Bad Benjamin!!!!!!

Blurr said:
Sincerest thanks for your good wishes, unexpected yet very kind :).

Herds are built around affiliative behaviours rather than agonistic, it's what keeps them together and staying together keeps them safe. Herd members avoid bullies, choosing instead to spend time with friends and take their lead from a trusted member of the group, often referred to as the passive leader. Not passive as in not doing anything but elected rather than imposing their will. Given a choice, they're peaceable animals but our intervention, imposing our choice of friends on them, restricting their movement and feeding discrete meals does tend to mess things up for them, which is perhaps why you see more agonistic behaviours. Despite this, I see no reason to behave like the horse that they would, given the option, prefer to avoid. In fact, I prefer not to behave like or be thought of as a horse by them, because I'm human. I use my humanity, and supposedly being the more intelligent of the species learn how to get the behaviours I want without cracking the whip. Pretty sure I'm not the only one.
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How would you have dealt with the situation? How would you teach this young horse that a difference in his routine does not allow him to be aggressive to handlers? You are right absolutely, I believe that horses aren't stupid enough to think we are other horses - so as a human relating to your horse - what would have been your actions faced with a horse that was intent in double-barrelling and therefore maybe fatally injuring you?
 
Contrary to popular belief, herd dynamics don't correspond to a linear hierarchical system.

That aside, given that you see so many examples of agonistic behaviours with your horses I'm surprised that you do not see this as a specific reason NOT to behave in a similar way yourself. Put simply, if you behave like a horse to them, they may behave like a horse to you. Watch out for those hooves.

As for 'intimating' that we cause our horses to be dominant, I'm not intimating it at all. I'm saying that's the way it is. An easy example is food. Grazing horses do not fight over blades of grass. Most of us recognise that introducing discrete piles of hay or buckets of food causes agonistic behaviours. Just because we are seeing those behaviours does not mean they are the norm if humans, and their intervention, are taken out of the equation.
 
Firstly, whilst I have seen this behaviour in my herd, I have also seen it in other herds, semi feral and domesticated. Secondly, I have run a herd of ten on fifty acres, I have still seen physical reprimanding within the herd dynamics regardless of the abundance of space and grass, this is very often horses higher up in the hierarchy reprimanding young inexperienced hairbrained horses, this happens in any well adjusted herd hierarchy when youngsters step out of line. Thirdly, I am not a horse, I do not treat my horses as if I am a horse, their alpha, or dominant horse, I treat them as if I am their owner, their boss, the one who sets them boundaries, sets their rules and acts accordingly when they do not abide by them. For every horse the way I do this is different depending on their personality. My mare for example would have become a mess if hit, she was incredibly sensitive, a strop for her was always met with my ignoring the behavior and the behaviour would stop because she would have no response from me. Strops from her were commonly bouncing around, not standing still. I never needed to hit her for agressive violent behaviour because she did not exhibit it once in 11 years. That said, her reprimand would have been a growl, it simply would not have needed anymore. For Ben, he is a character who needs a very black and white approach, if you are not his boss he will walk all over you, if you are his boss, he will (barring the rug incident) do anything you want him to and behave well.

Personally, I do not see all horses natural behaviour as passive and peaceful because it isn't, as much as we as humans as individuals so are horses and as such much have an approach tailored to them, their behaviour and character. I treat them as individuals and use whatever approach works best and quickest for that horse, but then recognising they are individuals and treating them as such instead of using a one for all approach is my humanity in action I suppose.
 
although blurr is correct in what she is saying, tbh id personally rather give a horse one short sharp smack and have the issue dealt with there and then than the problem esculates, theres a lot of weight behind a back leg, more so than a whip delivered by an arm.
 
Blurr said:
Contrary to popular belief, herd dynamics don't correspond to a linear hierarchical system.

That aside, given that you see so many examples of agonistic behaviours with your horses I'm surprised that you do not see this as a specific reason NOT to behave in a similar way yourself. Put simply, if you behave like a horse to them, they may behave like a horse to you. Watch out for those hooves.

As for 'intimating' that we cause our horses to be dominant, I'm not intimating it at all. I'm saying that's the way it is. An easy example is food. Grazing horses do not fight over blades of grass. Most of us recognise that introducing discrete piles of hay or buckets of food causes agonistic behaviours. Just because we are seeing those behaviours does not mean they are the norm if humans, and their intervention, are taken out of the equation.
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What happens if grazing is limited in the wild? It is not unheard of after all. Are you saying that horses won't become aggressive towards each other if resources are low just because it is grass? The only difference imo is that the piles of hay are closer to each other, and that if it's one patch of grazing in a small area you'll get the same problem.
 
Agree with your approach Blurr.
Better to train a horse with out dramatics or unnecessary confrontation. Had my horse behaved as Benjamin did, I'd have been annoyed at myself not the horse.
 
http://www.happy-horse-training.com/herd-dynamics.html


Taken from the above link


Within a herd there is typically a lead stallion and a lead mare. It is their role to keep the herd safe and moving. With the lead mare at the front of the herd, and the stallion pushing from behind, they lead the community to food and water.

In wild horse herd dynamics, the stallion also has a second role of resolving any conflicts between other horses. From an observational point of view, it is very interesting to note that in certain situations the stallion chooses to intervene, but in others he does not. For minor disputes, if he considers that it is in the best interests of the horses concerned to fight it out alone in order to learn a particular lesson, he will let a conflict go ahead, all the while keeping a watchful eye on the proceedings.


If, however, the fight is more serious, puts the herd in danger, or threatens his position as lead stallion, he will intervene by displaying aggressive body language. In most cases, this means lowering his neck and flattening his ears towards the other horse, often with a short charge. If this is not enough, he will display all of this behavior with a bite or kick at the end. As soon as the message has been received the stallion becomes very passive and resumes whatever activity he was doing before the conflict, such as eating or grooming.
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Conflicts are resolved by an instant reprimand from the leader. The leader then becomes passive straight after the reprimand and resumes what they were doing before, they don’t hold grudges
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So in a nutshell yes, bluff you are right, passive plays a huge role in natural herd dynamics - right after the lead horse has opened a can of whoop ass and got the message across. ;)

Perhaps where you are from wild herds are different, perhaps there are also little bears that live in the sky too.
 
MerrySherryRider said:
Agree with your approach Blurr.
Better to train a horse with out dramatics or unnecessary confrontation. Had my horse behaved as Benjamin did, I'd have been annoyed at myself not the horse.
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Tell me exactly why, with a horse that has tied up outside many times in his life to have his rugs changed, you would be annoyed at yourself for him throwing a childish tantrum, I'm genuinely intrigued. Further more, someone already asked blurr but she has declined to respond so far, but how exactly would you have reacted to the situation and stopped him doing it? He doesn't have a problem with the rug, so you don't need to desensitise him, popping a haynet outside would just be rewarding the behaviour. You can't exactly turn him loose and drive him away for being naughty until he comes back and stands sweetly for you. Do people seriously think that working on fixing a thuggish potentially dangerous attitude problem over the course of a number of sessions gently gently is better than sorting it right there and then with a short sharp shock tactic? And why does a crack with a whip qualify as unnecessary dramatics? The mind boggles! Perhaps I should become all natural horsemanship in my approach and start waggling a rope around so it cracks him in the face a couple of dozen times, since apparently that's acceptable to those who use non violent approaches.
 
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God some folk eh? If mine did that he'd get a shock, I've had a good few ' discussions' with my boy in the looong years I've had him. 500kgs vs 60kgs is not a fair fight when hooves are flying. NOT acceptable no matter what.
 
Blurr said:
And typically, anyone who doesn't find it acceptable to take a stick to a horse to teach it a lesson must be some namby pamby softly softly bunny hugging idiot who whispers sweet nothings in diddums ear in the hope he'll behave. Well some people might do that, but I for one don't think it would be very effective. It is possible to teach manners without violence and violence is what you're advocating.
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Very well put
 
Queenbee said:
Tell me exactly why, with a horse that has tied up outside many times in his life to have his rugs changed, you would be annoyed at yourself for him throwing a childish tantrum, I'm genuinely intrigued. Further more, someone already asked blurr but she has declined to respond so far, but how exactly would you have reacted to the situation and stopped him doing it? He doesn't have a problem with the rug, so you don't need to desensitise him, popping a haynet outside would just be rewarding the behaviour. You can't exactly turn him loose and drive him away for being naughty until he comes back and stands sweetly for you. Do people seriously think that working on fixing a thuggish potentially dangerous attitude problem over the course of a number of sessions gently gently is better than sorting it right there and then with a short sharp shock tactic? And why does a crack with a whip qualify as unnecessary dramatics? The mind boggles! Perhaps I should become all natural horsemanship in my approach and start waggling a rope around so it cracks him in the face a couple of dozen times, since apparently that's acceptable to those who use non violent approaches.
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So you think the alternative is 'a course of sessions, gently, gently etc, etc...

Not my way.

Neither is a crack with a whip because you changed the what the horse had been taught to expect.

You established a rigid winter routine without thinking about the days someone else would bring in your hungry horse. For horses that need the security of routine, a change is a big deal and not to be aware of that is a bit unfair on the horse and the handler.

I vary things around slightly so routine is familiar but not set on stone. Waggling ropes, sending away and a lovey, lovey approach over a course of sessions isn't necessary. Just a quiet way of working without dramatics.
 
OK MerrySherryRider, but this incident happened to her friend. How would you propose someone in that situation where the horse is kicking out at you behaves? Why is one short smack and a growl such a travesty? This is a genuine question as I am always willing to learn, it's just rather frustrating when a poster is attacked for being "violent" but no proper solution for the situation in hand is given.
 
Apologies for not replying as requested, I was typing another reply, didn't see the 'how would you deal with it question' until I'd finished that one, by which time it was after 10 and being up at 4.45am during the week, way past my bed time already :)

In the first instance if I'd been (d)QB, I'd have told my friend what my routine was and stick to that to avoid problems.

Is your horse actually striking at people? Aiming at them? That's a worry, what have you been doing to him to make him think that's okay?

Personally, I'd teach my horse what I DO want, so he does that. Calmly, quietly and firmly. And I'd do it before he got to the point of wanting to lash out. I'd probably teach stuff like head lowering, which is useful anyway, and yielding the shoulders, both get a calm submissive horse and neither involves cracking with a whip or a lead clip (seriously, you think I'm a parelli-ite?, god forbid, they're some of the most violent cowboys out there!). If I was teaching tying up outside the stable to change a rug, I wouldn't tie up outside the stable and start changing the rug. I'd look at the component parts of that exercise, break it down, teach them, build it up. It doesn't take long, does have a lasting effect, means you can use those components in other exercises and you don't have a horse working against you, or only working with you if you're holding a crop. I find it easy but can see that for some it would simply be too much effort. Far simpler to give him a crack. He is only your best friend, afterall.
 
MerrySherryRider said:
So you think the alternative is 'a course of sessions, gently, gently etc, etc...

Not my way.

Neither is a crack with a whip because you changed the what the horse had been taught to expect.

You established a rigid winter routine without thinking about the days someone else would bring in your hungry horse. For horses that need the security of routine, a change is a big deal and not to be aware of that is a bit unfair on the horse and the handler.

I vary things around slightly so routine is familiar but not set on stone. Waggling ropes, sending away and a lovey, lovey approach over a course of sessions isn't necessary. Just a quiet way of working without dramatics.
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Msr... How would you have delt with it was the question, you have not answered this at all. How would you have delt with the fact that your normally very well behaved horse one day turns around and reacts in the way that Ben has? Are you truly saying your response would be to vary things slightly? What if he did it to you? What would you do there and then to rectify it, to make him stand up nicely so you could get his coat on?

Blurr said:
Apologies for not replying as requested, I was typing another reply, didn't see the 'how would you deal with it question' until I'd finished that one, by which time it was after 10 and being up at 4.45am during the week, way past my bed time already :)

In the first instance if I'd been (d)QB, I'd have told my friend what my routine was and stick to that to avoid problems.


Is your horse actually striking at people? Aiming at them? That's a worry, what have you been doing to him to make him think that's okay?

Personally, I'd teach my horse what I DO want, so he does that. Calmly, quietly and firmly. And I'd do it before he got to the point of wanting to lash out. I'd probably teach stuff like head lowering, which is useful anyway, and yielding the shoulders, both get a calm submissive horse and neither involves cracking with a whip or a lead clip (seriously, you think I'm a parelli-ite?, god forbid, they're some of the most violent cowboys out there!). If I was teaching tying up outside the stable to change a rug, I wouldn't tie up outside the stable and start changing the rug. I'd look at the component parts of that exercise, break it down, teach them, build it up. It doesn't take long, does have a lasting effect, means you can use those components in other exercises and you don't have a horse working against you, or only working with you if you're holding a crop. I find it easy but can see that for some it would simply be too much effort. Far simpler to give him a crack. He is only your best friend, afterall.
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Friend knows routine she has witnessed it a hundred times

I think by accusing me of causing him to think it is ok to lash out at people you are deliberately trying to goad me.

My horse is handled by about three other people, yo turns out, occasionally yos assistant does this, another livery brings him in whenever she brings her horse in as the entrance to her field is through his.

One of the first things he learnt is to lower his head and yield to pressure. He yields his quarters, shoulders, chest and lowers his head. This is constantly being drilled in, we will often walk in to the field and play with halting backing up and yielding on the way to the stable, so he knows he must be patient. Head lowering was first taught with clicker training when he was about 2 but is expected on a daily basis when tacking or using head collar.

He is used to having rugs placed on him, flung on him from both LHS and RHS so they are dragging on the ground, so they fall off his bum, they can be done up in any order. This is not an issue.


So seeing as I already have done the component parts of the exercises you suggest and he still double barreled someone in a stop, what next?
 
Blurr said:
Far simpler to give him a crack. He is only your best friend, afterall.
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There's a few of my best friends that I wouldn't hesitate to I've a crack if they were this out of line and I'm talking humans. QB I totally agree with you on this. My girl would and has received a smack for similar behaviour
 
lurcherlu said:
There's a few of my best friends that I wouldn't hesitate to I've a crack if they were this out of line and I'm talking humans. QB I totally agree with you on this. My girl would and has received a smack for similar behaviour
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Thank you lurcherlu :). I often sit and snigger when some people say how they would have handled/trained my horse and I think 'I'd like to see you try" with this particular horse. It simply wouldn't register, obviously I've never tried to be subtle with him in my life.
 
Queenbee said:
Friend knows routine she has witnessed it a hundred times

I think by accusing me of causing him to think it is ok to lash out at people you are deliberately trying to goad me.

My horse is handled by about three other people, yo turns out, occasionally yos assistant does this, another livery brings him in whenever she brings her horse in as the entrance to her field is through his.

One of the first things he learnt is to lower his head and yield to pressure. He yields his quarters, shoulders, chest and lowers his head. This is constantly being drilled in, we will often walk in to the field and play with halting backing up and yielding on the way to the stable, so he knows he must be patient. Head lowering was first taught with clicker training when he was about 2 but is expected on a daily basis when tacking or using head collar.

He is used to having rugs placed on him, flung on him from both LHS and RHS so they are dragging on the ground, so they fall off his bum, they can be done up in any order. This is not an issue.


So seeing as I already have done the component parts of the exercises you suggest and he still double barreled someone in a stop, what next?
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Re goading, wasn't it you that said I'd swallowed a dictionary and called me Bluff? Hey ho.

Excellent. Now all you need to do is teach those others who handle him that as soon as he gets antsy, to use your calm down cues, thereby preventing escalation. And that it's okay to stop doing what you're doing to do this until he's in a better place to accept his rugs being flung up (or other mundane task) rather than carrying on regardless provoking him to up the ante. And since you had to give him a crack when you tied him up outside, perhaps revisit the rules yourself? Whatever you think he's learnt, he's not so sure.

Alternatively, for anyone else handling your horse, you can ask them to stick to his/your routine to avoid upset/potential injuries.

As for people knowing how to handle your horse better than you do, not at all. From what you're written, apart from escalating to crackign with a whip, you sound very similar to me (though I'm sure neither one of us wants that written on an open forum). It was your tone that prompted me to respond, ordinarily I wouldn't have. Whether you meant to or not, you sounded as though you were boasting about being big and brave enough to tackle your oh so dangerous striking and double barrelling big bad beastie with a crop. And that's never nice to read, is it?
 
what, that my horse misbehaved an as such i will be keeping a whip to hand and giving him a smack if (and only if) he does it again? Nope, not a wind up. :D
 
Well I had such a giggle at the picture of a horse chomping its haunts in the yard and thinking. To itself Ooh my human is rewarding my bad behaviour!It has to be a wind up.
 
Lol, yes exactly, while I've no problem giving him a haynet when he is nice and well behaved, under these circumstances I'd not be giving him a haynet or any form of reward. That isn't to say that if he came in and behaved while being tied up to rug I wouldn't give him a treat and a scratch at the end as a reward, but if misbehaving he will be told off, then the second he stops I will carry on as normal. I don't stand their brandishing the whip so he doesn't do it, I keep it tucked in the back of my jeans if I have it. Then it goes straight back there, and I go back to being normal mummy. :). He can have his hay when he goes in his field or his stable, not when he's throwing a strop ;)
 
I don't know that a horse would think a haynet is a reward .
What bothers me is using a whip for punishment, and you don't seem to acknowledge your contribution to his behavior, tho I could have missed that as your posts are epic. Sorry if that's the case.
I'd be all over his manners like a rash, but not with a whip.
 
teabiscuit said:
I don't know that a horse would think a haynet is a reward .
What bothers me is using a whip for punishment, and you don't seem to acknowledge your contribution to his behavior, tho I could have missed that as your posts are epic. Sorry if that's the case.
I'd be all over his manners like a rash, but not with a whip.
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So how would you be all over his manners in this situation? Again, I am trying to learn, I have always given one short, sharp smack if a horse is throwing a strop which has worked and would like to know other methods.
 
Op's initial post was a little unfair on the horse. Surely his behaviour was a gap in his training combined with a handler unable to diffuse the situation before it escalated.
 
MerrySherryRider said:
You established a rigid winter routine without thinking about the days someone else would bring in your hungry horse. For horses that need the security of routine, a change is a big deal and not to be aware of that is a bit unfair on the horse and the handler.
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No excuse for both back barrels to be directed at a human, fidgeting etc yes a bit stroppy maybe but both back barrels nope.
 
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