Badminton XC - thoughts?

[Puppy]

Did anyone else think that wrt to the water, where there were so many refusals, that yes the turn in was sharp & challenging but it also seemed that a lot of the horses were maybe dazzled by the sun off the water?! A few, I thought, looked quite 'blinded' there.

 

[LEC]

Mike Tucker used to drive me crazy but I promise you its a very very tough job! He gets a lot of misinformation and then has to unravel it. They will say going to Oliver Townend on camera 6 and then use a shot of someone completely different. They have information coming in from around the course, the start box and also from the director who is choosing all the shots from 26 cameras around the course!

 

[Puppy]

Oh yes, I do enjoy having Tina doing the commentary

 

[oldvic]

Agree Kerilli - they couldn't move any injured riders before they did and Partly Pickled got up as soon as he got some wind into himself so the holds were through necessity. When you fall on firm ground it is more likely that you will hurt yourself which is why it seemed worse this year.
There was some excellent riding as well as some that could be improved. It is unusual to see Toddy on a tired horse but he kept him balanced and gave him every chance. The horse pricked his ears to each fence so was entitled to complete and towed his handler back to the stables once he'd recovered. It is also unusual to see William having to work so hard and have both horses outside the time. While the horses didn't look entirely convincing, William made it as easy as possible for them. Andrew had 2 clear inside the time - no mean achievement today - and after his 1st round people could have been forgiven for thinking that there would be a lot clear inside the time. Nereo jumped equally well. O.Buzz was as unconventional as ever but Nicola rides him so well and Laura Collett, Lauren Shannon and Aoife Clarke looked riders with a good future. Marina Kohncke rode well and Kai Ruder did well on a horse that didn't help him much but the other Germans looked a bit scary.
Others had lovely rides from genuine, good jumping horses and some have a lot to thank their horses for!

 

[Santa_Claus]

To say again camilla was too fast which was undoubtably the reason for the fall BUT and it's a big but camilla was trying to slow up big style and horse was saying no. Horse is only 15h1 if I'm right so will have to move on more than most between fences to make or get close to the time and on this occasion when asked to come back horse said no. Queue hitting it in front as jumped flat and too close and corkscrewed over it semi rotational styley landing together on the otherside.

 

[BBP]

Have to say I don't think the weather can be blamed for today, it was about perfect, I was too cold in short sleeves and there was a nice breeze blowing. Although the previous weeks weather may have left some horses a little dehydrated. Perhaps it was more down to the event coming slightly early in the calendar and some riders being caught out fitness wise.

Agree that Oli's horse seems to leave a leg every time I see him.

Gorgeous rounds by Zeus (I want him!) and the Calma Schely, as well as Lucinda's horse. And I thought Mark rode beautifully, perhaps as the horse was a bit green he became mentally tired as well as physically.

I didn't enjoy Bruce Davidsons round, or Andreas.

Hopefully I will get an update on Camilla soon, my physio treats Jiff and thinks the world of him, I got there in time to see her on the floor (I am a bad influence, everyone I have connections to seems to fall off!). Poor little Jiff, needs to learn to listen!

In all I thought it rode very very well, with an odd spate of falls at the start of the last third of horses, no idea why.

 

[JANANI]

I recorded the X country earlier and have only just finished due to issues in taping I have only got to see to the middle of Polly's round.

I loved Aoife Clarke - she was just fabulous in her first round as my recording stopped I didn't get to see her second round.
I thought Joseph Murphy looked very classy and I wished the BBC showed more of his round.
And as always I loved Andrew Nicholson as he makes it look so easy.

Ingrid was just going too fast into the jumps and was a tad scary to watch.
Andreas Oshalt was just awful. He is Frank's brother according to the commentry which is hard to believe given that Frank is such a classy rider. He was so unbalanced and unfit and looked so out of place.
Buck Davidson (loved his daddy during the commentry) just looked so unbalanced and untidy.

I thought the commentry was the very good and although Mike Tucker annoys me I know he hasn't an easy job. Ian Stark was great as usual and I really enjoyed the differnt riders giving their commentry. Well done to the BBC

 

[brighthair]

My stupid recorder cut it off at Polly Stockton? So I missed Oppostion Buzz :-(
don't know why it did that. Hopefully will show it on the highlights
I put it on in the staffroom at work, and had the usual rolling of eyes, and then people started watching. It was fab actually, and everyone got really into it, I had constant updates when I was out of the room of "Person on brown horse fell at a brown jump"
and I went back an hour later and it was still on the tv which was the ultimate test!

 

[brighthair]

I recorded the X country earlier and have only just finished due to issues in taping I have only got to see to the middle of Polly's round.

I

ah.... did you record on a Freeview box? Just that mine cut it off in the exact same place

 

[JANANI]

Yes. I really wanted to see opposition Buzz as I love watching him. Hopefully will see him in the highlights.

 

[MurphysMinder]

I recorded it through freeview but was watching it also. it did stop at 5pm which was the scheduled time for Badminton to end, I then had a real battle to get it to continue recording, kept telling me I had recorded that programme! I think it was around the time of Opposition Buzz's round so that could have been why some of you had problems.

 

[Weezy]

Andreas Ostholt rode pretty badly I thought.
Ingrid Klimke was scary to watch, surely after the slips the horse had you would slow up.
Emily Llewellyn and P were just arguing with each other, I couldn't see any abuse.
Westwood Poser was brilliant and reacted like a pony when Polly saw a long one, likewise Polly reacted very quickly to grab the broken martingale strap, well done to her
Thought Ben Hobday asked quite alot of a very tired horse to do the long route at the quarry. However he does explain his decisions - http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/blogs/7617/307116.html
Really impressed with Aoife Clarke.
Also impressed with Lauren Shannon.
Thought Nicola Wilson was fab how she was so quick to pick up on BD not being right.
I think that Karen O'Connor should have pulled M up before the bank however in her decision to carry on I think she should have offered M a bit more help.
Really liked the big irish horse that fell in the water, such a shame.
Lucinda Fredericks was classy. A very classy mare too, who would have skipped around the course again!
Sam Griffiths had a lovely round.
I really like Drivetime but I wonder if Emily knows he has the problem then she should have given him a good smack on the way in.
Rosie Thomas and Barry's Best looked to have great fun but didn't seem as smooth and together as normal.

Agree with the above Must say myself how much I loved Lauren Shannon's riding - so quiet and poised, she put some riders twice her age to shame!

I felt really sorry for Oli, never thought I would say that, but he was riding ACM so well and I admit to willing him to pick his bloody legs up. TBH I think the horse should take a step back now, it is a death waiting to happen...yes, that is strong, but look at what has happened thus far, it is scary and sad as the horse CAN do it, but not at the expense of one day poss landing on Oli and killing him this time...

I enjoyed the French girl, her recovery at the Colt Pond was brilliant. Very sorry to see her face plant at the quarry but she did come down way too fast.

Buzz was just incredible but I cannot help but want Toddy to win....could they be joint winners please

 

[MrsMozart]

My first trip to Badminton yesterday, so very limited knowledge. It got up to 19 degrees according to the car's readout. We alternated between just a tee-shirt and adding a fleece/shirt. There was a good, albeit gentle, breeze most of the time. The temperature didn't pick up 'till midday when the hazy cloud covering started to shift.

Although it's been a long time since I was at a course of that level, and when I was it was in America, so different conditions weather wise, etc., but (she says, finally getting to the point), I was very surprised by the number of horses that looked kn*ckered at the halfway stage. They were catching fences and giving heart in the mouth moments, especially at the water jump.

The hold-ups were long-ish, but necessary at the time. Not good for the horses held on the course, but it's one of the variables of the sport sadly.

 

[sleepingdragon10]

Buck Davidson (loved his daddy during the commentry) just looked so unbalanced and untidy.

The man does not have the class/horsemanship that his father had. He just looks awful, and seems to ride rather 'heavily', for want of a better word.

 

[MagicMelon]

Also there are a fair few threads in other parts of the forum about 'whip abuse'. I'm surprised by this as most of the riders I saw were trying to encourage their horses to jump better and help them out rather than punish them. I didn't see anyone hit their horse in a temper and I wouldn't have called it abuse? Am I the only person who thinks that?

I didnt see any temper smacking as such - but I didn't like it when several riders smacked their horses 3 or 4 times in a row whilst galloping, I assume to wake them up and really go for the time but I find that unecessary.

Andreas Ostholt - didnt like his riding at all.
Oliver T - Sorry, but I hate his riding style. I always think a fall is imminent as he seems so keen to go for a long one all the time.
Buck Davidson - Agree with the above, he looked terribly heavy and all over the place.

The horse which stood out to me was a chestnut with girl rider (cant remember names!) - the horse was so pingy and fun looking to ride, then it face planted in the water Such a shame as what a happy little horse!

 

[Honey08]

Agree with the above
I felt really sorry for Oli, never thought I would say that, but he was riding ACM so well and I admit to willing him to pick his bloody legs up. TBH I think the horse should take a step back now, it is a death waiting to happen...yes, that is strong, but look at what has happened thus far, it is scary and sad as the horse CAN do it, but not at the expense of one day poss landing on Oli and killing him this time...

I
Buzz was just incredible but I cannot help but want Toddy to win....could they be joint winners please

I agree with this. Apart from not wanting Toddy to win - only because he has won it so so many times it gets boring!

Re OT. I wouldn't get on that horse again at that level (not that I would do that level anyway!) Isn't Flint Curtis sound again now and being brought back into work again? I admire OT loads, but think that he operates on a "drive on" method, which may not be the best when something goes wrong, or a horse leaves a leg??

Lucinda's mare, Prada, looked a real cross country monster. I watched her in the warm up and wondered how she had ever got a dressage test out of it! She looked like one of those mares that would rather die than slow down.

As for the weather, yes it was warm, but not overly. I'm a northerner and actually had to put a coat on now and again! I think the only time the sun would really matter would be for those that got held on the course for the time that it took for the air ambulance to land etc - other than that I didn't think that the holds were too long.

I haven't been to Badminton for five years, but go to Burghley every year, and didn't find this course as shockingly big as I usually do. The ground at Badminton is so flat and smooth compared to the up and down of Burghley that I thought it would have few problems. I guess that that made it a fast course, and caused the problems perhaps.

Anyway, only my musings!

Worst thing about Badminton this year was the queue to get out! Took ages.

 

[AmyMay]

Interesting comments about unfit horses and struggling horses. Why didn't the stewards stop them?

 

[Mrs B]

I think what stands out for me about Mr Todd is watching the way he 'explained' to his young horse what was required of him all the way round. Such a lightness of touch given back after each correction and how he thinks and acts so fast, I do not know!

Particularly watching him through Huntsman's Close - those fences must come up so fast, especially that swing right to the bounce, but you could watch MT showing him exactly what he needed to do and helping him achieve it every stride of the way.

What a rider.

 

[kickonchaps]

Toddy was fantastic, WFP was fantastic, Nicola Wilson was my favourite but I'm a tiny bit biased because I have a Java Tiger baby

What are people's thoughts on the lake? It seemed (dare I say it...) easier this year, more technical but not as terrifying! I still think out of all the lake complexes the one I'd least like to have jumped is the one a few years ago with a double bounce of logs I remember if people missed their line and drifted left there wasn't a bounce and there wasn't a stride either so they were screwed!

The Hexagon Hedge rode a lot better this year than last, I think everyone had figured it out! And I hope the corners get taken out, or at least adjusted, seems like most riders voted with (all four of) their feet and said not worth the risk!

 

[Luci07]

I was lucky enough to be there, which also means there is an awful lot I didn't see, and thanks to being unbelievalbe blonde, managed to exit the house (at 6.30 in the morning) having walked past the large post it saying SET SKY + as I left. I will have to wait till next week to catch in on H&C now!

I saw Ingrids horse slip at the corrall - literally sit on its backside, she stuck her leg on and the horse came up and bounced out. I saw a fair few go through the water and most needed pretty positive riding to get through the short combination. I felt very sorry for the rider on the Good Witch - horse seemed suprised by the first jump and then said a flat no on the 2nd attempt. Gutting for the rider.

I did however, see an awful lot of extremely tired horses. I also saw OT going upto the quarry and his horse was knackered. Blowing heavily and struggling so I am not altogether convinced that it was all to do with the horse being a poor jumper..

I am not a 4* rider, neither will I ever get anywhere near there but even with my basic eventing experience, I wonder why some horses struggled so very badly when others (and btw - not many of you have mentioned Mary Kings round - that horse finished just full of running) seemed to almost cruise round. The only time I have seen horses struggle that badly fitness wise at Badminton was some years ago when it was just pouring and the ground became very sticky. I am looking forward to reading what Mark Phillips will say about this! Day was odd temperature wise as I kept alternating between a thin fleece and a vest but have been on the net hunting for riders thoughts on the general fitness level of the competitors..

 

[WoopsiiD]

I did however, see an awful lot of extremely tired horses. I also saw OT going upto the quarry and his horse was knackered. Blowing heavily and struggling so I am not altogether convinced that it was all to do with the horse being a poor jumper..

That's my opinion too and I was at the quarry and saw the fall and OT went down in my estimations a bit yesterday.
We watched him coming towards the quarry on the big screen and quite a few of the crowd were of the same opinion that the fall was coming.

 

[Replay]

I think horses were finishing so tired due to a combination of the heat and a slightly unusual layout of the course. There seemed to be more requirement than usual to pull horses out of their rhythm to negotiate groups of fences. Tight groups of fences - some of which were off the natural line of the course - rather than combinations that can be negotiated in a flowing rhythm with just slight setting up This is more tiring for the horses and not something that they are used to on the longer distance of a long 3 day course.

 

[Vixen Van Debz]

Sorry if I sound dim, but how on earth did all the disciplines of equestrianism compete in the summer heat of Kentucky if a nice, summery day in England played such a big factor in fitness? When I train to run, I prepare myself for worse than my course - so I run for longer, I run on bigger gradients, I run in a mix of weather... I fail to see how competitive, top-end riders wouldn't be doing the same with their horses, so that they're fit for more than the minimum required? The fact that Tina Cook was surprised and disappointed at fitness and she was there admist the weather conditions is worth noting.

Cinders almost preaches on the value of uphill gallops, and it showed. Prada looked the class of the field in terms of fitness. Buzz didn't look any the worse off for jumping a long XC course either!

Watching Olly was horrible: it's that awful accident waiting to happen feeling, and we've already seen it before at Lexington. I had it with Ingrid too. Yes, the commentators can call it 'bold' and 'fun to watch' if they like, but it doesn't stop making me find that speed uncomfortable to watch. She showed us exactly why at that gate into the close.

The hold-ups were all justified, and it was great to see the horses being drenched and kept cool while waiting. Lots of other sports in the world would be complaining about it. Can you imagine a marathon runner getting beat by a competitor who got a 30min break and a cool bath and not complaining? I don't think so. I think it speaks volumes about the horses' welfare coming first.

I fear all hell breaking loose, but wasn't there lots of galloping on a similarly hot day over huge fences going on a few weeks ago, and all lots of people could do was say it was inhumane and start petitions? Food for thought...

 

[TarrSteps]

Sorry if I sound dim, but how on earth did all the disciplines of equestrianism compete in the summer heat of Kentucky if a nice, summery day in England played such a big factor in fitness? When I train to run, I prepare myself for worse than my course - so I run for longer, I run on bigger gradients, I run in a mix of weather... I fail to see how competitive, top-end riders wouldn't be doing the same with their horses, so that they're fit for more than the minimum required? The fact that Tina Cook was surprised and disappointed at fitness and she was there admist the weather conditions is worth noting.

Bizarrely, Canada is the "horse cooling" research centre because its "horsey" areas can have a 60C difference between winter and summer. A lot of the work has been done on practical cooling (misting fans, cooling regimes etc) but with horses a big part of the equation is how you acclimatise them to extreme (even if that's relative) temperatures. (Horses do cold very well, heat not so much.)

Horses have a very "set" natural rhythm, depending on not only temperature but daylight hours, which regulates coat growth, metabolism etc. In the natural run of thing, "native" horses acclimatise as the weather changes but this take time and a sudden change of weather takes the hardest toll. This can also be cumulative - when horses are acclimatising ideally you want to do less/maintain their work level initially and build up to the ultimate effort.

I don't know if the recent weather had any effect on how the horses coped at Badminton but a sudden, unexpected temperature spike like we've had would have left people with little time to adjust their programs in the way they would have had they been travelling to somewhere much warmer. (Before Hong Kong some teams galloped horses in "sweat suits" to approximate working in hotter, more humid circumstances, or moved them to hotter climes far ahead of the competition date.)

As far as getting horses "over fit", that can be tricky. 4* is getting towards the ultimate question for most horses and at that level, soundness has to be a constant concern. There's no sense having a fit horse that's not sound enough to play. Yes, human athletes have similar concerns but they don't have to deal with the welfare aspect and they don't have a vet inspection before they compete! I'm pretty sure if you excluded every human athlete with, say, shin splints, it would add up.

Again, not that I'm saying this WAS a factor, just that the problems of getting horses fit for the unexpected is very tricky.

And some horses just cope better. There are "radiator" horses and "boiler" horses. If you look at Endurance horses they are all "radiators" - hot weather is not a huge factor for most of them. Dressage horses and show jumpers are generally "boilers" so heat is more a concern but they don't have the sustained effort issue. Event horses are neither betwixt or between - by definition they have to be "all rounders" and can't - if they're winners - have the same extreme body types. It's no fluke that many of the horses that eat up the xc don't necessarily do the best tests.

 

[suzysparkle]

The comment about Canada having a 60C temperature difference between Winter and Summer. I was just thinking, in November/Deecember I saw it drop to -22.5C here and so far this year I've seen it up to 23C. That's 45.5C of a variation in 6 months. I think you have made a really good point there. It has been much more extreme the last few months. We are pretty used to it up here but areas of the UK that don't normally get much snow got a lot this winter.

I know with our Huskies there's a huge difference in performance depending on temperature. Obviously they prefer the cold but when it gets really cold the difference is amazing. When you see them finish a 20 mile sprint in Alaska they barely need water afterwards (they 'dip' for snow!). I know dogs aren't the same in the way they regulate temperature but we do vary distance depending on temperature. I've had one overheat before and it was awful. No reason for it other than he got worked up beforehand - it was pretty cold and he was easily fit enough. So, maybe the ones that tire more easily get themselves more stressed beforehand? Another possible thought especially at the big events when the atmosphere is buzzing.

Anyway, I really enjoyed the coverage. Thanks to BBC for all of it, and I see H&C have plenty re-runs coming. There was a few not so good runs to watch and few brilliant ones. I loved watching Buzz and Lucinda's Mare - they were my favourites.

 

[jenbleep]

I've just got back!! Please bear in mind that I'm tired and on a berry with tiny keys

Lucinda and Prada-perfect combination, such a smart little horse and full of running after 4 miles round Badminton. One to watch I think.

Saw Opposition Buzz through the huntsmans close and really pinged through the bounce-really helped out Nicola there which made me smile Great horse

Fell in love with Flora's **** horse-20 min wait at fence 12 and really flew the log and ditch, so genuine. I really felt for everyone when Elizabeth was flown away, talk about a confidence shaker!! I do hope Elizabeth is ok too, has anyone heard?

Girl who fell at the trucks-again how is she? She was flying into those and I'm not really surprised it went wrong for her there we were just at that fence but moved to the front of the drop at the lake when it happened. Hope she's ok.

Made up for Mark Todd, can't believe he's won yet again and on one a NZB. Legend, he is a class act and knows exactly what he's doing

And Lenamore...poetry in motion!!

 

[Harrie123]

Just wanted to say how good Matthew Wrights horse Well Spotted looked going through the quarry, he was still full of running, looks like a great jumper!

 

[Jul]

I would agree with the majority of this, except I would be surprised if Mandiba spooked at the air jacket. There was a bit delay between the pop and him moving off. Infact, it looked like, and I think a few others agreed on the other thread, that she waved her reins in dissapointment and he spooked at that. Would be interesting to see a replay, although don't think i could see him hit the deck again

That was my thought when i watched it too. There was definately a moment of calm in the horse before Karen chucked her reins (in what seemed to be fustration) before he went over the edge. And if it was a factor noone will be blaming themselves more than Karen herself.

Got to say that this is exactly what I thought, that last comment too thoroughlybred. She was on her feet and holding onto the horse, but let go in what appeared to be frustration. A great pity, but we do all get frustrated sometimes and she obviously didn't have time to predict what was going to happen. It looked as if she could have held onto it IMO but didn't, which didn't make for great watching unfortunately

Opposition Buzz was just fantastic, so gutted for them to have had the fence(s?) down in the SJ.

 

[Sanolly]

Sadly I only got to see the highlights yesterday as was busy on Sunday, so I was wondering if anyone took the direct route at the farmyard with those 2 corners? I saw one rider do it (can't remember her name!) and her horse caught his leg on the short rail on the second corner, after that everyone else took the long route.

 

[kerilli]

Sadly I only got to see the highlights yesterday as was busy on Sunday, so I was wondering if anyone took the direct route at the farmyard with those 2 corners? I saw one rider do it (can't remember her name!) and her horse caught his leg on the short rail on the second corner, after that everyone else took the long route.

a few did it. Toddy did it on his first one (Major Milestone), i think the German girl did it on Calma Schelly, straight as a die, one of the Brit young riders did it (one of the Emilys?! sorry, i can't remember which one it was!) Not many once they realised that it didn't waste much time and was such a risk. They had to set up a lot more for the 2 corners, whereas if they took the first one on the angle they could just keep coming to it.
really hope Nicola's horse is okay, that looked a nasty bang to the stifle.