Backing the young horse - NOT the MR way!!

Caol Ila said:
DIY backing has gained a lot of popularity. I remember more people using professional trainers to do it even as recently as fifteen years ago in the US. The trouble seems to be that there is a lack of education into how horses think and as a result, I see loads of confused and "misbehaving" youngsters. Horses acquire unwanted behaviours as easily as desired ones. A horse who has learned the wrong behaviours is labeled as "disrespectful" while one who has learned the right behaviours is labeled as having "good manners." But ALL of their interactions with humans are learned behaviours.
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You're absolutely right! Whether the increase in D.I.Y. backing is due to a general increase in D.I.Y. everything - or whether it's economics - or whether it is because it is FAR from uncommon to get horror stories about professional trainers, I don't know.

But I think a competent amateur who CARES about their horse and gets advice can often do a better job than a cr*p professional.

We had one classic - I think it might have been owned by an HHO member :D She sent it to a trainer who sent it back - fairly quickly - as 'unbreakable' and 'dangerous'. His claim that the horse was unbreakable was based on the fact it bucked him off - and the dangerous bit was because the horse kicked him as he was wafting earthwards!! Of course it bucked because it hadn't been properly prepared for the rider getting on - and it tried to kick him because - in the horse's hind - he was a predator! Having dislodged the predator he was NOT going to let it come back and attack his underbelly! Smart horse, dumb trainer!

Another client was going to send a horse to us and had 2nd thoughts because we were so far away (over 100 miles.) So she went to see a local (big!) yard that had a good reputation as far as she could tell. While looking around, she found about 6 horses standing in their stables in bridles, rollers and TIGHT side reins! She enquired what this was about and was told: "Oh, they're being mouthed.":( She sent her horse 100 miles! :D
 
I just saw a video on facebook this afternoon, of a horse being backed by a 'professional'. It was horrible to watch, a lot of arrogance & a lack of real knowledge or understanding.
My son has had a lovely horse to 'break' since before Christmas. My son is 16, and has a nice way with horses and a real desire to learn. I have supervised and given him specific steps, or tasks along the way and he has done a lovely job and now has a really great bond with the horse.

Its taken a longer time as we have no arena and ground has been too wet to do any work anywhere but on our concrete yard and on the lanes, also horse is a funny shape so we have spent months trying to find suitable saddle. Horse is extremely powerful and reactive and I have had my sons safety at the front of mind at every step, we've done everything twice and gone back over anything which elicited any anxiety (especially when you are backing on concrete).

I'll put a video up at some point, horse is just being ridden away really and is going round the lanes to fitten and strengthen him. Its taken 6 months of just pootling at weekends and fitting horse around exams, to get here from a horse which leaped to the back of the stable (in a normal baby way) if you patted him.

Son has enjoyed the theory behind why he has done specific things, and that's something which an amateur in particular has the liberty to do.

Everything was done in a very traditional 'English' way, the way I was taught 40 years ago at a dealers yard in the Midlands when I was used as crash test dummy. I think many NH people would be suprised about how much of that is the same in all but name to what is done by NH practitioners today. I also rode ponies for Jo Knowles and she always had a coupling from noseband to bit for the reins when backing.
 
i think siennamom makes a very important point about the bond that is formed between horse and backer, i find its an instinctive thing to know the right moment to back and comes from the connection made during preparation

i would never back a horse under six weeks prep, why rush it, you are not on time clock.

its not s new thing people buying a horse and breaking it with no experience, a well known saddler commented to me on that subject 30 years ago
 
Actually, also the trust between the horse and the person on the ground. Although son has had the main role, I have been the one holding the front end and shovelling nuts in on occcasion. Horse consequently will 'bulge' towards me and listen to me, which has been funny on occasion.

One thing we have done a lot of because we haven't an arena is riding and leading. My young gelding has been relegated to the role of sensible schoolmaster, which he is rather put out about.
 
as i prepare and back myself, that's what i was meaning, always the person on the ground is in charge and provides the continuity and security for the horse, during the preparation and i never back until the horse 'tells me he is ready' i would never have a leader or holder, that would indicate to me the horse is not ready on some level, to be honest i would feel that shows lack of confidence or prep, i only back when the horse is ready to be ridden away on his own, under his own steam and i expect it to go uneventfully because the horse is fully ready.
 
That demonstrates there is more than one way to skin a cat.

I always have a holder whether it's me backing or someone else up. I think the risk of the horse being startled is too great if they do suddenly do something unpredictable, see you out of the corner of their eye or whetever - however much you have prepared them. Its at that point when the holder can prevent the horse scaring itself more and disastrously decanting rider. I personally like bribery, think eating is also calming. I may of course just be an old worry wort.
i also do lots of walking with rider leaning over, which is hard without someone leading.
 
'if they do something unpredictable' that's it, i first accustom the horse to something higher than itself by standing on a dustbin near the saddle area, then if no response put my arms over the back and pat gently, after a few days of this i start to lean on the horse and eventually put my full weight completely on the horse by leaning over the back, but if there is any reaction i retreat to the previous level, then i sit on the horse without a saddle, all this is done in a stable for calmness and security.

the first ride outside i do with the saddle on, sitting on the horse properly, i feel this is this best position to be in should they do something unpredictable, so i can respond in balance to any unbalanced movements and counteract them, which if the horse moves on when asked should'nt really happen, then harness the forward movement and occupy their mind, lots of praise, all done in an large enclosed area.
 
I don't have any issues with DIY backing. Only with people who think it's ust like training a dog, or who think they/horse/kid can "learn together." I've done it and will do it again. When I did it, I looked at a bunch of babies. Lead them around, briefly free-lunged them in a round pen. I chose one who was curious, basically calm, and not at all bothered that he'd been removed from his herd and had to hang out with us humans for twenty minutes or so. I thought a horse like that would be the easiest to start. And he was. He was a lovely fellow to get going. I think some horses, ones who are sharp or more fearful of new things, are best when started by someone who has started lots of horses, but others are perfectly suited to first-time starters. This is an important distinction.

There does seem to be a thing going round about professional yards. I was speaking to a fellow livery the other day, who has started her own four year old. She was going on to me about how she would never ever send the horse to a professional because they "abuse" them at professional yards. I kind of nodded and smiled, as didn't want to get into a debate over it (in this same conversation, she said I ride in a "western" style, which was news to me as I thought I was doing dressage :eek:).

When I started Dante (my three year old), I'd gotten him accustomed to weird things happening around him generally and also things over his head. He was wearing a saddle, bridle, and long lining. I had also led him around while a friend balanced one of those huge exercise balls on the saddle. As stated above, he was not a spooky guy so he was totally unfazed. After the exercise ball, I figured he was ready to go. When I did get on him, I had friend lead him. Just for the first few minutes. As it was going well, she turned us loose and we had a wee walk and trot around the arena.
 
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tristar said:
'if they do something unpredictable' that's it, i first accustom the horse to something higher than itself by standing on a dustbin near the saddle area, then if no response put my arms over the back and pat gently, after a few days of this i start to lean on the horse and eventually put my full weight completely on the horse by leaning over the back, but if there is any reaction i retreat to the previous level, then i sit on the horse without a saddle, all this is done in a stable for calmness and security.

the first ride outside i do with the saddle on, sitting on the horse properly, i feel this is this best position to be in should they do something unpredictable, so i can respond in balance to any unbalanced movements and counteract them, which if the horse moves on when asked should'nt really happen, then harness the forward movement and occupy their mind, lots of praise, all done in an large enclosed area.
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We always do all of the above. BUT I have known horses who have a moment where they are unnerved by the rider either when they first move and feel the weight shift or when the rider accidentally touches them on the bum or similar, or when they see the rider behind and above them, how ever much you have stood on the mounting block and patted their bum, neck, shoulder etc. Someone on the ground and a calming pat can make a big difference I think. It's just risk management.

I think the other issue is if the youngster moves when you are about the mount for the first time, I think you are vulnerable, you risk them learning that they can move away from the block and I want to avoid them learning the wrong thing.
 
i once saw a horse being led with someone on for the first time, and it exploded 6 feet in the air the rider came off, the leader was helpless in stopping it.


that's why you need to be sure before you get on board, and it helps if the trainer on the ground is the same person that backs the horse, the connection is in place, the relationship is of confidence, the horse trusts the backer and this for me is the key to successful backing.

i think people who are over cautious or inexperienced sometimes provoke an incident by expectation of something going wrong.


year ago they used dumb jockey's fixed to a roller, or sacks of filled with something tied on both sides before backing
 
siennamum said:
We always do all of the above. BUT I have known horses who have a moment where they are unnerved by the rider either when they first move and feel the weight shift or when the rider accidentally touches them on the bum or similar, or when they see the rider behind and above them, how ever much you have stood on the mounting block and patted their bum, neck, shoulder etc. Someone on the ground and a calming pat can make a big difference I think. It's just risk management.

I think the other issue is if the youngster moves when you are about the mount for the first time, I think you are vulnerable, you risk them learning that they can move away from the block and I want to avoid them learning the wrong thing.
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I would agree with all of that and it's definitely my preference. I can sort of see the other side though as many times I've been starting horses without someone good to be on the ground and then I'd rather have no help than bad help! I've had a few really bad moments when someone trying to help does exactly the wrong thing! Of course it goes the other way - I was being a ground man for someone last year - someone I didn't know well but who had started lots of horses for racing so knew what she was about - and for some unknown reason when the horse stalled a bit instead of clicking or letting me get it moving again she reached back and walloped it!!! :eek: I guess she forgot what she was sitting on. :confused: The horse jumped on top of me, bucked her off and took weeks to be okay again!

I would also agree with CI though, having the right horse is essential. Some are very easy, most are easy enough if you use some skill and sense, some are very tricky and need careful handling. I think the problem might be though, that people who don't have the skills for a tricky one might not be able to tell (or maybe admit) they've got a tricky one.

Re pro yards, yes I've heard the same thing. Weird. That's like saying you would fix your own car better than a trained mechanic, no matter what the problem. I would say I think pros who DON'T specialise in starting horses are perhaps a worse bet than a good, patient amateur though, as they often see it as an easy, quick way to make money and just because someone jumps a lot of big fences, that doesn't necessarily give them the skills to start horses well. Apples and oranges. I broke a few for a trainer who had sent horses to the Olympics and she had some VERY odd ideas about how baby horses behaved!
 
tristar said:
year ago they used dumb jockey's fixed to a roller, or sacks of filled with something tied on both sides before backing
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Lots of people still do that. I've done it myself, at least with stuffed legs, for horses that worried about trotting with something on them - it's not usually walking that causes problems!

I know what you mean about the person on the ground not really being able to avert disaster but I think it does give a horse that's used to being lead some consistency and reassurance. When I do horses by myself I'm very sure they stop and steer with me leaning over them before I commit!
 
TarrSteps said:
Lots of people still do that. I've done it myself, at least with stuffed legs, for horses that worried about trotting with something on them - it's not usually walking that causes problems!
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Years ago when I used to help out backing horses (when I was younger, lighter and had no concept of danger!) the trainer used to tie filled haynets to the roller rings of the more sensitive horses and lunge with those on. It seemed to work well.
 
i do find that teaching a youngster to lead really well on the ground before starting to lunge is the half the battle.

also i lead youngsters out inhand, on tracks and the road, during the breaking process, the first few outings are pretty hairy, however, they rapidly gain great confidence and start to enjoy exploring, i like to do this because i want to ride them out on their own, when ready and not follow another horse, they have to face the world, my current stallion was ridden out 2 weeks after backing, on his own, he went past all the scary bits, if he had not faced up to it boldly he would have been gelded.
 
tristar said:
i do find that teaching a youngster to lead really well on the ground before starting to lunge is the half the battle.

also i lead youngsters out inhand, on tracks and the road, during the breaking process, the first few outings are pretty hairy, however, they rapidly gain great confidence and start to enjoy exploring, i like to do this because i want to ride them out on their own, when ready and not follow another horse, they have to face the world, my current stallion was ridden out 2 weeks after backing, on his own, he went past all the scary bits, if he had not faced up to it boldly he would have been gelded.
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Yes, me too. My guy never batted an eye whether or not he was out by himself or in company. He was a brave soul.

I must confess, though, I chickened out of cantering him on the trail for the first time. I recruited a brave and willing friend to do it; she used to trick-ride, a mad American thing where you hang off the front/back/sides of the horse while it pelts along at a full gallop. I led the canter on my older horse and she and Dante cruised along behind us. He did one little buck, but was otherwise fantastic.
 
agree about the cantering bit! but don't bother about cantering for some time, i find the first canter is obviously somewhat unbalanced and as you are going from a stable two time movement to a three its easier for them to buck or even shoot forward a little from the new sensation, this is where a good balanced rider going with the horse and not bearing down on the back helps i find.

i usually ask for the first canter when going slightly uphill, and ask when the horse is going forward so it falls into the canter itself from it's own momentum, to minimise the disturbance to the overall balance, so it happens naturally.
 
I haven't read all the replies but did watch some videos.

OP I really like your methods and how you handle/ back your horses :)

If I was looking or do look to re-buy in the future I'd certainly look your way. If only all sellers were like you!
 
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