AShetlandBitMeOnce
Well-Known Member
Fair enough, good to know it's being worked on!
Badminton XC thread
- Thread starter Supertrooper
- Start date
Fair enough, good to know it's being worked on!
fetlock
Well-Known Member
oh no, Alexander Bragg is out
I totally wasn't impressed with him today. To give that horse a couple of whacks as soon as it was up from its knees was appalling.
Chianti
Well-Known Member
I wonder how it looks to the outside world when you have so many horses having, what sounded like, quite nasty falls? This is meant to be entertainment. Can it be entertaining when there's a possibility that the animal concerned may be injured. Years ago I used to go to all the big events and really enjoyed them, I'm not sure I could now. The public's response to the experience of the horse in the Modern Pentathlon was swift and they wanted change. I think everyone in the horse world has to be aware that we are now constantly under review and horses falling over, what look like very challenging jumps, may be the next MP moment.
DiNozzo
Well-Known Member
I don’t think Toledo’s fall was that bad. It certainly looked dramatic, but he was up and cantering away still looking thoroughly pleased with himself.
I’m far more concerned about horses like Swallow Springs that tangled with the flag and the poor horse that fell at the last.
I’m far more concerned about horses like Swallow Springs that tangled with the flag and the poor horse that fell at the last.
Mynstrel
Well-Known Member
Just watched a compilation of today's falls on YouTube. It wasn't pretty.
teapot
Well-Known Member
Interestingly Kitty's horse had blood down one front leg and wasn't stopped...
I noticed at the time and there's a photo on the Badminton website for everyone to see.
I noticed at the time and there's a photo on the Badminton website for everyone to see.
Sandstone1
Well-Known Member
The fact that horsey people are now also questioning the ethics of using horses in this way also speaks volumes.
Wishfilly
Well-Known Member
I haven't seen it all as went out to ride and do the pony, and then the replay isn't up yet, but the issue for me was that most of those who didn't complete seemed to have nasty, crashing falls- not all of them but a lot. Nicola's fall obviously had serious consequences, Emily King could have been dragged- that was a real heart in mouth moment for me, Tom McEwen's fall was not nice at all, Cathal Daniels was another where I felt like the fall could be really serious- and that is just off the top of my head, I feel like there were other falls where both horse and rider went down and it is always just horrible to see.
I think far more mims clips/frangible pins could have been used on course to give it the technicality, but punish the riders with penalties, not with injuries- never mind the horses!
Controversial statement perhaps, but I don't think the punishment for a rider getting a fence wrong needs to be an injury- let alone to the horse!
Especially given the context of there having been no Badminton for 3 years and 40 Badminton first timers, plus several doing 5* for the first time.
It's also interesting that in commentary, when I think it was Tina and Piggy in the box together they both said you do not get any fences of this level in any one day events- obviously advanced 1 day XC is different, but you'd think you might get maybe one fence per course which was similar technicality/difficulty?
I have to say I can't remember the last event I watched where there were so many horse falls.
I think far more mims clips/frangible pins could have been used on course to give it the technicality, but punish the riders with penalties, not with injuries- never mind the horses!
Controversial statement perhaps, but I don't think the punishment for a rider getting a fence wrong needs to be an injury- let alone to the horse!
Especially given the context of there having been no Badminton for 3 years and 40 Badminton first timers, plus several doing 5* for the first time.
It's also interesting that in commentary, when I think it was Tina and Piggy in the box together they both said you do not get any fences of this level in any one day events- obviously advanced 1 day XC is different, but you'd think you might get maybe one fence per course which was similar technicality/difficulty?
I have to say I can't remember the last event I watched where there were so many horse falls.
RachelFerd
Well-Known Member
Interesting that people are reflecting on it being tough. I feel like I saw more horse falls than I would want/like to see - but equally, the clear rate was quite high actually at 63%.
I often read on here that people want to see courses returned to the 'good ole days' of solid timber and less skinnies - which this very much was (in fact, no really skinny skinnies whatsoever) - but if you're not using skinny skinnies to seperate the field by having lots of drive-by harmless 20pens, they are going to have to be separated another way. In this case they were mainly seperated by people hurrying home trying to catch the time and getting caught out by non-frangible questions at that point. Perhaps that final combination of sheep feeders should have had a frangible second part - which would have prevented a few falls. But how often on here do I read "no one wants frangibles..."?
I think there's also a considerable amount of people here forgetting how absolutely gnarly some of the old courses were for nasty horse falls - I rewatched an old DVD of of 'thrills and spills' the other day - that used to be considered popular entertainment - on rewatching it I'd consider it to be jaw-droppingly unpleasant.
Bar the french horse I don't think we saw any really horribly tired horses at the end. And I do think that horse bottomed out surprisingly quickly.
On the positive side - lots of people who were aiming for a clear rather than a speedy one made an absolutely great job of the course. It was the pressure of catching time that seemed to cause bulk of the nasty problems. And sadly for TM I think probably an error of judgement on an incredibly flamboyant horse.
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
So he does. Blood shows up pretty well on a grey, too. Left foreleg near the knee. Fence is the Badminton Flower Boxes no 25, so there were 6 fences left to jump after this.
Hope it's just a minor injury, but wouldn't the FJs radio this in to control?
quiteniceforacob
Well-Known Member
I was there today and struggled with it actually. The questions being asked of horses were complex. One rider said “good boy” after his horse landed which prompted lots of discussion about how everyone else seemed to land and smack.
Hazel Shannon’s horse seemed to have a bloody nostril as it cantered past us without her.
A moot point as neither of us are capable, but not sure I’d be pushing a horse of mine through such a challenging course.
Hazel Shannon’s horse seemed to have a bloody nostril as it cantered past us without her.
A moot point as neither of us are capable, but not sure I’d be pushing a horse of mine through such a challenging course.
poiuytrewq
Well-Known Member
So jealous of all of you that got to watch!
I’d definitely have paid but had to work this afternoon so by the time I’d done mine, dog walked etc it just wasn’t worth it
I’d definitely have paid but had to work this afternoon so by the time I’d done mine, dog walked etc it just wasn’t worth it
teapot
Well-Known Member
Equirating just put a stat up of 2008-2019, just over 1 in 2 starters jump clear, 54% to be precise.
I think it was a proper 5* test that exposed not only perhaps rustiness, but also that 1* to 4* level needs to change too. Eric Winter did a zoom chat with Lucinda Green last year about course design and it's WELL worth a listen/watch.
I think it was a proper 5* test that exposed not only perhaps rustiness, but also that 1* to 4* level needs to change too. Eric Winter did a zoom chat with Lucinda Green last year about course design and it's WELL worth a listen/watch.
Surbie
Well-Known Member
I found lots of the XC very difficult to watch - Nicola's fall, Swallow Springs and the total failure to check him after, and Vitorio du Montet who was struggling before that horrific fall. I wish more of the visibly struggling horses had been stopped.
That said, there were some lovely people to watch - Kylie Roddy was fab, Ros Canter and Alice Casburn. So pleased for Alice. I had a very brief chat with her at Burnham without knowing who she was and have since been rooting for her to succeed.
That said, there were some lovely people to watch - Kylie Roddy was fab, Ros Canter and Alice Casburn. So pleased for Alice. I had a very brief chat with her at Burnham without knowing who she was and have since been rooting for her to succeed.
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RachelFerd
Well-Known Member
Yep - I think the difference here was that a lot of errors we would see at Pau or Luhmuhlen are run-outs at little skinny triple brush things - rather than some of the tip-ups we saw today.
I found the Lucinda/Eric chat interesting - I think Eric is an excellent course designer and has such detailed interesting thinking behind his decisions. Sometimes I worry that Lucinda is a little bit too keen on 'the good old days' stuff - but then who can blame her when she was so good at the good old days. I still think she's a genius at understanding how horses think XC...
PipsqueakXy22
Well-Known Member
ive only seen the compilation of falls and that French one in particular is just horrific to me… poor thing was so tired he couldn’t even get up! And I’ll bet he’ll put out an apology and by next year he’ll be forgiven. I just don’t think it’s good enough surely from past mistakes the riders AND stewards will have learnt their lesson and fix this issue! If I recall the exact same thing happened to an American rider on the last fence a couple years ago because her horse was exhausted, plus it’s been happening time and time again probably since the beginning of Badminton. It’s always the same excuses that they didn’t know in the heat of the moment and in hindsight they should’ve. Maybe they need to actually start pulling riders up when necessary, in fact I don’t think I’ve ever seen a rider been pulled up in a 5* event (tho I really only watch badminton burghely and Lexington) I know it’s the show of a lifetime and adrenaline is running and all but I really do think this needs to change, by riders and show officials because although it’s only the odd one it’s horrible watching them push them to the point of pure exhaustion
Wishfilly
Well-Known Member
I can only speak for myself, and I've never said that I don't want frangibles- I don't think there should be frangibles on every fence, but I would personally be happy if they were used more on today's course- particularly on the late technical questions. To me, the first place I would put them is on that bounce- it would have caught people out who weren't riding the fence well, and prevented falls. I think the sheep feeders would have been a good place to put them too.
I don't think the horses at the end were horribly tired, but I think they were tired enough that they were making mistakes on difficult technical questions- riders had lost the adjustability, perhaps. And in some cases, possibly the riders themselves were tired and made mistakes.
I agree the field should be separated, but why can't they be separated by things that cause no/less harm to horse and rider? Time penalties, run outs, refusals, frangible pins, and yes falls, but not falls where you really feel horse or rider could have an awful injury. Those things I think are acceptable for an "error of judgement" FWIW.
I also do think the context of the event should be taken into account- that this is the first badminton in 3 years, some of the riders haven't done a single 5* in that time, I think more than usual were first timers (although equally some first timers rode safe, classy rounds).
For me, as someone who is a real fan of eventing, it wasn't something I truly enjoyed watching, at times I felt uncomfortable and it has perhaps changed my opinion a bit.
And yes, a lot of people have said they want a return to the old school, but (from my understanding) in the "old school" you had the big jumping efforts, but not the very technical questions at the end of the course as well- that, to me, was the big source of the problems. I think if you are including these big, "old style" jumps, you have to be mindful, at least, of what they take out of the horse?
Tbf, the broken bridge was spectacular, the big ditches and rails were spectacular- and they weren't what were causing the problems. But maybe they were taking something out of the horses and riders that meant having several technical questions late on wasn't the right thing?
But yes, I really enjoyed watching e.g. Felicity Collins, who I saw at Bicton last year do a nice, safe clear, with time penalties but not ridiculously slow- those were definitely the enjoyable rounds out of the ones I watched.
But equally, say, Emily King, her round was enjoyable to watch, right up until it wasn't (for me, at least).
Dunlin
Well-Known Member
I ended up going out and enjoying the weather, ditching Badminton TV for their rip off content. £20 and where is it to watch? If it's being edited then why am I paying £20 for live coverage because edited highlights is on the BBC tomorrow.
Moving on to the course. I hated the bounce, really made me feel sick watching the early ones come in so fast. I thought the Nyetimber corners was going to be a bit of a bogey but jumped quite well in the end.
I'm old(ish) and remember the golden years of Badminton. Try and get hold of the VHS from 1992 when Mary King won on King William. Mark Todd's horse died, there were SO many horse falls and William Fox Pitt pushed his exhausted horse to the end and collapsed on landing after the final fence and didn't get up for ages, sound familiar? Courses are far more technical today, I don't like the large number of corners and skinnys these days where the accuracy has to be so precise but that's how it is. Back in the 70s - 90s it was long format (steeplechase plus roads and tracks before the course) and the xcountry was huge with no frangible pins but it was more akin to something you'd see out hunting, can't say I've been tempted to 'pop' a solar panel myself.
Moving on to the course. I hated the bounce, really made me feel sick watching the early ones come in so fast. I thought the Nyetimber corners was going to be a bit of a bogey but jumped quite well in the end.
I'm old(ish) and remember the golden years of Badminton. Try and get hold of the VHS from 1992 when Mary King won on King William. Mark Todd's horse died, there were SO many horse falls and William Fox Pitt pushed his exhausted horse to the end and collapsed on landing after the final fence and didn't get up for ages, sound familiar? Courses are far more technical today, I don't like the large number of corners and skinnys these days where the accuracy has to be so precise but that's how it is. Back in the 70s - 90s it was long format (steeplechase plus roads and tracks before the course) and the xcountry was huge with no frangible pins but it was more akin to something you'd see out hunting, can't say I've been tempted to 'pop' a solar panel myself.
Michen
Well-Known Member
Piggy has said on one of her videos that she's heard Nicola is awake, remembers everything and asking about the horse etc so that' sgreat.
clinkerbuilt
Well-Known Member
Chronicle of the Horse thread on this makes interesting reading for another perspective (disapproval of the course vibes).
AShetlandBitMeOnce
Well-Known Member
Still no XC to watch on Badminton TV… not impressed. A) they managed to upload dressage in a timely manner and B) if they’re editing it then I would just wait and watch the televised highlights…
teapot
Well-Known Member
Dressage was cut into four sessions, which could be uploaded during the day, not six hours solid of HD coverage, that's a lot to upload in one go, give them a chance
BBC was never available immediately afterwards either.
Wishfilly
Well-Known Member
Agreed, but I wonder if they are editing out Nicola's fall and the hold on course? Tbf if I was solely watching the replay I wouldn't need to watch a long hold?
Patterdale
Well-Known Member
What has changed for you then? It’s far safer now than for most of your time spectating.
Toledo de Kerser was allowed to go far too fast into that bounce. Wasn’t the fence or the sport’s fault, just error of judgement.
All those who think the sport should end, how do you see that panning out for horse welfare in the long term?
Patterdale
Well-Known Member
Personally I think the trouble is that people just love complaining, and we have too many outlets to do that now with social media. There seems to be this general view in modern life that if something is in any way uncomfortable then it is unacceptable and should instantly be done away with. It’s quite a dangerous slope that society is sliding down - in my opinion.
Wishfilly
Well-Known Member
Is it fair for a horse to be punished for a rider's error in judgement?
I don't think saying in this specific context some more use of safety features at the end of the course may have been a good idea is the same as arguing for a sport to end?
ETA: Then again I really enjoyed spectating at Bicton last year and I know some people felt that was "too soft".
AShetlandBitMeOnce
Well-Known Member
Dressage was cut into four sessions, which could be uploaded during the day, not six hours solid of HD coverage, that's a lot to upload in one go, give them a chance
BBC was never available immediately afterwards either.
They could have done the same with XC as dressage though?
Admittedly patience isn’t a prominent aspect of my personality when I’m looking forward to something! ?
Patterdale
Well-Known Member
No of course not, but life isn’t fair for anyone, man or beast. It’s not fair on my horse when I put him wrong into an 80cm fence. It’s not fair on my cat when I’m late home. It’s not fair when hedgehogs get run over. It’s not fair when a dog gets told off for running away after it’s come back. But that’s life innit.
Michen
Well-Known Member
I don't think the sport should end at all, I think things should be stricter aka tired horses should be pulled up.
teapot
Well-Known Member
Not without breaking the feed - the dressage kept cutting off every session. Latest fb update:
'The Badminton Cross Country coverage will be available as soon as it is technically possible to make it available to rewatch.
Unlike the dressage sessions the cross country livestream is delivered to you in one 6 hour session and this, understandably, will take longer. We are expecting it to be available within the next few hours.
We really thank you for your patience and we really are doing everything possible to get it to you as quickly as possible.'