Badminton XC thread

[stangs]

XC folks, how experienced are stewards and fence judges at this level of competition?

Just thinking that it's not surprising that they might miss some blood on a horse who's moving at a fast pace, but any fool show be able to recognise a horse who's too tired to go on. And I appreciate that fence judging at a lower level is usually high responsibility, little training, but surely that's not the case at 5* events?

 

[Wishfilly]

No of course not, but life isn’t fair for anyone, man or beast. It’s not fair on my horse when I put him wrong into an 80cm fence. It’s not fair on my cat when I’m late home. It’s not fair when hedgehogs get run over. It’s not fair when a dog gets told off for running away after it’s come back. But that’s life innit.

I know horses do get hurt at 80/90/100 or even just out schooling but in general the stakes are lower.

Ultimately, the horses have no choice. They don't get to walk the course and make a reasoned judgment about whether they want to run that day or not (I know that's slightly facetious). So I do think doing a little bit more to protect them from rider error/tiredness is reasonable.

I don't think that's the same as saying I want the sport to end.

 

[teapot]

XC folks, how experienced are stewards and fence judges at this level of competition?

Just thinking that it's not surprising that they might miss some blood on a horse who's moving at a fast pace, but any fool show be able to recognise a horse who's too tired to go on. And I appreciate that fence judging at a lower level is usually high responsibility, little training, but surely that's not the case at 5* events?

It's less about experience, though the 5* stewards are usually well-seasoned 'pros' at it, but procedure. Say someone radioed about that french horse at fence 27 - you've got less than 90/120 seconds in reality from radioing in the issue, to decision being made, to recieve a reply, to then red flag someone, by which point that horse could be approaching the last fence...

Not saying it's right or wrong, but the reality of stopping someone that close to home is a lot harder than being at fence 14.

 

[Chianti]

What has changed for you then? It’s far safer now than for most of your time spectating.

Toledo de Kerser was allowed to go far too fast into that bounce. Wasn’t the fence or the sport’s fault, just error of judgement.

All those who think the sport should end, how do you see that panning out for horse welfare in the long term?

I don't think that the sport should end but we have to be aware that times have changed and the public can very quickly become upset if they think that horses are in danger because of what we're making them do. Riding and competing can only continue as long as it's socially acceptable- many activities involving animals have disappeared because society decided that they didn't want them to happen. It must be possible to design a course where fewer horses fall and tired horses or horses that are bleeding should be stopped.

 

[HashRouge]

No of course not, but life isn’t fair for anyone, man or beast. It’s not fair on my horse when I put him wrong into an 80cm fence. It’s not fair on my cat when I’m late home. It’s not fair when hedgehogs get run over. It’s not fair when a dog gets told off for running away after it’s come back. But that’s life innit.

I think the "life's not fair" argument is a dreadful reason for not trying to improve horse welfare. As Michen says, things like over-tired horses being pulled up could make a big difference.

 

[Patterdale]

I know horses do get hurt at 80/90/100 or even just out schooling but in general the stakes are lower.

Ultimately, the horses have no choice. They don't get to walk the course and make a reasoned judgment about whether they want to run that day or not (I know that's slightly facetious). So I do think doing a little bit more to protect them from rider error/tiredness is reasonable.

I don't think that's the same as saying I want the sport to end.

Statements like this made publicly by riders are exactly the ammunition that drives the agendas of those who do want the sport to end.

No extra measures could have stopped that horse from being run too fast into that fence. It was an error of judgement.

 

[Patterdale]

I think the "life's not fair" argument is a dreadful reason for not trying to improve horse welfare. As Michen says, things like over-tired horses being pulled up could make a big difference.

We weren’t talking about that. It was about Toledo de Kerser.

 

[stangs]

I don't think that the sport should end but we have to be aware that times have changed and the public can very quickly become upset if they think that horses are in danger because of what we're making them do. Riding and competing can only continue as long as it's socially acceptable- many activities involving animals have disappeared because society decided that they didn't want them to happen. It must be possible to design a course where fewer horses fall and tired horses or horses that are bleeding should be stopped.

Agree, but I will just add it's a shame that the parts of the competitive world only care about their animal's welfare if it looks bad to an outsider's eye - and even more of a shame that any change comes from public outcry, rather than people on the inside fighting to improve things.

 

[Rowreach]

No of course not, but life isn’t fair for anyone, man or beast. It’s not fair on my horse when I put him wrong into an 80cm fence. It’s not fair on my cat when I’m late home. It’s not fair when hedgehogs get run over. It’s not fair when a dog gets told off for running away after it’s come back. But that’s life innit.

That’s a spurious argument. Some things are more controllable than others. It’s more achievable to make 5* eventing safer for horse and rider than to prevent hedgehogs getting run over.

Innit ?

 

[Lexi_]

XC folks, how experienced are stewards and fence judges at this level of competition?

Just thinking that it's not surprising that they might miss some blood on a horse who's moving at a fast pace, but any fool show be able to recognise a horse who's too tired to go on. And I appreciate that fence judging at a lower level is usually high responsibility, little training, but surely that's not the case at 5* events?

From what I’ve heard about most of the Badminton FJs, they wouldn’t do many other events.

Either way, the FJ can’t do anything except radio any concerns through to Control - they pass it onto the TA/TD/ground jury etc and that’s where the decision gets made.

Must admit I didn’t particularly notice the French horse until the fall but unless it was visibly exhausted a couple of fences out, there really is minimal opportunity to make a decision, communicate it and then get the horse pulled up.

 

[Patterdale]

That’s a spurious argument. Some things are more controllable than others. It’s more achievable to make 5* eventing safer for horse and rider than to prevent hedgehogs getting run over.

Innit ?

Oh FFS this was clearly in relation to a comment about Toledo de Kerser’s fall.

 

[Laafet]

XC folks, how experienced are stewards and fence judges at this level of competition?

Just thinking that it's not surprising that they might miss some blood on a horse who's moving at a fast pace, but any fool show be able to recognise a horse who's too tired to go on. And I appreciate that fence judging at a lower level is usually high responsibility, little training, but surely that's not the case at 5* events?

I thought you had to be very experienced but a work colleague recently asked me where I did my BE volunteering as they are Fence Judging at Burghley this year and had been told they had to get some practice in - they've never done it before. They are related a the person that usually does it so taking their spot, that was how they got in.

 

[Michen]

From what I’ve heard about most of the Badminton FJs, they wouldn’t do many other events.

Either way, the FJ can’t do anything except radio any concerns through to Control - they pass it onto the TA/TD/ground jury etc.

Must admit I didn’t particularly notice the French horse until the fall but unless it was visibly exhausted a couple of fences out, there really is minimal opportunity to make a decision, communicate it and then get the horse pulled up.

I pulled up a horse at an UA event, but I can't even remember how it happened officially- as in who said yes pull them up on the radio. Me and my co fence judge could see the few fences before hours and watched it scrape over and clearly exhausted, I spoke into the radio and said this horse needs pulling up they are about to have an accident and was immediately told yes, pull them up.

The other fence judges had been making "looking tired" "scrambled over" comments but no one said this horse needs stopping until it got to our fence, and really it should have been stopped several fences previously.

 

[Wishfilly]

Statements like this made publicly by riders are exactly the ammunition that drives the agendas of those who do want the sport to end.

No extra measures could have stopped that horse from being run too fast into that fence. It was an error of judgement.

If the bounces had been frangible, would he have fallen, though? He'd have still had penalties, it would still have influenced his result.

FWIW, I think the thing that's most likely to cause the sport to end is a horse or rider death. That's the sort of thing that would get organised public campaigns, sponsors pulling out, insurance going through the roof etc etc.

I think making the sport a bit safer is what preserves it.

I also think putting so many technical questions at the end of the course this year was perhaps an error in judgement on the part of the course designer. I can't believe the course was designed with the intention of causing several serious falls late on to riders who had otherwise had good rounds.

Equally, I do think the levels below need to be made a true preparation for 5* (particularly advanced one day events that are "badminton prep").

 

[Michen]

If the bounces had been frangible, would he have fallen, though? He'd have still had penalties, it would still have influenced his result.

FWIW, I think the thing that's most likely to cause the sport to end is a horse or rider death. That's the sort of thing that would get organised public campaigns, sponsors pulling out, insurance going through the roof etc etc.

I think making the sport a bit safer is what preserves it.

I also think putting so many technical questions at the end of the course this year was perhaps an error in judgement on the part of the course designer. I can't believe the course was designed with the intention of causing several serious falls late on to riders who had otherwise had good rounds.

Equally, I do think the levels below need to be made a true preparation for 5* (particularly advanced one day events that are "badminton prep").

There have been plenty of horses deaths and it has not ended the sport.

 

[Chianti]

Agree, but I will just add it's a shame that the parts of the competitive world only care about their animal's welfare if it looks bad to an outsider's eye - and even more of a shame that any change comes from public outcry, rather than people on the inside fighting to improve things.

Exactly. Even in the adrenalin rush of going round badminton you surely must feel that your horse is tired and so pull it up? Just because a sport or individual event has always been run in a certain way that doesn't mean it can't be changed. I don't think eventing has seen the negative press that say dressage has but that doesn't mean that the spot light can't turn onto it. The next Olympics will be very interesting to see if the welfare of the horses is given the priority needed.

 

[Lexi_]

There were plenty of rider deaths too at one point and that didn’t end things either, although it led to a lot of safety improvements.

 

[Wishfilly]

I probably phrased my post about horse and rider deaths badly- what I mean is, if we are really worried about the sport of eventing being changed beyond recognition or ending (which I don't think is likely, by the way) a really high profile horse or rider death (or a spate of them) could be a catalyst for that.

I don't think, right now, most non-horsey members of the public care about eventing that much. But if it were brought to their attention in a really negative way, then that could seriously impact the sport.

FWIW, I think things have changed even since the 90s/00s, which I believe is when most of the rider deaths that caused major safety improvements to be brought in happened.

 

[MuddyMonster]

Still no XC to watch on Badminton TV… not impressed. A) they managed to upload dressage in a timely manner and B) if they’re editing it then I would just wait and watch the televised highlights…

I think the difference is that by purchasing, the option to watch it live is there rather than just the condensed version offering on BBC (as well as footage from the whole event)

It is over 6 hours of footage to upload whereas dressage was much smaller chunks - it doesn't seem unreasonable even if not available until the next day IMHO.

The BBC red button footage was never available immediately after it was first shown in precious years either.

I think we're all just used to having things available immediately, if not sooner!

 

[shortstuff99]

Actually I don't think a pin would have stopped Tom's fall. The horse was going so quick and big he more fell over his own feet trying to clear it. I think that would've happened even if the fence had collapsed.

 

[LEC]

The bounce fence was set up at vale view last week on sloping ground mocking up the Badminton version. The riders knew what was coming weeks in advance before they even set foot on the course. The terrain and intensity adds a lot to a course but the individual components had been practiced by a fair few.

 

[pistolpete]

 

[SlinkyMinxy]

I think the difference is that by purchasing, the option to watch it live is there rather than just the condensed version offering on BBC (as well as footage from the whole event)

It is over 6 hours of footage to upload whereas dressage was much smaller chunks - it doesn't seem unreasonable even if not available until the next day IMHO.

The BBC red button footage was never available immediately after it was first shown in precious years either.

I think we're all just used to having things available immediately, if not sooner!

But at least there was the option of recording the red button footage and watching it at a more convenient time. I paid my subscription this year but couldn't watch most of it live as I was busy and won't be able to see it now before the show-jumping and the final results are out. If I'd known that, I wouldn't have bothered to pay.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Statements like this made publicly by riders are exactly the ammunition that drives the agendas of those who do want the sport to end.

So you'd prefer riders who are airing views about the falls and some instances of poor riding that they have seen at a major event to shut up, so that your sport can continue?

Times change. I'm no longer as comfortable seeing horses risk their all for human entertainment as I was. I am not campaigning for the sport to end, just stating that I'm not sure whether I enjoy it any more.

I've FJ'd, dressage scribed and time kept for eventing on and off for many years.

 

[Kadastorm]

I’m only up to Bens fall on that YouTube video and already some sickening falls ? truly hope Nicola and Dublin recover ok and that everyone else is feeling ok. Very scary falls there! Almost glad I didn’t pay to watch live as I don’t know if I would have managed it!

 

[TPO]

That was sickening. So many crunched necks ? Couldn't watch it all and tbh didn't know what I'd clicked on, I thought it was highlights.

Had been a fan of Mollie Summmerland but didn't like how heavy handed she was with the whip at the water. Although I'll never ride 5* so undoubtedly shouldn't have an opinion

It seems very contradictory to claim to love, or at least hopefully respect, horses and then put them into those dangerous predicaments. Only sheer luck that a horse or rider wasn't killed today. Very sad and distressing state of affairs

 

[Chianti]

Just watched the video of the falls and it made me feel quite sick. Some of those falls were horrendous. Also - why are so many riders smacking their horses after they have refused and are then cantering away from the jump when they have jumped it on a second attempt? Is this meant to be a punishment or a teaching aid?

 

[pistolpete]

Wasn’t sure whether to share. I was pretty horrified too.

 

[Rowreach]

Oh FFS this was clearly in relation to a comment about Toledo de Kerser’s fall.

No, upthread I quoted you twice saying similar things.

 

[MuddyMonster]

But at least there was the option of recording the red button footage and watching it at a more convenient time. I paid my subscription this year but couldn't watch most of it live as I was busy and won't be able to see it now before the show-jumping and the final results are out. If I'd known that, I wouldn't have bothered to pay.

I've never had the option to record the red button so maybe I'm just used to this ??‍

I still think for less than £5 a day to watch 5 days of top class international competition is good value, even though I know I won't be able to catch up with XC before SJ is aired tomorrow (and I haven't seen all the dressage). I'll just stay away from FB etc before I've had the chance to view it tomorrow evening so the results aren't spoilt.