Bad Benjamin!!!!!!

TB... His manners with me are not a problem, his manners with yo and her staff are not a problem. His manners with v have never been a problem until the other day, every horse tests boundaries with a new person not straight away but at some point. so regardless of me sorting this out with v, he will test the next new person. I will absolutely not accept him testing anyone for WHATEVER reason in this manner, but just how can one sort out manners for a well behaved horse (on a day to day basis) that only kick in when the people he knows and behaves for are not around? A few weeks ago it was lashing with rain, for the first time he tried to keep walking in while I shut the gate. Consequently it took him ten minutes to make it into his stable when normally it's thirty seconds, I walked up and down the yard, stopping and asking him to back up, asking for him to stand until I chose he could walk on. Not once did he strop, or even question me, he knew he had to be patient and respond as I wanted, did I have a crop? No, I doubt I've picked one up until yesterday for about four months. It was all done off voice. So please do not assume that I do not work on my horses manners and respond the second there is any hint of a lack in them. He would not have behaved this way with v if yo or I were there, neither could anyone have forseen that he would behave that way, as a baby he has foot stomped with his front legs, but never ever has he struck out and cow kicked.
 
dogatemysalad said:
Op's initial post was a little unfair on the horse. Surely his behaviour was a gap in his training combined with a handler unable to diffuse the situation before it escalated.
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Whist I understand what you are saying, it's hard to establish where exactly the gap is, numerous people have handled him, rugged him, ridden him groomed him, he is no stranger to changes in routine, being rugged, being handled, standing outside tied up. just because he does have a winter routine he has never behaved in this manner to any change before. The only thing I can see is that whist she did verbally tell him off with a good growl, perhaps he could tell she wasn't so confident, he is not her horse after all. Again, something that I absolutely do not blame her for, I do not condone this kind of behaviour, I expect Ben to behave around anyone and have always worked hard to ensure this and impress upon him this is the rule. In the summer my friends eleven year old daughter bought him in from the field. And again, the question is, if he will not exhibit this behaviour with me around, how do I stop him doing it, when even the slightest thing from him is corrected by me there and then, I can't exactly do this if I'm not there when he tests someone, and it's only then that he does. I can't ask her to do it, that would be an obvious choice as it was her he tested, but I absolutely will not risk damaging the confidence she has worked so hard to build, and besides, he will still test the next new person I some way, it is after all a horses nature to in some way test their boundaries.
 
Queenbee said:
Well, a swift update as I need to eat dinner, I changed things up today, instead of leaving him in the field until everything else was done, the first thing I did was bought him in and tied him up, and whipped off the rug. I then did all my chores left his dinner in the feed room and went to pop the rug on. He tried to be a bit bargy when I did the front fixing and got a growl. In response to a growl he tried his strike foot stamp so got a swift crack from a whip on his leg and a growl. He then stood up for the rest of the rugging. Not a peep out of him for the back end. He then got popped back in the stable with his feed. We will do this for a few more days then I'm going to up the anti by putting his feed in his stable, so he can see me do this before I rug him up. All in all not very bad at all but then this is with me, not someone newish. Poor v, yo said he literally had her pinned to the wall. :(
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You seem to be a bit confused about his behaviour. From this post, and your recent one about the gate, he's not just 'testing boundaries with a new person' (your friend v). Is there any chance this has something to do with your training methods and/or a gap in his education? Could it be your fault at all? Just asking, don't expect a response.

You imply he's not a sensitive horse, I've not met one yet that couldn't feel a fly land.
 
Not at all confused, I believe his foot stomp/strike at me, was simply because he had got away with stropping the day before, surely that is obvious. If behavior isn't rectified straight away, the horse will and does try it again. Give an inch and they take a mile and all that.

He is not a sensitive horse, im absolutely certain that as in the words of pat parelli a horse can feel a fly land on his skin, I'm sure he can, despite his hugely thick coat. However, whether or not the horse chooses to respond to this is entirely down to the nature of the individual horse. He is thick skinned and not sensitive, in the sense that his attitude is thick skinned, I was not referring to his level of skin thickness or sensitivity, perhaps I should have made that clear.
 
I agree you should have zero tolerance, but whips are not for punishment. You can make him well aware of the error of his ways without that .
Horses aren't born knowing the rules, he's relatively young isn't he ?
A hungry horse in winter with his tea in the offing, yeah, I'd be aware it could go wrong if I started faffing .
If he'd meant it he'd have made contact first time.
You need to take it as a serious warning and you are which is great.
I'm sure he's mentally robust enough to cope with you're chosen methods however much they concern me.
Good luck.
 
I totally agree, mentally he is robust enough, it's not how I would ever have responded with my mare because with her it would have had devastating effect, furthermore, one telling off verbally would have been all it would take. In addition, one verbal telling off straight away is all it would normally have taken Ben. With regards to him being a hungry horse, he has average amounts of grass in his field and ad lib hay, he does not come in hungry. He does like his creature comforts, he is always standing and waiting at the gate, but that is him not hunger... He's in no shortage of food during the day or the night. His tea is merely a token guesture.

He is relatively young. Four and a half last November. But I've owned him for two months over four years. From day one of owning him he started to learn, whilst I agree he still has learning experiences to go, general behaviour is not one of them. No corners have ever been skipped with this horse, it's not my style. If ten repetitions of a rule is what's needed, I do 20, not ten and certainly not five. It has always been my style to do more than is needed not less. That is why I am entirely convinced he knew better and was deliberately testing.
 
teabiscuit said:
I agree you should have zero tolerance, but whips are not for punishment. You can make him well aware of the error of his ways without that .
Horses aren't born knowing the rules, he's relatively young isn't he ?
A hungry horse in winter with his tea in the offing, yeah, I'd be aware it could go wrong if I started faffing .
If he'd meant it he'd have made contact first time.
You need to take it as a serious warning and you are which is great.
I'm sure he's mentally robust enough to cope with you're chosen methods however much they concern me.
Good luck.
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I really do want to learn. Was the OP's horse hungry, or just after his tea like any other horse? There does seem to be some advice without offering a solution. I want to know how you tell the horse the error of his ways under exactly this kind of situation. Not picking on you by the way but this horse might have been brought in out of routine for a flu injection and the vet might have been on the receiving end of possibly a kick to the head.

Sorry OP, don't mean to say your horse would do this but I'm getting frustrated with the advice and no solution to the immediate problem at hand scenario.
 
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Cortez said:
I can feel a fly land; doesn't mean I'm "sensitive" (and I'm not...).
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Lol, this exactly. When I started to school Ben, he simply didn't react to a squeeze or the flick of a schooling whip on his behind... He was very sluggish. I wore humane spurs (something I do not do). One use of these and he will wake up, ten flicks of a whip or kick kick kick with the heel and he would have just become a dulled horse, now if I school I do not need spurs as he listens to the cue.

doriangrey said:
I really do want to learn. Was the OP's horse hungry, or just after his tea like any other horse? There does seem to be some advice without offering a solution. I want to know how you tell the horse the error of his ways under exactly this kind of situation. Not picking on you by the way but this horse might have been brought in out of routine for a flu injection and the vet might have been on the receiving end of possibly a kick to the head.

Sorry OP, don't mean to say your horse would do this but I'm getting frustrated with the advice and no solution to the immediate problem at hand scenario.
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DG you voiced my sentiments exactly, no offence taken. It's my personal opinion with regards to the hunger that because he has adlib forage it was just wanting to get to dinner like any other horse, and not perceived actual hunger or starvation as some have intimated.
 
How would I know how I'd deal with it?
I don't know the horse, for goodness sake I'd be totally irresponsible to offer advice over the Internet when I have no idea of the persons ability, the situation etc.
And let's face it there seems to be a great unwillingness to consider other ideas.
And How do you know the horse isn't hungry? Grass has no value this time of year.
If my horse was being seen to by a vet I'd prepare a lot better than just getting him in from the field.
 
Blurr said:
You seem to be a bit confused about his behaviour. From this post, and your recent one about the gate, he's not just 'testing boundaries with a new person' (your friend v). Is there any chance this has something to do with your training methods and/or a gap in his education? Could it be your fault at all? Just asking, don't expect a response.

You imply he's not a sensitive horse, I've not met one yet that couldn't feel a fly land.
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Sorry blurr, also having just re read this, he came through the gate and for the first time in probably six month did not turn his quarters but tried to keep walking. As a baby, this is perfectly acceptable. One reminder of the rules in six months in a four and a half year old, Hardly shocking.
 
teabiscuit said:
How would I know how I'd deal with it?
I don't know the horse, for goodness sake I'd be totally irresponsible to offer advice over the Internet when I have no idea of the persons ability, the situation etc.
And let's face it there seems to be a great unwillingness to consider other ideas.
And How do you know the horse isn't hungry? Grass has no value this time of year.
If my horse was being seen to by a vet I'd prepare a lot better than just getting him in from the field.
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My point exactly, you and I both agree, every horse is an individual and should be treated as such. As you say, anyone who deigns to give advice on how to handle a horse whose character they do not know is irresponsible.

Grass has no value, totally true, but hay does. It is cut in the summer. Hence has nutritional value, he has an all you can eat buffet in his field, there is always some left in his Hayhutch. That is how I know he isn't hungry.


You are by the looks of it insinuating that I do not prepare my horse in any way. Funnily enough, he's been fine with the person who clips him, fine with the four vets visits he has had, fine with the dentist every six months, fine with the massage therapist and fine with the farrier two to three times a year (he is self trimming bf) so one can assume he is well prepared for such visits by me, as he is and always has been.

There is not a great unwillingness to consider other ideas, there are not actually any ideas for the scenario that have been presented that would suit his temperament and the scenario. Infact, ideas and suggestions have been very thin on the ground although judgements have been prolific. I do not hold with trying to solve such behavior as this over numerous lessons. Other behavior yes, but violent behavior that could result in harm to a handler, absolutely not. If I can resolve it swiftly, I have no problem with doing so, and would rather that. As I have said, one very clear and strong black and white lesson, is better than numerous lessons in this case.
 
I'm sorry, I can't cope with your attitude, you seem to be very closed up.
I'm not insinuating any such thing.
However, I was always under the impression that everyone knew that whips are not for punishment .
 
Queenbee said:
If ten repetitions of a rule is what's needed, I do 20, not ten and certainly not five. It has always been my style to do more than is needed not less.
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But sometimes, less, is more. For instance, your example of getting Ben to walk,back up etc for 10 minutes in lashing rain because he walked on past the gate. Ok, that is fine, but there is another way. Get the job done by just seemingly doing very little, no battles, no hammering the point home by showing who's boss. A horse not waiting at the gate on one particular day can be corrected by just stopping, turning it around while you shut the gate and continuing on to the yard. No big deal. The horse waits and it's behaviour is corrected without a big issue. If it's something that has happened a fewl times before, I'd preempt it by turning the horse into the turn before he has chance to think about walking straight on.
 
teabiscuit said:
How would I know how I'd deal with it?
I don't know the horse, for goodness sake I'd be totally irresponsible to offer advice over the Internet when I have no idea of the persons ability, the situation etc.
And let's face it there seems to be a great unwillingness to consider other ideas.
And How do you know the horse isn't hungry? Grass has no value this time of year.
If my horse was being seen to by a vet I'd prepare a lot better than just getting him in from the field.
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It seems that there is a lot of advice though, without a particular solution to the problem at hand. That is what I find particularly galling. It is all well and good to say that the behaviour is preventative but there may always be situations that one is presented with out of one's control. How then is that dealt with in that moment in time? Human vs Horse. I've had them, dealt with them, and still dealing with them (new youngster) and non violent believe it or not. As to the vet analogy - why would you not bring the horse from the field anyway?
 
If my horse stops at a jump, I do not hit it, if my horse doesn't want to load I do not hit it. If my horse Ben or any horse try's to kick me, it will get a slap with my hand or a hit with the crop! I don't particularly care that you judge me for that. I'm not closed up, you say my horse, that eats hay cut in the summer all day is hungry, you need a reality check if you think my arguing with this is being closed up. As do you if you can not see that no real solutions to how to stop this behaviour when I'm not present have been presented. Behaviour exhibited with one person once in four and a half years and I'm being wilfully ignorant and closed up. Fine, I can deal with that because for the most part he's been a good boy. Yes there have been times when I've given him a smack with a crop, but I always will try repetition and voice first unless it is dangerous behaviour and in fact, when it's dangerous behaviour I will reprimand first and once with voice, and second with a whip if my voice command is ignored.
 
dogatemysalad said:
But sometimes, less, is more. For instance, your example of getting Ben to walk,back up etc for 10 minutes in lashing rain because he walked on past the gate. Ok, that is fine, but there is another way. Get the job done by just seemingly doing very little, no battles, no hammering the point home by showing who's boss. A horse not waiting at the gate on one particular day can be corrected by just stopping, turning it around while you shut the gate and continuing on to the yard. No big deal. The horse waits and it's behaviour is corrected without a big issue. If it's something that has happened a fewl times before, I'd preempt it by turning the horse into the turn before he has chance to think about walking straight on.
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Oh I absolutely agree, and sometimes I would rather just ignore a behaviour, for example in the spring he is prone to jogging and whinnying on hacks so I ignore this and this is the most effective method to making him stop in this scenario it's knowing when (for want of a better word) to pick your battles, and what response is appropriate for that horse in the given situation. For something like the hacking, ignorance is the best response to make him forget his spring jinx, for something like the gate incident, repetition is the best way for him, for violent kicks (aimed at human or not) a growl, then a hit with a crop if repeated. Christ, I hardly go in there with a sledgehammer and bash their brains out for fun. ;)
 
From your previous posts it seems you do know the exercises that could help your horse stand quietly, but prefer to recreate the situation and use punishment. Crack on.
 
Blurr said:
From your previous posts it seems you do know the exercises that could help your horse stand quietly, but prefer to recreate the situation and use punishment. Crack on.
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Get over yourself and stop being such a sanctimonious twit.

QB you know your horse and the consequences of both barrels. I trust you will sort it he is your responsibility. Hopefully there will be no more incidents and normal service will resume :)
 
Blurr said:
From your previous posts it seems you do know the exercises that could help your horse stand quietly, but prefer to recreate the situation and use punishment. Crack on.
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As I said, willful misinterpretation! No, I unlike you have a variety of tools in my kit, I deliver a tailor made response, using whatever method is most effective for the individual horse and situation (god it sounds like there is an echo in here!) these responses include, using a crop, voice/an agressive growl, repetition, passive ignorance of behaviour, clicker training.... Unlike some people I do not use a blinkered and restricted approach.
Christmas Kia said:
Get over yourself and stop being such a sanctimonious twit.

QB you know your horse and the consequences of both barrels. I trust you will sort it he is your responsibility. Hopefully there will be no more incidents and normal service will resume :)
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Thank ye, very much... On this note, I'm toddling off to Milan now so my ned can get a violence free few days :)
 
Queenbee said:
As I said, willful misinterpretation! No, I unlike you have a variety of tools in my kit, I deliver a tailor made response, using whatever method is most effective for the individual horse and situation (god it sounds like there is an echo in here!) these responses include, using a crop, voice/an agressive growl, repetition, passive ignorance of behaviour, clicker training.... Unlike some people I do not use a blinkered and restricted approach.



Thank ye, very much... On this note, I'm toddling off to Milan now so my ned can get a violence free few days :)
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Wilful misrepresentation yourself! Like you I use a variety of techniques and methods. Unlike you, punishment isn't one of them. Have fun in Milan :)
 
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lol!

Just sat here waiting for the others to arrive so we can jet off for hols. :). See you all on here for round two next week ;)
 
Blurr said:
Wilful misrepresentation yourself! Like you I use a variety of techniques and methods. Unlike you, punishment isn't one of them. Have fun in Milan :)
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Blurr I'm really sorry but your attitude is driving me insane - all you say is you would not use violence so what would you use in this situation? Don't say anything about preparation and prior training - it is quite clear that it has been done. If YOU were changing a well-trained and usually impeccably behaved horse's rug and that horse kicked out at you/threw a temper tantrum etc, what would YOU do. Would you ignore it?
I have no problem with criticism but I hate non constructive criticism and there has only been one critical post on this thread that actually offered a solution to the problem. You can't just say "I would have trained him like this" because even the best trained horse in the world will occasionally throw a strop. What matters is how you immediately deal with a horse that tries to double barrel its handler.

Queenbee, sorry this thread has been so ridiculous. It sounds to me like you did the right thing, although as always I would love to hear of another solution. Have a lovely time in Milan.
 
We are going up to London tonight and flying out tomorrow am, it's only marginally warmer but I will post from there some piccy for you all x
 
Lol, I gave him a hammering, whoops a *hug* earlier on. Just sat here screaming down the phone as we haven't been sent our transfer and hotel booking details!!!!!!!!!!
 
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