Badminton XC!

Hopefully they will introduce a whip rule. They could look at a blood rule too, in relation to bits. Hopefully something positive will come out of this.

I'd say honey is right about the Badminton organisers. They dodged a bullet in the end
 
Its an awful insight for anyone unfamiliar with the sport, to know that this is how the world's number one treats his horses, and that his team placing will likely be safe.

Awful sportsmanship from OT, no real apology, complete arrogance in the face of his warning from the ground jury, and slamming the skill of the winner as it was due to the horse 'being a freak of nature'.

I don't think there's another British rider that I've disliked so much.
 
I felt it was very rude to call Jonelles horse a freak of nature actually - he could have just said she had luck on her side if he didn’t want to out and out congratulate her.


Last year at badminton Eilsa Wallace got a yellow card for abuse of horse/pressing an exhausted horse - does anyone know what happened? Or a video of her round?
 
only_me said:
I felt it was very rude to call Jonelles horse a freak of nature actually - he could have just said she had luck on her side if he didn’t want to out and out congratulate her.


Last year at badminton Eilsa Wallace got a yellow card for abuse of horse/pressing an exhausted horse - does anyone know what happened? Or a video of her round?
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Didn't that fall at the last fence or very near the end, it should have been pulled up or stopped before it fell, whereas Oli "got away" with pushing his tired horses although they were not that tired they looked in danger of falling so could not be stopped, the pushing was him trying to get near the time because of the big money, not nursing them home as he tried to imply.
 
only_me said:
I felt it was very rude to call Jonelles horse a freak of nature actually - he could have just said she had luck on her side if he didn’t want to out and out congratulate her.


Last year at badminton Eilsa Wallace got a yellow card for abuse of horse/pressing an exhausted horse - does anyone know what happened? Or a video of her round?
Click to expand...

I'm actually rewatching 2017 right now, if she's the one I'm thinking of she ran the horse into the ground and it fell at the last fence due to how tired it was. Rider threw a bit of a tantrum, hit her fists off the ground and walked away from the horse leaving horse stood blowing with the grooms - Harry Meade was commentating and I think he actually makes a comment about how it needs to be kept moving. Think she also put something on social media that caused controversy due to how she was riding/how she warmed the horse up/some sort of training method. Big black horse, American rider?
 
only_me said:
I felt it was very rude to call Jonelles horse a freak of nature actually - he could have just said she had luck on her side if he didn’t want to out and out congratulate her.


Last year at badminton Eilsa Wallace got a yellow card for abuse of horse/pressing an exhausted horse - does anyone know what happened? Or a video of her round?
Click to expand...

All I know about it is that the horse was exhausted and she pushed it on. I didn't see it. But I believe she took responsibility and apologised straight afterwards
 
be positive said:
Didn't that fall at the last fence or very near the end, it should have been pulled up or stopped before it fell, whereas Oli "got away" with pushing his tired horses although they were not that tired they looked in danger of falling so could not be stopped, the pushing was him trying to get near the time because of the big money, not nursing them home as he tried to imply.
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Oh yes, I remember now. Horse fell in the main arena, was absolutely on its knees. Last fence, hurt near fore. Video is on YouTube if google badminton falls 2017, about 6.15 in. A very clearly exhausted horse not being looked after either.
 
sasquatch said:
I'm actually rewatching 2017 right now, if she's the one I'm thinking of she ran the horse into the ground and it fell at the last fence due to how tired it was. Rider threw a bit of a tantrum, hit her fists off the ground and walked away from the horse leaving horse stood blowing with the grooms - Harry Meade was commentating and I think he actually makes a comment about how it needs to be kept moving. Think she also put something on social media that caused controversy due to how she was riding/how she warmed the horse up/some sort of training method. Big black horse, American rider?
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Yes, just watched her fall. That was a clear exhaustion, and a rider tantrum even though fall completely her fault (if Riding an exhausted horse, at least shorten Reins to help support) and then just leaving her horse stood there.
That is a case for outcry, as is the USA rider with the horrid bit/blood, in comparison Oli just looked a bit over use of whip but horses weren’t battered to finish.

I think oli has been told off with a warning, ground jury were there and saw it was enough for a warning but not bad enough for a card - I agree. He wasn’t beating the horse up, or excessively pushing an exhausted horse. That should be enough without the social media witch hunt imo.

Although his statement and interview did him no favours. I still don’t think the hatred online is justified though, and is just plain horrible.
 
Having recorded the BBC footage today as I was out and watched the SJ (and paused it) Ollie appears to give the finger twice on completion of his first SJ round. That's pretty inappropriate too really isn't it?

I do think it's pretty bad that apparently he go fined for whip use at Kelsall two weeks ago and then have issues again, and him still think he is clearly in the right.
 
AdorableAlice said:
The last sentence on the Telegraph article says 'it is unlikely the whip furore will affect Townend's inclusion on the British Team.

Personally I think it should, and it would serve as a very big reminder to him that he is only as good as his horses. Of course he could compete as an individual but being barred from the Team based on his welfare standards would be a decent kick in the rollocks for him. But would be unfair on the owners who plough the money in.
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I watched OT on both of his horses today show jumping. After the first horse jumped clear, there was a lot of arm waving to indicate how good he was, but not a pat, or acknowledgement of the horse. Such a contrast to Gemma tattersall who was at pains after her clear to show how much it was the horse. THIS is what gets my goat. Horses giving their all, possibly to their detriment further on in their careers, and the riders not seeming to realise that, actually, they couldn't win without the horse underneath them. You see it a lot with jockeys too, and it really annoys me.
 
A lot of the riders were saying how tough it was yesterday, the going was bad and that the time was tight so I just looked at last years results to compare, only 2 got round within the time last year, MJ and Tim Price, Arctic Soul had 4.4 in 2017 and exactly the same penalties this year, several other well placed combinations were faster this time, possibly a years more experience under their belts allowing them to go faster but it certainly couldn't have been as bad as implied, there were more finishers and 1 less that failed to come forward to SJ.
 
only_me said:
Yes, just watched her fall. That was a clear exhaustion, and a rider tantrum even though fall completely her fault (if Riding an exhausted horse, at least shorten Reins to help support) and then just leaving her horse stood there.
That is a case for outcry, as is the USA rider with the horrid bit/blood, in comparison Oli just looked a bit over use of whip but horses weren’t battered to finish.

I think oli has been told off with a warning, ground jury were there and saw it was enough for a warning but not bad enough for a card - I agree. He wasn’t beating the horse up, or excessively pushing an exhausted horse. That should be enough without the social media witch hunt imo.

Although his statement and interview did him no favours. I still don’t think the hatred online is justified though, and is just plain horrible.
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Some of the riding at the Olympics was arguably horrific as well.

Oli didn't ride 'pretty', he rode to win and he did get very whip happy, but he certainly was nowhere near as bad as Ben Maher pulling his horse over after a refusal or Penelope Leprevost and I hope no one condemning Oli isn't a fan of either of those two (and this is before we think of those many, many dressage riders). Even at the Olympics, we saw serious concerns raised with whip and blood rules and we saw some horrific displays of riding by those who were meant to be at the top level.

I also think there was a big difference between how Oli's horses came in, tired but still jumping cleanly, compared to Elisa Warren's. There were definitely other horses who finished as tired, Wii Limbo is the most obvious one that springs to mind, even Arctic Soul came in tired according to Gemma. Aoife Clarke, who although she didn't compete this year, is another who springs to mind as being an 'ugly' rider sometimes.

Would I ever send a horse to Oli? No, because I hope if I ever have a horse capable of going to that level, I will be the one taking it there.
 
The point is though, which I think Scotty made well that you might hit a horse once to see if it picks up, but it rarely makes a difference on a tired horse compared to trying to cajole and carry them home. On none of the smacks did class move away from the stick, so continuing to use it was pointless.

yes other horses came in tired, but they weren't struck several times, when tired well away from fences or approaching the arena to the finish.

I have never liked watching Ollie try and get the time regardless of the horse under him.
 
Wasn't impressed with Ollies reaction after his clear sj round he did eventually pat the horse but his first priority was to gesture at the crowd and camera not really helping himself. Whereas nearly all the other riders even those who had fences down praised their horse.

Imagine if he hadn't knocked fences down on the grey and finished on the same score as Jonelle but lost the grand slam due to being slower xc?

His interview was poor as well may be time to get a pr person as world number one?
 
Those people saying that others had tired horses and mentioning Ben Mayer and the women with the horse with bleeding mouth due to horrendous bit and nose and. Yes all those things are wrong but that does not justify what Oliver Townend did.
I'm no fan of eventing but none of the other riders hit their horses like he did.
If his horses were that exhausted he should have pulled up.
Not beaten them.
Disgusting show of greed and arrogence.
 
mule said:
Hopefully they will introduce a whip rule. They could look at a blood rule too, in relation to bits. Hopefully something positive will come out of this.

I'd say honey is right about the Badminton organisers. They dodged a bullet in the end
Click to expand...

There are whip rules: Article 243, Section 2.2 in the FEI 2018 Jumping Rules.

2.2. Excessive use of the whip
• The whip may not be used to vent an Athlete’s temper. Such use is always excessive;
• The use of a whip on a Horse’s head is always excessive use;
• A Horse should never be hit more than three times in a row. If a Horse’s skin is broken, it is always considered
excessive use of the whip;
• The whip is not to be used after Elimination;
An Athlete identified as misusing or excessively using the whip will be disqualified and may be fined at the discretion
of the Ground Jury.

There are also rules about blood in the mouth. I agree there should be rules on bitting.

As someone who has only ever done an 80T I tend to avoid these sorts of debates as I feel that I just have no clue what riding at that level is like and you can't always see whether it is a 'wake up' tap or a hard whack.

BUT if there are rules, they should be enforced. OT broke the no more than 3 in a row rule. And the blood in the mouth rules also appear not be overlooked with respect to Marilyn Little.

On a more general note, there are quiet, sympathetic riders and there are bullish, heavy handed ones. There are ones who bit up and ones who don't. There are dressage horses who are trained in rollkur and ones who aren't. It is clear this is a simple choice as to how to train and ride and you can get to the very top of the sport with fantastic all-round quiet horsemanship. Think Pius Schwizer, Michael Jung, Charlotte du Jardin.

I think if rules were very strictly enforced you'd see a lot less 'winning ugly'.
 
Well did he .
That rule is designed To cover excessive use of the whip for disobedience for instance if your horse stops .
If you watch Ollie it looks to me he was waving the whip like a jockey does at the horse part of the time then using the whip threeish Times .
I agree that ride was at the very very limit of what’s acceptable I think we can be sure the horses where not in any marked in any way .
I think on bitting we need to be very very careful about limiting breaks on the xc .
Before everybody gets in a sweat it would do well to dwell on the damage that can be done to a strong horse in snaffle and the safety of the riders ,jumping a strong keen horse xc is no joke at the higher level .
And there where as many ugly moments with lightly bitted horses .
My advanced horse was frightenly strong at a three day the steeplechase wound her up and you needed some breaks to head into those advanced combinations with any degree of control.
In a strong set up that suited her she was rideable and I needed not to apply the brakes as often or as strongly you will see many strong horses going happily in strong bits when the balance of control between the horse and the rider is right for that team .
I also don’t understand the sweat up some people are in over Olis interview sure I think he could have been more gracious about Jonelles horse ( who was the best horse over the three days ) but like I said he is what he is hes well trained now at speaking to media but his emotions where showing in that interview .
We are too used to gushing niceness on the telly it but it’s not real life at that level you saw a flash of what goes on in the mind of a driven type A ruthless competitor in that interview ,in my view much more honest that’s a lot you see .
he’s a professional and had just failed to win a huge sum of money his mask was down a bit .
 
All good points GS which I why I tend to avoid being too judgemental. It's a world away from what I do. But I think rules are overlooked in lots of sports as I guess money talks.

His interview was forgivable in the circumstances. He did himself no favours in the popularity stakes but he was under enormous pressure and the disappointment must have been overwhelming.
 
The fact that other riders have done wrong does not excuse the way Oli rode. There is no excuse from what I saw. The bay had to make a real effort at the Vicarage V and for his troubles he got three very hard whacks. The grey helped Oli out at the double corner I think it was and got bashed for his trouble.

For me it was nothing to do with how tired everyones horses finished but the unfair way those two horses were ridden. I am not a wimp where horses are concerned but this really shocked me as I could not put any reason to it.

I have not ridden round a 4* and am not likely to and I understand some people will feel my comments are not valid. However I am a regular spectator at Badminton and Burghley (although this time I watched from home), most spectators at Badminton will not have ridden at that level. If us spectators are put off by this type of riding, and I certainly am, we will not go, no spectators and there will be no Badminton, no sponsors etc. So Oli might not care what the public thinks but he should, ML has lost sponsors due to public pressure the same could happen to Oli and it would be all his own fault and no less than he deserves.

I for one am disgusted by what I saw, I watched the video back just in case I was being unfair, unfortunately second viewing disgusted me even more. I am not a keyboard warrior but sometimes you have to stand up for the horse.

His attitude after his SJ round was absolutely appalling, as if a clear round excuses his dreadful riding of the day before.

Eventing should be breathing a sigh of relief that he did not win.
 
Re the interview, I think in his own weird way he was trying to be complimentary about Jonelle's horse. People can be terribly thin skinned though, especially if they're already down on someone and looking for other things to criticise them about.

I was at badminton and haven't seen the full round yet. When Ollie's horses came past, they looked in better shape than some others. That doesn't excuse over use of the whip, but people tend to get a mob mentality on social media.
 
Goldenstar said:
Well did he .
That rule is designed To cover excessive use of the whip for disobedience for instance if your horse stops .
If you watch Ollie it looks to me he was waving the whip like a jockey does at the horse part of the time then using the whip threeish Times .
I agree that ride was at the very very limit of what’s acceptable I think we can be sure the horses where not in any marked in any way .
I think on bitting we need to be very very careful about limiting breaks on the xc .
Before everybody gets in a sweat it would do well to dwell on the damage that can be done to a strong horse in snaffle and the safety of the riders ,jumping a strong keen horse xc is no joke at the higher level .
And there where as many ugly moments with lightly bitted horses .
My advanced horse was frightenly strong at a three day the steeplechase wound her up and you needed some breaks to head into those advanced combinations with any degree of control.
In a strong set up that suited her she was rideable and I needed not to apply the brakes as often or as strongly you will see many strong horses going happily in strong bits when the balance of control between the horse and the rider is right for that team .
I also don’t understand the sweat up some people are in over Olis interview sure I think he could have been more gracious about Jonelles horse ( who was the best horse over the three days ) but like I said he is what he is hes well trained now at speaking to media but his emotions where showing in that interview .
We are too used to gushing niceness on the telly it but it’s not real life at that level you saw a flash of what goes on in the mind of a driven type A ruthless competitor in that interview ,in my view much more honest that’s a lot you see .
he’s a professional and had just failed to win a huge sum of money his mask was down a bit .
Click to expand...

Yes, he did.
On his second round he breached that "no more than three" rule, hitting the horse five times and on at least three occasions.
He was only (mostly) waving the whip after the penultimate fence.
 
Ambers Echo said:
There are whip rules: Article 243, Section 2.2 in the FEI 2018 Jumping Rules.

2.2. Excessive use of the whip
• The whip may not be used to vent an Athlete’s temper. Such use is always excessive;
• The use of a whip on a Horse’s head is always excessive use;
• A Horse should never be hit more than three times in a row. If a Horse’s skin is broken, it is always considered
excessive use of the whip;
• The whip is not to be used after Elimination;
An Athlete identified as misusing or excessively using the whip will be disqualified and may be fined at the discretion
of the Ground Jury.

There are also rules about blood in the mouth. I agree there should be rules on bitting.

As someone who has only ever done an 80T I tend to avoid these sorts of debates as I feel that I just have no clue what riding at that level is like and you can't always see whether it is a 'wake up' tap or a hard whack.

BUT if there are rules, they should be enforced. OT broke the no more than 3 in a row rule. And the blood in the mouth rules also appear not be overlooked with respect to Marilyn Little.

On a more general note, there are quiet, sympathetic riders and there are bullish, heavy handed ones. There are ones who bit up and ones who don't. There are dressage horses who are trained in rollkur and ones who aren't. It is clear this is a simple choice as to how to train and ride and you can get to the very top of the sport with fantastic all-round quiet horsemanship. Think Pius Schwizer, Michael Jung, Charlotte du Jardin.

I think if rules were very strictly enforced you'd see a lot less 'winning ugly'.
Click to expand...

I wasn't aware there were clear cut rules. They'll have to start enforcement across the board then. When riders aren't punished for breaking the rules, naturally, those inclined to do so will continue to. Mind you, I understand why the ground jury may be hesitant to put their necks on the line. They'd have to be confident that they'd have full support from those in charge of the federations.
 
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There is no rule regards number ! It is for the GJ to decide what is acceptable and they will have seen more of it than you see on the TV . I think a few are getting mixed up with racing.
Fence judges are encouraged to report any potential abuse and then the officials will watch the round carefully.
 
I think Oli's biggest mistake was not accepting the grand jury's decision gracefully. Implying that sometimes 'you need to ride ugly' just sounded arrogant and immature imo. He did the wrong thing by his horses, we can probably understand the reasons why to some degree, but now he needs to step up and behave like a champion, not just win titles. I hope he will learn a big lesson from this fiasco, otherwise I do fear some of his sponsors might get turned off by him. I would if I was looking to support the sport and I would definitely no way send a horse to him, I wouldn't trust what he might do when no-one was watching.

I was lucky enough to go for the day yesterday and I have to say I have never seen Badminton looking so impressive. Bathing in sunshine with the biggest crowds I have ever seen, everywhere looked lovely and people really seemed to be enjoying the whole thing. Lots of proscecco picnics, dogs in cooling blankets, some very glamorous summer fashions, it was a really fun day out. It would have been nice to see one of the British riders win, but in the end I was so glad Jonelle did, she so deserved it after that X country round. Unlike Oli, she came over really well in all her interviews, so all in all much better for the sport. I was also very pleased to see a mare win, I think it makes her only the 5th or 6th mare ever to win, so it was made it very exciting to be there and I enjoyed seeing her do her lap of honour.
 
Tasha! said:
Re the interview, I think in his own weird way he was trying to be complimentary about Jonelle's horse. People can be terribly thin skinned though, especially if they're already down on someone and looking for other things to criticise them about.

I was at badminton and haven't seen the full round yet. When Ollie's horses came past, they looked in better shape than some others. That doesn't excuse over use of the whip, but people tend to get a mob mentality on social media.
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Well put . I love it when they all pile in commenting on how somebody rode a horse. Very few(if any) of the detractors have the talent to be in that position let alone know what he was sitting on and getting feedback from . He knows hes in the spotlight and his riding was deemed ok by those that matter.
 
Tasha! said:
Re the interview, I think in his own weird way he was trying to be complimentary about Jonelle's horse. People can be terribly thin skinned though, especially if they're already down on someone and looking for other things to criticise them about.

I was at badminton and haven't seen the full round yet. When Ollie's horses came past, they looked in better shape than some others. That doesn't excuse over use of the whip, but people tend to get a mob mentality on social media.
Click to expand...

I think that he was being complementary about Jonelle's horse too. I was also at Badminton and he looked good when he came past where I was. I was on the fence when all this started, but I totally changed my mind on seeing the video.

Oli's horses were perfectly fit enough to get round and didn't need pulling up, but they weren't fit enough to make the time in that heat (just like 99% of the other horses there weren't). Only Oli didn't care, he kept pushing and hitting because he wanted the money more.
 
popsdosh said:
Well put . I love it when they all pile in commenting on how somebody rode a horse. Very few(if any) of the detractors have the talent to be in that position let alone know what he was sitting on and getting feedback from . He knows hes in the spotlight and his riding was deemed ok by those that matter.
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It wasnt deemed ok by Ian Stark. I think he still qualifies as "those that matter".
Likewise the three on the ground jury.
 
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popsdosh said:
There is no rule regards number ! It is for the GJ to decide what is acceptable and they will have seen more of it than you see on the TV . I think a few are getting mixed up with racing.
Fence judges are encouraged to report any potential abuse and then the officials will watch the round carefully.
Click to expand...

Perhaps that's the problem? It's hard on the ground jury to make those kind of judgements, particularly at big competitions with big name riders.

I remember during the rollkur furore a lot of people were blaming the stewards in the warm up rings. If they don't have clear directions and support from those in charge it's not an easy decision.
 
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