYTHING, in the way of sudden nervous movement, mounting, dismounting, even leaving the outdoor school and 'stepping down' on the path(4meter oak bar holding sand from school before path, back down to stables and rest of establishment, indoor arena,) where the mare jumped around a bit, the rider beat the snot(literally) of her with his riding crop ON THE FACE AND ONLY THE FACE...

OK, I've been riding for 25 years and having begun at the mature age of 40 don't claim to be ANYTHING but a VERY amateur sitter on of horses; own two, one helped train(not back,) when he was 5, but, again, am not a professional,etc...Another friend, and English(excellent rider/jumper/dressage expert,) once told me when he lived closer to us and would hack out with me on my young and difficult(still, lol) big Selle Francais, that "using the riding crop" was necessary for safe riding, and especially when hacking out. "I'd rather my horses be afraid of ME than WHATEVER they "think" is hiding in that bush. My horse(still) a bit afraid of nothing, but I NEVER got used to (or did this,) beat him up when he shyed at something(which sometimes constitutes a flying 360and tends to still( SCARE THE WITS OUT OF ME, LOL.) But to be accurate this English Mate NEVER STRUCK THE HORSE ON THE FACE...

So, question, is this very brutal manner necessary with certain young horses. I saw the same rider do similar when another younger horse, a6 year old, and already jumping in competition, shyed while cantering in the outdoor school(forest surrounding and at times wild boar cross in the evenings, the horses get a wiff of it and sometimes, when doing the first few turns around the school, one can be surprised.) Again he beath the life out of the horse around her(again a mare) her head...

I am sincerely curious. If, in the end, you'd have a "better" horse and/or safer if using these "negatively reinforced stimuli?"

Thanks...richard

What you described is punishment, not negative reinforcement.

An example of negative reinforcement is when one asks a horse to go forward by using one's legs. The negative reinforcement occurs when the pressure of the riders legs is REMOVED.
 
I think you may be using the term 'negative reinforcement' to mean the same as 'punishment' rather than 'pressure and release'. Apologies if this is not the case and I have misrepresented you. Clarification may be helpful for those who hear the term 'negative reinforcement' and think it refers to reprimand or correction.

No, not using it like that at all, sorry if I didn't explain very well, I'll have another go.

Negative reinforcement isn't punishment, which has no place in the training of horses. Negative reinforcement, to me, is the stopping of something unpleasant when the desired result is achieved. Eg. ceasing a leg aid when the horse moves forward. If this is being taught for the first time, or for re-schooling something with bad habits, the cessation of the aid (negative reinforcement) would be accompanied with praise when the horse moved forward (positive reinforcement). That's what I mean when I say I use both positive and negative reinforcement for training. If a leg aid is ignored in a horse who already knows what it means, then a kick/the voice and/or whip will be used as the next step, not as punishment but as a stronger aid to back up the original which is being ignored, and that stronger aid is stopped when the horse goes forwards, it's not punishment it's a stronger form of negative reinforcement.

I've seen people train with solely negative reinforcement and I don't think the results are as good, I think positive reinforcement helps the horse understand what you want and when he's got it right. I've seen those who beat a horse into submission, or who use hands/heels/whip/voice as punishment for the slightest transgression and IMO it achieves nothing useful - just a scared horse who is afraid to do anything at all for fear of getting it wrong and being punished, or a horse who automatically "fights back" to "get in there first" when the human hasn't actually done anything, making that horse dangerous to be around. I've seen people attempt to train with positive reinforcement alone and IME they end up with a thug that does exactly what it likes when it likes, with the rider/handler having little say in things.
 
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What you described is punishment, not negative reinforcement.

An example of negative reinforcement is when one asks a horse to go forward by using one's legs. The negative reinforcement occurs when the pressure of the riders legs is REMOVED.

I cross posted with you, you misunderstood me, I don't mean punishment at all.

ETA: lots of people do view negative reinforcement as punishment though in their opinion, I think that's why some are reluctant to use it as part of their training.
 
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Negative reinforcement is pressure release type train which is how most people train most horses I'd say. The timing of the release rewarding behaviour taking place at that time. Etc. Most people throw in a smattering of positive reinforcement (treats and praise and nice stuff rewarding wanted behaviours) and there's even room for negative punishment (removing nice things timed to to discourage unwanted behaviour- can't think of a practical example with horses though)

The beating around the head the OP describes is at best positive punishment and depending on the timing most likely just out and out temper and revenge rather than actually having any training effect whatsoever. Has no place in horse training in my view. Although negative reinforcement can involve the use of the whip it is as part of a clear esculation of pressure that the horse can switch off with its behaviour... as long as it is reasonable to assume that the horse knows how to switch the pressure off (i.e. it has been taught the require behaviour gradually) then that is fair enough.
 
Thank you, Sugar_and_Spice, for taking time to explain what you meant. We're in agreement over terminology. I'm sorry to have suggested otherwise.

Pretty much agree with you about combining/balancing positive and negative reinforcement. I do think there is a use for positive punishment (in the behavioural sense, and mentioned by PapaverFollis), but would always look for the mildest means of discouraging unwanted behaviours - mild enough to not be immediately obvious in many cases - and never in anger.
 
I cross posted with you, you misunderstood me, I don't mean punishment at all.

ETA: lots of people do view negative reinforcement as punishment though in their opinion, I think that's why some are reluctant to use it as part of their training.

I meant that post for the op.

You do make an interesting point about people being reluctant to use negative reinforcement when they conflate it with punishment.

I suppose most of us train the same way as those who we learn from. I don't think many people know the scientific names and theories. At any rate I think more people are moving away from the 'dominant alpha, leader' type of thinking. It's been discredited in the training of other species for decades :rolleyes4:
 
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Thank you, Sugar_and_Spice, for taking time to explain what you meant. We're in agreement over terminology. I'm sorry to have suggested otherwise.

Pretty much agree with you about combining/balancing positive and negative reinforcement. I do think there is a use for positive punishment (in the behavioural sense, and mentioned by PapaverFollis), but would always look for the mildest means of discouraging unwanted behaviours - mild enough to not be immediately obvious in many cases - and never in anger.

It's a fine line isn't it, negative reinforcement versus punishment. I've witnessed people have what amounts to a temper tantrum at their horse, kicking it and at the same time jabbing it with the reins whilst yelling at it, because it didn't do something that was asked first time, and the horse ends up looking terrified. There's no point to that behaviour whatsoever.

I've dealt with a lot of nappy horses where it's a firmly entrenched learned behaviour, not fear based. My negative reinforcement with some of these can end up appearing to be a temper tantrum on horseback, with in addition to legs/voice/whip the horse jabbing itself in the mouth as it tries to go against my hands and spin round. The difference being it's not done in anger and the second that horse takes even one step forwards the negative reinforcement will stop and I'll revert to being sweetness and light telling it what a good boy it is. To someone who only saw the first part they might think I'd lost the plot.
 
I meant that post for the op.

You do make an interesting point about people being reluctant to use negative reinforcement when they conflate it with punishment.

I suppose most of us train the same way as those who we learn from. I don't think many people know the scientific names and theories. At any rate I think more people are moving away from the 'dominant alpha, leader' type of thinking. It's been discredited in the training of other species for decades :rolleyes4:

sorry mule, I didn't read it properly, my mistake :smile3:
 
As I just shared in ClubHouse, our internet server went dead probably due to recent storm damage for the past day and a half, so I've not been able to follow along, nor respond....Just clicked back on after leaving the dinner table and must hit the sack. Read the first page, and will catch up tomorrow. Hadn't eaten all day and did have a few glasses of wine with the pasta and now I'M TOTALLY SPENT...

Thank you all for your input and advise on this horrible matter...a demain...richard
 
Go and look on PFK site....they have a horse in for treatment with whip marks on its face. I know exactly what I would to the perpetrator. In the case outlined by OP, I'd take photos next time, then go to whatever authority there is in France and punish the barsteward.
 
Negative reinforcement isn't punishment, which has no place in the training of horses

I don't agree with the second half of this statement. There are some behaviours which require some level of punishment in order to stop them. There is a recent thread about a horse flashing out with a front leg which illustrates this perfectly. You can't stop that sort of behaviour with positive or negative reinforcement, only by a very swift reaction to make it clear to the horse that it is unacceptable, and if continued will result in something it finds unpleasant.
 
....... the rider beat the snot(literally) of her with his riding crop

I saw something very similar years ago at the now defunct *ulmer International School of Equitation - and by one of the owners no less. Several of the staff also seemed to favour the "rope, bore and brand'em" approach of cowboy films rather than the gentile refinements of the Spanish School.

I'm afraid that I rather exposed my low born caste by walking out on to the hallowed riding surface to interupt one such session and told the guy doing the beating to desist immediately or get a taste of the same treatment. As I then stood over six foot and can do a good menacing stance - even without a four foot dressage whip - he backed down and could be seen scurrying in a different direction every time I visited.

Monty Roberts disliked seeing wild horses being literally broken by the practice of "bagging" to wear them out till they had nothing more to give
and that was started him thinking about do things differently.

When I was young - the common thought was that all animals had to be "mastered" no matter what and it wasn't looked at as at all cruel - "cruel to be kind" as the saying went because if they didn't cow down they would be done away with anyway so this gave an excuse to some absolute flipping sadists. Even seemingly reasonable farm workers paid scant regard to their charge's feelings sometimes - one of my first jobs on a farm was "tar boy" at shearing time - the lad with a pot of Stockholm Tar and a dob brush to cover any cuts on the shorn sheep. I was soon instructed how to do quite major needlework on sheep that had been practically unzipped - without anesthetic - hold 'em down, do the job, bosh, turn 'em out. I've actually heard many farming sorts back then bitterly complaining about all the trouble such wounded animals caused and curse if they eventually died - as if the poor things had done it on purpose to bring about financial loss!

Bred up on Rider Haggard stories I dreamed of being a White Hunter but very soon realised that even a charging elephant had very little chance against a large calibre rifle bullet and to consciously pursue them for sport was totally immoral. Back then there was over a million in the wild - now they are down to about 20,000 and one dies every half an hour or so just for their ivory.

For my part, I've let all the animals I've been in conact with - be animals - it's me that has to put up with them and not the other way round and that has led me to collect quite a few injuries over the years but there was always a reason for them - the first being, that I hadn't thought enough first! Working with any horse takes time which understandably may not be available in a commercial atmosphere but it must be found if "difficult" sorts are not to be turned into "Impossibles."
 
.......... There are some behaviours which require some level of punishment in order to stop them.

Yes, why not - lets give them all a damn good thrashing!

If you think you can "cure" any equine of a behavior you find unacceptable - you are very much mistaken, they are all dyed in the wool - deeply imprinted through 2 million years of DNA.

A horse - like every other animal ( I'm going to go bibical here:- "after his own kind") will react - funnily enough - LIKE A HORSE!

My lovely, soft, silly, gentle, mare who was usually the soul of disgression when my puny body was around, would still lash out with a front leg with a little squeal if she was feeling (how shall we say?) in need of love! (There have been times when she pinned me against the wall but I think we'll drawn a veil over them!). She would do this even more if she thought her honour was being impuned by inferior beings so I had to be aware of this in the appropriate season.

Horses, I believe, are quite immediate when it comes to action and reaction - they do not possess the concept of crime and punishment - if you hit one they only know that you've hit them and have no idea that you are connecting it something that happened all of thirty seconds ago! As I've said, it's in a horse's nature to strike out with a front foot - some more than others, some hardly at all but none of them "understand" that they've done wrong.
 
I don't agree with the second half of this statement. There are some behaviours which require some level of punishment in order to stop them. There is a recent thread about a horse flashing out with a front leg which illustrates this perfectly. You can't stop that sort of behaviour with positive or negative reinforcement, only by a very swift reaction to make it clear to the horse that it is unacceptable, and if continued will result in something it finds unpleasant.

I think I said something about positive punishment having no place in horse training too. Then I looked at that very thread and thought I might need to revise that statement. I was being idealistic I guess. While ideally you avoid the situation with goid handling, gradual desensitization etc... if a horse does actually go to kick you I do think that it is a situation where well timed positive punishment is needed (possibly, would love to be wrong here). I've done it myself and it had the desired effect (young mare kicked out at me while I was taking back boot off, she got a good thump in the quarter for her troubles. But then we were done. Short and sharp and well timed with no emotion other than a kind of instinctive defence reaction (which surprised me to be honest, my chimp lashed out before I knew what had happened) behind it. She's never gone to kick me again and we then did a tonne of desensitising training on leg handling and she's not funny about them any more)

It's a rocky road though and I think people need to be honest with themselves about how much is training effect and how much is an emotional fear reaction to the horse's behaviour. And remembering that unless the punishment coincides exactly with the behaviour then it is useless and just abuse.

Plus, of course, there is a difference between a sharp word and a thump and beating it up round the head with a stick. And between behaviour that are simply undesired and dangerous behaviours.
 
In relation to punishment...

Yes, why not - lets give them all a damn good thrashing!
I can't speak for ycbm, but your statement pushed a button. Punishment doesn't necessarily mean a "damn good thrashing" or indeed anything violent or even painful or scary. A horse that learns to avoid bitter tasting plants because the bitterness is unpleasant is punished for its poor choice of nibbles. Punishment spans a whole spectrum of severity. Good horsepeople know how far they need to go and will naturally use the mildest form of punishment that is effective. To do otherwise consistently shows a lack of skill and awareness. Seeing someone administer a "damn good thrashing" would almost certain indicate they weren't a good horseman or woman.

If you think you can "cure" any equine of a behavior you find unacceptable - you are very much mistaken, they are all dyed in the wool - deeply imprinted through 2 million years of DNA.
No, but there are lots of unacceptable behaviours that can be stopped for the good of both the handler and the horse. Of course, what is "unacceptable" is to some extent in the eye of the human beholder. Some people find a horse rubbing an itchy face against them completely unacceptable; others don't. There isn't a hard cut definition of rudeness or "bad behaviour", just conventions.

Horses, I believe, are quite immediate when it comes to action and reaction - they do not possess the concept of crime and punishment - if you hit one they only know that you've hit them and have no idea that you are connecting it something that happened all of thirty seconds ago! As I've said, it's in a horse's nature to strike out with a front foot - some more than others, some hardly at all but none of them "understand" that they've done wrong.
Behaviour can be modified for everyone's benefit. Limits should be taught when it comes to natural behaviours that are potentially dangerous. Of course, the consequences for behaviour - good or bad - should come immediately otherwise the horse is unlikely to know what it is being punished or rewarded for. Thirty seconds is effectively an eternity for a horse. Even three seconds is liable to be too slow, given the horse has probably moved on to its next thought by then.
 
if a horse does actually go to kick you I do think that it is a situation where well timed positive punishment is needed (possibly, would love to be wrong here).
Great if you see the kick coming in good time. Unpleasantness can be avoided altogether with enough awareness. The problem with kicking is that if you are unlucky to actually receive one, or a near miss that shocks you enough, it may be too late to punish the action effectively by the time you have gathered your thoughts. Doing so many seconds after the event is almost certainly not going to help and may make matters a worse. If you get kicked and don't respond instantly (best) or within a second or two, you should keep your counsel and reflect on what you could do better next time.
 
Plus, of course, there is a difference between a sharp word and a thump and beating it up round the head with a stick. And between behaviour that are simply undesired and dangerous behaviours.
I routinely punish coltish nibbling and mouthiness by sticking a finger or knuckle into the palate of the mouth for a few seconds, something the horse finds unpleasant enough for it to be an effective punishment. It's devoid of emotional content, the horse thinks he has inflicted it on himself rather than perceiving it as something I have done to him, and I don't need to do it more than a handful(!) of times to completely stop the behaviour for good. Much better than an angry reprimand or bopping it on the nose, I think.
 
Great if you see the kick coming in good time. Unpleasantness can be avoided altogether with enough awareness. The problem with kicking is that if you are unlucky to actually receive one, or a near miss that shocks you enough, it may be too late to punish the action effectively by the time you have gathered your thoughts. Doing so many seconds after the event is almost certainly not going to help and may make matters a worse. If you get kicked and don't respond instantly (best) or within a second or two, you should keep your counsel and reflect on what you could do better next time.

Yes. I agree. Timing is key and most of the time not good enough. I don't think I'm expressing myself very well today!
 
If you think you can "cure" any equine of a behavior you find unacceptable - you are very much mistaken, they are all dyed in the wool - deeply imprinted through 2 million years of DNA.

Most unwanted behaviour that I can and have successfully cured was caused by previous inept handling before I bought the horse. Horses only ever bite me once.

It is ridiculous to suggest that unacceptable behaviours, even ones based in DNA can't be trained out. Stallions at shows don't go round humping every in season mare!
 
I used to look after a lovely, sweet show-jumper who originally came from France. She was sharp but the kindest mare to work with but any sudden movements near her head or out the corner of her eye and she would run backwards with a terrified look in her eye. It was heart breaking, she was a real wouldn't hurt a fly mare. We had always suspected something like this had happened to her.
 
I cannot comprehend why no one stepped in to stop the rider. Everyone present is to blame - the rider for their abuse, and the rest of you for your inaction.

Just read this....Cannot(and will not) say where I was, but "stepping in and stopping that rider/trainer" would not have been "impossible," but, in so much as it wasn't my yard, nor my horse,(or maybe I'm just a coward,) I didn't move or even voice my disapproval. The trainer involved is a professional and a "winning" showjumper. I am an amateur(and now,) "older" rider. Yes I was shocked, but I trully started this thread to see if EVER this type of behavior could be excused. Perhaps, as well, after living in France(and Normandy,) now so long(going on 35years,) I now think twice before "stepping in" to anything. As an American(and certainly now with Trump,) I try to keep a low profile and leave Johnwayning to someone else...

Some of you may remember my wanting to "dehorse" an individual, some years ago, during a small collective lesson, who intentionally kicked my beloved Anglo-Arab, after several times having warned him to bug off...When he took a cheapshot, when no one was looking, I flew off my horse and had it not been for the owner/trainer of the club, stopping me physically, and throwing me out of the indoor school, I might have been arrested for what I would have done to the clown(was younger than too, lol.) Had not another rider, standing, unseen at the entrance to the school, not witnessed this individual's assault on me and my mount, and later reported this to the owner, I wouldn't have been allowed back.

This time, honestly, I didn't even think to intervene...rr
 
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I used to look after a lovely, sweet show-jumper who originally came from France. She was sharp but the kindest mare to work with but any sudden movements near her head or out the corner of her eye and she would run backwards with a terrified look in her eye. It was heart breaking, she was a real wouldn't hurt a fly mare. We had always suspected something like this had happened to her.
Almost all the horses I encountered in Malaysia when I accompanied a vet on his rounds showed some degree of headshyness. I assume it was related to standard handling practices. Wish I'd asked about this.
 
There is no justification, ever, for what you witnessed. Neither do I agree with the "punishment" concept. I am not new to this game, I have started youngsters from scratch and restarted horses who have suffered abuse and "punishment" during the starting process. If a horse does something wrong, you don't punish. They are horses, and think like horses, not people. They don't equate wrongdoing with the pain of "punishment". The voice is a powerful weapon, and if a horse does something unacceptable I growl ferociously. I have never physically punished, beaten, whipped kicked or otherwise abused a horse in fifty plus years of working with them. Shoot me down if you like, but like RR, I would, and have, stepped in to stop a horse being beaten. Its unacceptable and cannot be justified. ( dons flame proof suit and waits)
 
This time, honestly, I didn't even think to intervene...rr
It's easy to say (or imagine) one would have reacted differently in such a situation. Of course one hopes one would, but if it came down to it I doubt I could put hand on heart and swear I would. Actually, I can think of situations in my own life where to make a fuss would have been counter-productive because it would have led to me losing all opportunity to improve the lot of the horse or horses involved.

ETA: I'm not specifically referring to violent beatings around the head - I think I would find it very hard not to react to that, no matter what the knock-on effects. However, I have occasionaly stayed silent after witnessing what I consider to be abuse punishment.
 
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The voice is a powerful weapon, and if a horse does something unacceptable I growl ferociously.
Effectively, that is punishment, even if you would rather not call it that.

I know what you're referring to by "punishment" though. I just think it isn't so easy to draw the line between what is acceptable and what is abuse with a single word.

Shoot me down if you like, but like RR, I would, and have, stepped in to stop a horse being beaten. Its unacceptable and cannot be justified. ( dons flame proof suit and waits)
With respect, Seville, it's not always that simple.
 
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