Badminton XC thread

[Fred66]

On the Horse Falls there appear to have been 7 and with the exception of PiPad Funnell they were all towards the end of the course. This smacks of the questions at the end being too technical for tired horses and possibly course builders need to look at what combinations they use towards the end.

 

[Malibu_Stacy]

London 52 accepted, so all of top 10 will be jumping.

 

[LEC]

I think the roll tops at the end will be changed. They were an innocuous fence but I think it was piggy who said they sucked you in a lot more than you expected. Just the use of terrain and I would say riders being slightly complacent on a rounded profile on a tired horse. All left a leg. Funnily enough the house after pagoda riders respected a lot more and rode it better.
hazel Shannons was insane, horse just shrank as the ditch wasn’t very big. They have won 3 x 5* as well…..
The baskets interested me the most, I walked it and again a fence you wouldn’t expect to cause issues but again horses left a toe or leg. Ground line? The topline wasn’t clear enough? Who knows but they will go back and watch the footage to make improvements.
Maximes horse looked similar at Pau but came out fine on SJ and didn’t tip up. I bet we see if come out fitter next time just like David Doel did with his horses after his fitness programme showed up clear issues at Bicton 4*. I have read a lot which said Maximes horse was fine 2 from home but they got really weary. I guess you hope you can nurse it home.
There is a big conundrum. The riding at GR badminton was pretty dire in places but it’s 90/100 so a scopey horse gets away with it. 5* needs to test and some of the riders failed that today with mistakes.

 

[Supertrooper]

Having now watched some of the falls and frankly near misses…….

I’m definitely generally not an OT fan but as he was dangling around the horses neck he had a pretty good view of his back legs and he did also look under. It was fairly obvious as soon as the horse galloped away that he was sound and he’s been accepted today so all was ok

More upsetting I feel was horse at final fence (that’s as far as I watched tbh) who was obviously tired and I’d of hoped things would have been learnt from the last time a tired horse fell there!!

 

[Steerpike]

Same here. I generally quite like Oli, but I found that very uncomfortable watching and I cannot believe that the horse was able to complete the course after that. And frankly, I don't think he should have been expected to.

The problem is though, that when horses are your business, you do see and treat them differently. I'm not saying that these top professionals don't treat their horses well, btw, but ultimately it is their job and to a certain extent horse welfare will always be sacrificed slightly to that.

Horses are my business and I do treat them as my own, I am very lucky to have an owner who has and will always put the horses welfare first.

 

[fankino04]

Can't say Alexander Bragg came across well in that compilation either...

I used to really like him, he was entertaining to watch ride across courses ( very like Tim and jonelle) and always came across well in interviews but that clip has really put me off him, I'm sure there was a flash of anger that he had come off and looked like he was about to sock the horse in the mouth with the bit but stopped himself as in public, obviously could be totally misreading that and of course emotions run high in situations like that but that's the way I read what I saw.

 

[Wishfilly]

I find it even more upsetting to see posts about a "fair course" and "love the sport" continuing when it's only by sheer luck that there were no deaths. There were sickening falls and yet, just like the Grand National, it's expected that horses will fall, get hurt or worse and "that's the nature of the sport".

There's a few well shared fb posts doing the rounds about how naysayers don't have a clue, how great badders was/is and with a reply in the comment section thats its uninformed obese people on armchairs who can't clear an 80 fence spouting rubbish. With the usual dose of "these event horses will be looked after like royalty and better than any of the naysayers horses" tripe.

As if you need to get to 5* to have any empathy for the horses or an understanding of horsemanship and even if that was the case apparently that gets shelved when it comes to the crunch. Great shop front for the sport to vilify anyone concerned about equine welfare.

Oh it's the first proper 5* in 3yrs, oh it's this, oh it's that. Must have missed the part where the horses signed up to put their necks on the line in the name of sport ? There are going to be a lot of very sore, if not permanently damaged, horses today but it's an amazing sport ya know...

Interestingly, Laura Collett on her facebook post described it as the toughest XC track she has ever seen. And I felt from Piggy's comentary yesterday, that she felt it was a very tough test.

I've seen some similar posts, and I think people need to remember that these big events wouldn't happen without the spectators/fans so our opinions do hold weight too.

 

[fetlock]

I used to really like him, he was entertaining to watch ride across courses ( very like Tim and jonelle) and always came across well in interviews but that clip has really put me off him, I'm sure there was a flash of anger that he had come off and looked like he was about to sock the horse in the mouth with the bit but stopped himself as in public, obviously could be totally misreading that and of course emotions run high in situations like that but that's the way I read what I saw.

From his FB page just now

 

[OrangeAndLemon]

I'm going to give OT the benefit of the doubt. I trust he's a good horseman who would have felt any issue from the jump and would have pulled his horse up.

I saw him at Bramham when he felt something wrong before a fence, immediately stopped, jumped off while the horse was still moving and was shouting for the horse ambulance to be brought right up to the horse, and stayed with the horse to make sure it was slowly & safely loaded and taken back for checks.

 

[Supertrooper]

Interestingly, Laura Collett on her facebook post described it as the toughest XC track she has ever seen. And I felt from Piggy's comentary yesterday, that she felt it was a very tough test.

I've seen some similar posts, and I think people need to remember that these big events wouldn't happen without the spectators/fans so our opinions do hold weight too.

I watched Piggy’s clip post XC and I thought the same, she was definitely saying it was a very tough test

 

[Supertrooper]

From his FB page just now


View attachment 92257

Not a brilliant response

 

[Wishfilly]

On the Horse Falls there appear to have been 7 and with the exception of PiPad Funnell they were all towards the end of the course. This smacks of the questions at the end being too technical for tired horses and possibly course builders need to look at what combinations they use towards the end.

Yes, I think those fences placed earlier in the course wouldn't have necessarily caused the same issues. I'm not saying that the last fences should all be straight forward, but perhaps the type of problem they would cause needs to be considered?

 

[LEC]

Yes, I think those fences placed earlier in the course wouldn't have necessarily caused the same issues. I'm not saying that the last fences should all be straight forward, but perhaps the type of problem they would cause needs to be considered?

The whole point of having these questions is to test the riders ability to balance the horse when it’s tired and ride appropriately. The questions were all appropriate for their place in the course. The baskets as I have mentioned will be very likely reviewed. The roll tops probably wont as a fence later the riders all rode tired horses very well at a technical fence as they all respected it.

 

[fetlock]

Update on Nicola

https://nicolawilsoneventing.co.uk/...eV34J2O68lo8QDN5vcLhLCfer21XmEkhbG19FYjItjURE

 

[Supertrooper]

Update on Nicola

https://nicolawilsoneventing.co.uk/...eV34J2O68lo8QDN5vcLhLCfer21XmEkhbG19FYjItjURE

View attachment 92262

I’m so glad she’s awake and this sounds promising

 

[scats]

Update on Nicola

https://nicolawilsoneventing.co.uk/...eV34J2O68lo8QDN5vcLhLCfer21XmEkhbG19FYjItjURE

View attachment 92262

Thank god for that. She was absolutely out cold after that fall.

 

[DirectorFury]

Having looked at the numbers of fallers etc I guess this year wasn't that exceptional. I don't remember seeing so many rotationals or so many falls where I was surprised that the horse got back up and walked off sound but I guess the 2 year gap has made my memory hazy. It was still uncomfortable viewing.

I've no appetite to go hunting for the footage of the falls but it'd be interesting to see the horse and rider falls per year broken down into a) rotationals and b) type of fence (solid or pinned).

 

[Supertrooper]

So actually 2018 was worse in a way, can’t remember that far back unfortunately ??

 

[Lexi_]

Those 2018 figures are surprising! I don’t really remember much about that year’s event.

 

[fetlock]

So actually 2018 was worse in a way, can’t remember that far back unfortunately ??

If you have the stomach for it, you may find it on Youtube.
The "best falls and refusal" person, who posted this years I saw also did one for 2016, so may have done it for all the years inbetween. Re the 2016 footage, most of the falls I think were upon landing after the footbridge, and no rotational ones.

Edited: just gone looking and they have videos for 2016, 2017 and 2019 but none for 2018.

 

[Supertrooper]

Would be great if anyone can recall that far back

 

[teapot]

Those 2018 figures are surprising! I don’t really remember much about that year’s event.

Results by fence for 2018 can found on this page:

https://www.badminton-horse.co.uk/cross-country-results-2018/

 

[DirectorFury]

The 2018 fence-by-fence results are here: https://www.badminton-horse.co.uk/cross-country-fence-analysis-2018/ (The code "HZ" means horse fall)
I guess the biggest difference is that, aside from Piggy French, all of the horse fallers weren't the people right at the top of the sport, unlike yesterday.

 

[DirectorFury]

If you have the stomach for it, you may find it on Youtube.
The "best falls and refusal" person, who posted this years I saw also did one for 2016, so may have done it for all the years inbetween. Re the 2016 footage, most of the falls I think were upon landing after the footbridge, and no rotational ones.

Edited: just gone looking and they have videos for 2016, 2017 and 2019 but none for 2018.

I've just had a look on Youtube and there's pretty much no footage/clips from BHT 2018 on there. The plus side of paying for Badminton TV is that the full 2018 cross country should be on there so I'll have a look later.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

I find it even more upsetting to see posts about a "fair course" and "love the sport" continuing when it's only by sheer luck that there were no deaths. There were sickening falls and yet, just like the Grand National, it's expected that horses will fall, get hurt or worse and "that's the nature of the sport".

There's a few well shared fb posts doing the rounds about how naysayers don't have a clue, how great badders was/is and with a reply in the comment section thats its uninformed obese people on armchairs who can't clear an 80 fence spouting rubbish. With the usual dose of "these event horses will be looked after like royalty and better than any of the naysayers horses" tripe.

As if you need to get to 5* to have any empathy for the horses or an understanding of horsemanship and even if that was the case apparently that gets shelved when it comes to the crunch. Great shop front for the sport to vilify anyone concerned about equine welfare.

Oh it's the first proper 5* in 3yrs, oh it's this, oh it's that. Must have missed the part where the horses signed up to put their necks on the line in the name of sport ? There are going to be a lot of very sore, if not permanently damaged, horses today but it's an amazing sport ya know...

I understand this point of view and I certainly don't dismiss it as obese fluffy bunny cluelessness. Nor that top level horses are treated well all the time. I think people expressing concerns about the ethics of horse sport have a perfectly valid perspective on it. I admit I am conflicted about this. But then I think human relationships with animals in general is a rabbit warren of contradictions. I love animals and I love meat. I love horses, I love competitive sport and I particularly love competitive horse sport. I also see that horse sport is ethically questionable. But then so is raising animals for slaughter, live export of animals, animals used in science/ medicine/clothing. That train of thought takes you to a PETA view of the world in which no animal should ever be exploited in the interests of humans. Unless you go there, then you are essentially deciding that it is about where you - personally - draw the line. Plant based diet? Vegetarianism? Lab grown meat? Improved welfare standards in the meal industry? Banning certain practices in horse sport and training? Banning high level horse sport? Banning all horse sport? Banning all horse riding?

Of course, top pros don't treat their animals like pets - they are athletes, depended on to make a living and a times pushed to extremes. But I also think horses can't perform well if they are unhealthy or mentally overwhelmed. Especially in eventing where tension would show up in dressage. I don't think a horse becomes a top eventer without natural courage/boldness and without trust in their rider - so relationships between horse and rider develop over time. Lottie has super-happy ears, pricked and alert and keen, when we go out. I am convinced she enjoys it. I don't think that is anthropomorphism. She is very expressive about what she does and does not like.

I am also unsure about what the unintended consequences would be of stopping using horses for jobs that they have not consented to- including in sport- and leaving them purely as pets/leisure. People have said that the loss of horses in working roles has led to a disconnect between horse and human and therefore huge ignorance among horse owners and a lowering of standards of horse welfare due to that ignorance. I have huge gaps in my knowlege and understanding but even I am gobsmacked at how ignorant many horse owners are about the basics of horse behaviour. Experts who can educate others become experts because they dedicate their lives to understanding and training horses. I am not sure going even further down that road of horse being pets only would help them at a population level. And if they are not going to be pets but some will be athletes, to separate the best from the rest is always going to need them to perform at very high levels. Which will always put them at risk of injury or exhaustion.

At the end of the day, if I were able to choose what kind of horse I'd come back in a future life, I think I could do a lot worse than to come back as a Badminton horse.

 

[clinkerbuilt]

So, I'm catching up the middle section of yesterday's xc and in the replay Nicola Wilson's fall is edited out but the long hold is not (presumably for all the chat/atmos?!) I do wonder whether the "stable" report actually accommodates some fairly serious injury there which thankfully she has survived.

 

[PipsqueakXy22]

From his FB page just now


View attachment 92257

pretty standard response isn’t it? Not sure how this justifies being harsh with the horse on course, does getting the best attention (as should be expected of a horse having just gone round a 5* course) justify elbowing it out of anger

 

[clinkerbuilt]

pretty standard response isn’t it? Not sure how this justifies being harsh with the horse on course, does getting the best attention (as should be expected of a horse having just gone round a 5* course) justify elbowing it out of anger

I did not like the look of his actions at all, but I do think the elbow was a response to the horse hustling forward downhill a bit fast on leaving the track. Definitely unpleasant, but you can see how they can present it as about safety.

 

[fetlock]

The general quality of this SJ livestream is pants. It's knocking me dizzy.

 

[PipsqueakXy22]

I don’t expect top level riders to treat their horses like pets they are competition horses after all, and like for instance Oliver Townends blip with Swallow springs I can understand why he would spur him on as they are against a clock, but I also feel like there are some things that are so easily avoidable, like pulling up an exhausted horse or not punching your horse because you fell off… and actually when I think about it e of my favourite event riders are Pippa funnel and piggy French, I don’t believe I have ever seen him be mean or angry to their horses…? They only use the whip when necessary, yes sometimes a few smacks but not over the top, aren’t afraid to retire like Pippa did with hers yesterday, and whenever they fall off they have a laugh give the horse a pet and make sure they’re ok. These two also won Badminton and Budghely in 2019. So I think just goes to show you can be respectful of your horses and still be successful.