Bad Benjamin!!!!!!

Queenbee

Queenbee

Well-Known Member
Joined
20 August 2007
Messages
12,020
Location
Cumbria
Visit site
So, a few weeks ago there was a thread on here asking 'do you have a set routine at the yard'. Well, I do, I won't bore you with the specifics, but it ends with me bringing Benjamin in from the field, walking straight into his stable, giving him feed and then *should* I need to groom/change rugs etc, I do. Now, I know that there are many people who absolutely would not be faffing around the horse while it eats, but he is so calm, not at all stressy or stroppy, totally focused on his nom noms and you can do anything, so this has been his routine forever.

Well, didn't I feel flipping awful this evening!!!! Yesterday morning I went up to watch someone ride my friends horse, I mucked out, set up for the evening and my friend said she would bring him in later for me as I've been building a website for a friend, so could do with the break. This is all fine, no need to be worried as v has done this for me a number of times before, and I for her. In the past words like 'good as gold' and 'quiet as a lamb' have tripped out of her mouth when describing my beastie.

So, since it was fabulous sunshine, and Ben has yet to have a clip, I whipped off his rug and went on my merry way. Today, my yo told me all had not gone swimmingly. When bringing her own horse in, V has her own routine, she ties M up, changes rugs and then pops into stable, unless it's raining, which it wasn't last night. So, she goes to the field to bring in the 'good as gold, quiet little lamb' of mine. She then ties him up outside his stable to rug him up and what follows then is a veritable poo storm!!!! Ben, huuuuuuugely indignant at being made to wait, and having a change to his routine decides to throw one almighty strop (think baby stomping its feet and throwing itself on the floor). V absolutely could not get his rug on him, everytime she went to do his leg straps up be tried to 'double barrel' her in my YO's words.

YO said she saw this all through the window, came out and growled at him to 'pack it in and stand up!!!' Which he did, but then I'm shocked and angry at him and absolutely mortified that he did this to V. In the summer he's fine with being tied outside and messed around with, but in the winter his routine is pretty rigid. To be honest no one, not even YO or I who handle him daily would have predicted this meltdown he had, and only we would have felt comfortable telling him off, because we know that's all it takes and he knows he can't push us, he has tried and learnt better with us both. I'm so angry at him, he has never ever done this before, he had a drug on at six months old, because even though he didn't need on I was damned if I was ever going to have him unhappy about being rugged. He even let me whip it off in the field, he didn't even have a headcollar on... I'm seriously tempted to send him for glue!

So, I will be messing up his routine, if he wants to try to maim my friends then he will damn well have a shock, every day that it is not raining when he comes in he is going to be tied up and have his rug whipped off and on until he is bored titless and boy oh boy, I'm gonna have me a crop and I hope to god he tries that behaviour with me, because he will bleeding regret it then!!! I am also going to grovel forgiveness to V as soon as I see her on behalf of my very very bad beastie!

Finally, because I am going to share a link to this thread to V, I just have to say: V, I'm mortified, I am sooooo sorry for his behaviour, even though he has never ever done anything like this before I feel simply awful that you were doing me a favour and he could have hurt you.

If you ask me too I will turn him into a pritt stick. :)

Xxxx
 
Queenbee said:
So, I will be messing up his routine, if he wants to try to maim my friends then he will damn well have a shock, every day that it is not raining when he comes in he is going to be tied up and have his rug whipped off and on until he is bored titless and boy oh boy, I'm gonna have me a crop and I hope to god he tries that behaviour with me, because he will bleeding regret it then!!! Xxxx
Click to expand...

Rather than beat him into submission, afterall, it's not his fault you stuck to a routine so rigidly you've made him inflexible, why don't you train the behaviour you want on a gradual basis so neither of you has to get upset or angry?
 
Blurr said:
Rather than beat him into submission, afterall, it's not his fault you stuck to a routine so rigidly you've made him inflexible, why don't you train the behaviour you want on a gradual basis so neither of you has to get upset or angry?
Click to expand...

Definitely this! It's not his fault - it's yours so don't beat him into submission.
 
I don't think Queenbee is really going to beat him into submission.
If Cookie or Ned behaved in that manner, I'd want a whip - just in case, even if I didn't really intend to use it!

Oh dear, it's never fun when they mess about for other people at the slightest change in routine. My friend came to ride Ned once and since I was there to open the gate, I suggested she get on in the field where it's less muddy. He threw such a paddy, I didn't think she'd be able to get on! A break in routine can be hard, when he messed about with my friend, I let her hold Cookie while I got on and off and on and off and on and off etc etc...so I think your "repeat until bored" is a good idea.
 
sandy3924 said:
Definitely this! It's not his fault - it's yours so don't beat him into submission.
Click to expand...

I think QB is paraphrasing! Ben is like her little boy! She's just a bit frustrated that he behaved this way. Tbh, a lot of people fall into a routine without having planned it due to time or the way things are laid out. :)

Most folk end up in a routine in winter. Time constraints shape what you do sometimes and you do things in a certain way so you remember everything.

I don't have a routine at all and tbh I forget things like the water tap being left on, the kickbolt undone... And the horse just has to accept whatever I do to her in whatever order is convenient for me that day. Sometimes that means standing licking the calves while I have a long chinwag to another livery.

Both have their pros and cons but lets not blame the OP, it's just one of those things! Ben will learn that his routine needs to have a little variety so that he is safe to handle in future, QB will make sure of that and I'm sure she will do it in her usual loving way.
 
Ah, don't worry, it's not the first time QB has posted in a dramatic manner and then back pedalled furiously when questioned on it, she wouldn't do anything out of order.

The thing is QB he's unlikely to behave like that for you. In your position I'd be asking your friend to repeat the experience but being as tough as you would be, with you on hand to step in if he steps too far out of line. I think mixing up his routine would probably be a good idea.
 
tallyho! said:
I think QB is paraphrasing! Ben is like her little boy! She's just a bit frustrated that he behaved this way. Tbh, a lot of people fall into a routine without having planned it due to time or the way things are laid out. :)

Most folk end up in a routine in winter. Time constraints shape what you do sometimes and you do things in a certain way so you remember everything.

I don't have a routine at all and tbh I forget things like the water tap being left on, the kickbolt undone... And the horse just has to accept whatever I do to her in whatever order is convenient for me that day. Sometimes that means standing licking the calves while I have a long chinwag to another livery.

Both have their pros and cons but lets not blame the OP, it's just one of those things! Ben will learn that his routine needs to have a little variety so that he is safe to handle in future, QB will make sure of that and I'm sure she will do it in her usual loving way.
Click to expand...

jemima*askin said:
Ah, don't worry, it's not the first time QB has posted in a dramatic manner and then back pedalled furiously when questioned on it, she wouldn't do anything out of order.

The thing is QB he's unlikely to behave like that for you. In your position I'd be asking your friend to repeat the experience but being as tough as you would be, with you on hand to step in if he steps too far out of line. I think mixing up his routine would probably be a good idea.
Click to expand...


Lol! Yes, I think I will be leaving the barbed wire whip in the cupboard for a while ;) and yes, absolutely, Ben is my baby and I love him very much, however, regardless of love, I absolutely will not ever stand for such an attitude problem and have no problem having a tantrum of my own in order to put him back in his box and let him know what's what. Unfortunately, I completely agree with Jemma, I think much of this was boundary testing and I doubt that he'd consider acting up for me but I kind of wish he would so he could learn that it is NOT acceptable in the slightest. Blurr, the fact is he is NOT inflexible, he has been in a mixed routine before, just because he isn't now is no excuse, he may only be four and a half and my baby, but I make no excuses for him, he absolutely knows this is not on, he does know how he should behave and he does know better, of this I am certain. This was temper tantrums boundary testing with a new person and strops, pure and and simple. I don't hold with 'the softly, softly build it up gradually approach, this is not a horse who is completely wild, prone to overreacting to stimulus and we are not working with the flight mechanism here. Gradual exposure is absolutely not appropriate and. in my opinion can give mixd/confused messages. With Ben your responses need to be projected with a loud speaker, asking nicely and meekly will do sod all... He ignores it. If I thought beating the hell out of him would serve any purpose I would consider it, but to be fair... He kinda ignores the whip too, especially if you use it to the extent it becomes like background noise, but yes, if my giving him a damn good double whack if he tries to double barrel me stops his behaviour I will damn well do that, it well be that your softly softly approach would work over time, but if my horse kicks out in temper, he does not deserve softly softly, and I know for sure my way will put paid to his behaviour once and for all. I adore my horse, I would be mortified if he hurt anyone, or if he became feared by others. Dealing with him has always been the same, say it loud and very clear, this is just what he needs, it doesn't always mean carry a whip and give him a clout, but it doesn't exclude him being given a damn good clout if he kicks out, and yes he will be under no illusions... Kicking is wrong, and it has repercussions. and the sooner this is dealt with the better, it may never happen again, but if it does the sooner it is stopped the less likely it is to become an ingrained habitual behaviour.

If there is something I need to work on, that is a behaviour that is linked to fear, or lack of understanding on his behalf that is not dangerous, that he doesn't know any better about, I'm happy to take my time with dealing with this. But dealing with a strop, bad manners, a temper or a danger... Completely different approach needed in my opinion, especially with Ben, who is like a baby rhino, thick skinned and needs any point spelled out in the appropriate manner for that situation.
 
jemima*askin said:
Ah, don't worry, it's not the first time QB has posted in a dramatic manner and then back pedalled furiously when questioned on it, she wouldn't do anything out of order.

The thing is QB he's unlikely to behave like that for you. In your position I'd be asking your friend to repeat the experience but being as tough as you would be, with you on hand to step in if he steps too far out of line. I think mixing up his routine would probably be a good idea.
Click to expand...

I may well ask a friend to come up and run through it with him, but I'm reluctant to ask v to, I don't want to put her in that position again until I'm happy it's sorted. She lost her confidence a number of years ago after a car accident and it impacted on her confidence with horses, she has worked incredibly hard to build this up over the last year, I won't put her in a position where he could dent this. I have a couple of friends who wouldn't care if he faffed like that, and would feel comfortable giving him a stern what for, if he gave them any nonsense, they would be happy to come out and go through the motions with him.
 
Queenbee said:
He kinda ignores the whip too, especially if you use it to the extent it becomes like background noise, ,
Click to expand...

Good grief. You've desensitised him to the whip? And this is someone you love?

What I was suggesting to you (and anyone else reading) was that by good management, neither of you need get in a temper and he'd not feel the need to kick and you'd not feel the need to retaliate. Whips are for cues, not punishment IMO. Thank good ness they suffer silently.

There's teaching, and there's teaching a lesson and what you're suggesting is the latter.
 
I remember at college a lot of horses worked out which students were the softly softly kind and would proceed to kick, bite, pulle faces, etc. It's not good for a horse to learn it can control people, they are big animals. It's not Bens fault that his routine has changed but QB is right it is not an excuse for him to act like a menace.
 
Also, it is very easy to discipline a horse without losing temper, I wouldn't assume QB has beat her horse senseless in a fit of rage.
 
If mine double barrelled me she would get a short sharp shock at the time it happened-it would not be temper it would be a consequence, if the short sharp shock had not happened at the first paddy I WOULD recreate the situation and be ready to respond
 
Goodness me, willful misinterpretation much? No I have not stood with or sat on my horse tap, tap, tapping him with the whip to desensitise him. I have never done that, deliberately or inadvertently, never even considered that. From day one, a little flick of the whip did absolutely nothing, you could sit there for hours in theory tapping and he would have ignored it. One or two short sharp taps and he wakes up. Personally I've always been an advocate of do it once and clear, instead of faffing around tap tap tapping getting no where fast and ultimately producing a horse that IS DESENSITISED to a whip.

Further more, I am angry, that Ben has done this. I found out last night before I got him in, when I got him in, he was greeted at the field with a cuddle and a scratch. Headcollar on, walked in. More cuddle and scratches and a kiss on the nose when I left... Hardly letting my anger shine through there am I? So do not presume to tell me I am reacting with anger, that is a weakness I do not posess and certainly something I abhor. He absolutely will be reprimanded if he does anything like this with me, but not because I am angry, but because it is an appropriate response to a horse who is behaving in such a manner.

I agree, there is teaching, and there is teaching him a lesson, and should he kick out, and should I hit him, yes he would be learning a lesson... Thou shalt not kick humans. He has four years experience of being rugged, of he allows his legs to be clipped and his tail pulled without batting an eye, you can wash and brush anywhere between his legs... He knows better, so he doesn't need to be taught that leg straps are ok... He flipping knows this already. I am quite accomplished at reading a horse, assessing why it is behaving as it is and responding in the appropriate manner for the horse, it's behaviour and the situation.

If I had started a thread, saying something along the lines of, 'my horse kicked out when doing the leg straps, how would you handle this?' You can be damn sure yours would be the view in the minority, most people would say a bloody good telling off, this is unacceptable behaviour, no matter what the reason or the circumstances. I'm sure you can do a search and find such threads, I have seen many on here.
 
ridefast said:
Also, it is very easy to discipline a horse without losing temper, .
Click to expand...

Totally agree, it is possible to discipline a horse without losing your temper, and also without violence or physical punishment whether delivered in a rage or with calm deliberation and detachment.
 
I'm sorry blurr, I mean no personal offence but I can't abide people who try to softly softly guide a horse to 'please not kick or strike mummy cause it's not very nice'. Kicking and striking is unacceptable, what ever the reason. I'm not a horse beater, I do guide and teach my horses, but I have no issues with telling them either if their behaviour is kicking or striking. As I said, appropriate response for appropriate situation. I do not believe softly softly is appropriate for a kick out.
 
Quote from QB "If I had started a thread, saying something along the lines of, 'my horse kicked out when doing the leg straps, how would you handle this?' most people would say a bloody good telling off, this is unacceptable behaviour, no matter what the reason or the circumstances."

Since your so good at reading your horse, you'll know very well his objection was nothing to do with a rug he's well used to having put on and taken off. It was his frustration at having his routine changed. So yes, I agree, my answer would have been in the minority because I'd not have said anything about the rug, as that wasn't his issue.
 
And typically, anyone who doesn't find it acceptable to take a stick to a horse to teach it a lesson must be some namby pamby softly softly bunny hugging idiot who whispers sweet nothings in diddums ear in the hope he'll behave. Well some people might do that, but I for one don't think it would be very effective. It is possible to teach manners without violence and violence is what you're advocating.
 
It was his frustration at being made to wait, but yes, that is in essence a change to his routine. However, at six months old, he was out 24/7, at 18 months, he moved to my oh's, and had the use of stables. He was in as and when. I then moved him to a friends yard so I could start working with him in a school etc. he had more of a routine, in at night out at day, out 24/7 in summer. He then moved to a yard down the rd and for six weeks had only 2 hrs turnout a day, as he was keeping my mare company on box rest. He went away to be backed then to a new yard with better facilities has been at this yard for two winters now. Summer, he is out at night, in at day, winter in at night, out at day. He is tied outside daily in the summer. He is no stranger to changes in routine. This is a strop, pure and simple. It is unacceptable for a horse to try and exert his will on a human, change in winter routine or not. As I said, bad behaviour is not excusable, whatever the reason for it. I make no allowances for him kicking out because of a change to routine. He DOES know better, behaviour akin to a child's tantrum is abhorrent. I doubt he'd be asked nicely to stop kicking by another horse, rather they would boot the hell out of him, and a hell of a lot harder than a smack with a crop and a growl with the voice!
 
Queenbee said:
I'm sorry blurr, I mean no personal offence but I can't abide people who try to softly softly guide a horse to 'please not kick or strike mummy cause it's not very nice'. Kicking and striking is unacceptable, what ever the reason. I'm not a horse beater, I do guide and teach my horses, but I have no issues with telling them either if their behaviour is kicking or striking. As I said, appropriate response for appropriate situation. I do not believe softly softly is appropriate for a kick out.
Click to expand...

I have to agree. Even as weanlings you have to step in quickly. Biting, barging and threatening to kick are all absolute no-no's in my book and if a horse is to be used as a domesticated pleasure animal then as the owners, we have to teach them how to behave appropriately and they learn amazingly quickly if its done in a way they understand. I know softly softly doesn't work with a weanling... never mind a two year old! Firm doesn't mean beating a horse senseless. A firm hand is a caring hand IMO.
 
Well, a swift update as I need to eat dinner, I changed things up today, instead of leaving him in the field until everything else was done, the first thing I did was bought him in and tied him up, and whipped off the rug. I then did all my chores left his dinner in the feed room and went to pop the rug on. He tried to be a bit bargy when I did the front fixing and got a growl. In response to a growl he tried his strike foot stamp so got a swift crack from a whip on his leg and a growl. He then stood up for the rest of the rugging. Not a peep out of him for the back end. He then got popped back in the stable with his feed. We will do this for a few more days then I'm going to up the anti by putting his feed in his stable, so he can see me do this before I rug him up. All in all not very bad at all but then this is with me, not someone newish. Poor v, yo said he literally had her pinned to the wall. :(
 
Blurr said:
Totally agree, it is possible to discipline a horse without losing your temper, and also without violence or physical punishment whether delivered in a rage or with calm deliberation and detachment.
Click to expand...

I wish you the sincerest good wishes for all your future endeavours in the world of horses. "Violence" is very much favoured by horses; they resort to it regularly.
 
Cortez said:
I wish you the sincerest good wishes for all your future endeavours in the world of horses. "Violence" is very much favoured by horses; they resort to it regularly.
Click to expand...

Ah Cortez, that is so true! I am not a horse beater either but my youngster is a rising 3 brick outhouse and if he needs a reminder of his manners then so be it. One swift reminder is all that is needed and it's back to niceness on both sides,
 
Cortez said:
I wish you the sincerest good wishes for all your future endeavours in the world of horses. "Violence" is very much favoured by horses; they resort to it regularly.
Click to expand...

Some things that go on in our herd should have a warning that reads "Not for the faint hearted!".
 
Cortez said:
I wish you the sincerest good wishes for all your future endeavours in the world of horses. "Violence" is very much favoured by horses; they resort to it regularly.
Click to expand...

Sincerest thanks for your good wishes, unexpected yet very kind :).

Herds are built around affiliative behaviours rather than agonistic, it's what keeps them together and staying together keeps them safe. Herd members avoid bullies, choosing instead to spend time with friends and take their lead from a trusted member of the group, often referred to as the passive leader. Not passive as in not doing anything but elected rather than imposing their will. Given a choice, they're peaceable animals but our intervention, imposing our choice of friends on them, restricting their movement and feeding discrete meals does tend to mess things up for them, which is perhaps why you see more agonistic behaviours. Despite this, I see no reason to behave like the horse that they would, given the option, prefer to avoid. In fact, I prefer not to behave like or be thought of as a horse by them, because I'm human. I use my humanity, and supposedly being the more intelligent of the species learn how to get the behaviours I want without cracking the whip. Pretty sure I'm not the only one.
 
Wooo, someone swallowed a dictionary this morning! ;)

Sorry, just couldn't resist, should really learn to bite my tongue, perhaps I shall put that on my 'to do list' right after 'address anger issues'
 
Actually yes, most leaders are passive, their second in command often is not. In my old herd of 8, my mare was passive for the most part, but the second in command did the bouncer work. Babies step out of line and test boundaries, it's inherent to their nature, bosses put them firmly back in their place. I have often witnessed this in a herd environment, babies and newcomers who do not know the dynamics are disciplined. As I said, ebony was a passive leader, but it was not beyond her to give a horse both barrels if it was required of her to protect the dynamics of her herd. I have seen this, one example: my friends horse, new to the herd he was picking on the little welsh a, she and saffie the shire booted him once, one at the chest, one at the bum. Recently gelded or not, this horse never attacked the welsh again, moreover he became very close field mates with it.

And I can not believe you are intimating that we cause horses to be dominant and discipline others in their herd, whilst they do opt to be passive, they stand no messing and they absolutely will kick and drive a horse away if it misbehaves. I've often thought that depriving a horse of company by driving it away for 'as long as it takes it to get the message' is far more traumatic than one quick telling off.
 
Last edited:
I haven't read the whole thread so apologies if I am way off the mark but if I read your original post correctly he was standing still outside unrugged? Could he have got a bit cold? My boy is normally as good as gold but really does play up if he gets cold.
 
He was up rugged, but it was sunny, he is also a mammoth in the winter, he was literally bought in, tied up, rug grabbed and then strop all mighty x. I very much doubt he was cold, it was pretty mild. It was most definitely a temper tantrum at being made to wait.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top