Badminton XC!

[meleeka]

they are on the badminton website (as is all the footage) and the iplayer and these are the start times so you don't have to watch the full 6 hours
https://www.badminton-horse.co.uk/cross-country-start-list-2018/

Thank you Ester. I’ve now watched the grey and to me it looks like a horse that should have been pulled up. For whatever reason, it didn’t look as if it had enough energy to finish the course safely. (Obviously it did finish so maybe his walloping it helped, but it’s not fair for the welfare of the horse).

 

[YorkshireLady]

I dont think its a witch hunt....and in fact the only reasons we have some of that taint is due to the interviews from OT which fuelled extra fire onto it. I think there is nothing at all wrong with people saying we do not accept this behaviour. The grey was not comfortable watching. If that had been Mark Todd, Andrew etc I would say the same.

I think many people are saddened at bad press around eventing at a time horse sports in general are under enough pressure re welfare etc. It will not take much to drop them from the Olympics.

 

[Fellewell]

So why dont we do away with a ground jury of experienced riders! Who have sanctioned him !It has consequences, Why is that not good enough for you? . If its not you are questioning their judgement who saw more of it than you will have done there will have been vets who report at the finish ,do you know what they said? Doubt it ! There were people on the course who would have alerted any problems. Dont label those not with your view as not wanting to listen when you are not listening to the evidence and the fact he has been sanctioned. Im happy to go with the ground juries decision as thats what their there for.
I know lets replace the ground jury with a public phone in vote.
The reason it has turned into a witch hunt is because of who it was, If it had been WFP,MK etc do you really think we would be here now debating it and can I remind you MK was banned for 2 months for putting her horses welfare at risk in a lot worse situation.Do you want eventing run by the internet because I dont you have to trust those who run it and police it.

So what is your take on Jump4joy removing their sponsorship . Is it a company who takes horses welfare so seriously it has taken them until weds evening to act when they could have done that on their own on sunday! The cynic in me says they have just bowed to the pressure of the internet.

Well said. The problem was, once it was commented on live on air there was only one way for it to go. As you say the FEI have made their decision so all this sanctimonious twaddle really should stop. Some people do 'ugly' posting really well. I had the pleasure of being at Burghley to see Oliver win on Ballaghmor Class, he was absolutely brilliant. I recently watched his run again and the same commentator was effusive about his riding, saying he was the best there is. Same horse, different day, who hasn't been there?
As for whip use, well I have had an argument on here regarding comments on MT one year, probably from another disgruntled Saturday helper. Whip use is very difficult to judge and like being a little bit pregnant, what's more uncomfortable for the horse, four smacks on the rump or one on the flank? Only the person in the saddle really knows what's going on and there were no marks on OT's horses.
One of the truly greats, Lester Piggott, should have got a knighthood for services to racing. He didn't, but I'm damn sure it wasn't because of whip use.

 

[ycbm]

probably from another disgruntled Saturday helper.

One of the volunteers who the day couldn't run without, you mean?

 

[Scoti1420]

I think the answer is no but can anyone confirm - will there be videos of individual rides uploaded anywhere? On BBC there were only 2 clips of the rider I want to watch

 

[fburton]

What annoys me no end is so many jumping on the bandwagon and calling for blood when 99% of them cannot tell the difference between a tired horse and one thats slacking. Do you not know thats why the ground jury took the view they did ,they were closer to the action than all the keyboard warriors and their views were born out by the horse being fresh on Sunday.
Some of you want to be very careful making unfounded accusations as well now and you need reminding to be careful what you put otherwise I for one will start reporting some ,very reluctantly but it has become a witch hunt ,it is forums at there worst.

I do wish you hadn't quoted me when you said that. You could have just written it as a new post. By quoting me, it looks like you think I am amongst those "jumping on the bandwagon" when actually there is nothing in my comment that would imply that. When you wrote "Do you not know...", did you really mean me?

 

[ester]

I think the answer is no but can anyone confirm - will there be videos of individual rides uploaded anywhere? On BBC there were only 2 clips of the rider I want to watch

I don't think badminton ever splits them into individual riders, I think at this point that is a good thing as the ones that do some of the individuals tend to go missing, if it's mixed in with everyone else then they not too tricky to find but impossible to take out.

I didn't understand why you got quoted either FB, your post didn't even have an opinion in it (mostly because it could have been taken either way as I read it).

 

[WandaMare]

Whether the punishment was harsh enough is very subjective call anyway, the ground jury probably had different views amongst themselves individually. The important thing is that he has been called out on his behaviour in a particularly high profile way, just as he was the man of the moment. He's going to be watched like a hawk now, as are many of the other riders so overall its not been a bad thing for the sport.

I don't think there has been a witch hunt on here, just some good quality debate and sharing of opinions. However, I did have a flick through the posts on his FB page and some of them are pretty unpleasant and unnecessary and I would say more of a witch hunt on there. Some people will genuinely be posting because they care for the horses' welfare and others just enjoy pulling others down and lashing out for the sake of it.

I'm interested to see what happens next, whether Oli changes his ways. If he does then the ground jury got it just right, we shall see.

 

[Sandstone1]

I also do not see a witch hunt. We are all entitled to our own opinions, there is no need to get so defensive about it and threatening to report peoples post for having a view that is not the same as yours. I do not care who the rider was, it is not acceptable to act like that. Yes the ground jury did not disqualify him, that is the decision that they took. It does not mean everyone has to agree with that though.

IMO OT was not easy to watch, the Grey in particular made me feel very uncomfortable. If your Horse is that tired then pull it up and retire, not keep belting it with a whip when the Horse is trying its heart out to jump clear. Oh and I was there so did see in person (not every jump obviously) the grey did look tired and not just lacking in concentration, it was an extremely hot day and the ground was not great in places. The Horse was noticeably tired compared to the others.

The Bay did seem like he could continue so I have no issue with that Horse.

I really hope that this will make OT think in future.

I agree with this, There are one or two posters who seem to think that if you dont agree with them you shouldn't post.
Sorry but this is a forum for discussion. Its good that this issue has been brought to light and talked about.
Its not about a witch hunt its about making sure that people who should know better see that their actions have consequences.

 

[teapot]

I'm fairly sure we also discussed the Mary King situation when that happened, as we have many others, it really isn't personal.

Indeed, or in the depths of my memory, when Harry Meade wasn't allowed to ride his second horse at Burghley after not pulling up Dunaguer I think it was.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

did he hit the bay only after the VV? Thats the only bit of that round I saw and while it didn't look justified, if the horse wasn't forward thinking at that point then I guess its one way of dealing with it.

the grey was tired -anyone who thinks the horse wasn't tired and that it was 'at it/slacking' is wrong. He had been ridden quite fast in places-should have been pulled up. OT was a bit of an arse a decade ago and he's a bit of an arse now and there are still horribly yappy dogs at Badminton. I don't much care for eventing, its not the actual sport I don't think but like a few things, it was better in the 80s.

 

[LaurenBay]

did he hit the bay only after the VV? Thats the only bit of that round I saw and while it didn't look justified, if the horse wasn't forward thinking at that point then I guess its one way of dealing with it.

the grey was tired -anyone who thinks the horse wasn't tired and that it was 'at it/slacking' is wrong. He had been ridden quite fast in places-should have been pulled up. OT was a bit of an arse a decade ago and he's a bit of an arse now and there are still horribly yappy dogs at Badminton. I don't much care for eventing, its not the actual sport I don't think but like a few things, it was better in the 80s.

Hit the bay much more then just at the VV. Not quite as much as the grey, the Bay looked full of running to me and perhaps the whip was just to focus the Horse on the jump. He also hit a couple of times on the flat between fences. The Grey is a different story entirely and I agree with you that the Horse was tired.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I'm finding it a bit difficult to equate being 'a little bit pregnant' with how often or where a rider hits a horse .

But then I'm probably only in the 'Saturday helper' category so my opinion is apparently of no value. Though I have FJ'd at BE on Sundays, too. Fridays is dressage writing day .

 

[Christmas Crumpet]

I have not read through this entire post as I don't have time but has anyone mentioned the use of a whip in racing? Noone is jumping up and down about that and I don't think OT used his whip on either horse any more than a jockey would riding a finish.

Those horses finish very tired, some even die of a heart attack afterwards!! Just a thought.

 

[be positive]

I have not read through this entire post as I don't have time but has anyone mentioned the use of a whip in racing? Noone is jumping up and down about that and I don't think OT used his whip on either horse any more than a jockey would riding a finish.

Those horses finish very tired, some even die of a heart attack afterwards!! Just a thought.

Use of a whip in racing is regulated to a set number after the final fence and any breech of the rule does mean a fine and ban for the jockey , it is fairly simple to police, the issue with OT and the GJ is that there is no definitive ruling other than no more than 3 times in one incident and no use after the final fence to go on so it does come down to opinion of what is or is not acceptable as well as what is or is not a tired horse, the rules probably need tightening up a little but will never be as easy to set or monitor as in racing.

As for OT I think it is important to remember he rode both horses in a similar way, one may have been slacking but to have both dossing on the same day does seem a bit of a convenient excuse.

 

[ozpoz]

..I think a tired horse needs to be pulled up if it isn't capable of continuing safely without the rider risking bringing the sport into disrepute.

 

[ester]

People do jump up and down about whip use in racing, which is why the rules are pretty strict including the type of stick which may or may not apply here


In racing they do put a fair amount of empahsis on giving the chance to respond and it if isn't responding then you don't keep using the stick which seems fair to me as you should only be using it to effect a change. - Which as scotty pointed out wasn't really happening with Oli's horse.

permitted use with hand off the reins is 8 times for a jump race,


I'm sad enough to have just counted, I have tried to include only those which one could hear a slapping sound with so not the swooshing he was doing.

2 after the corners
3 after the escalator
2 before/going over the brush fence
1/2 going under the entrance to the main ring, one looked to be shoulder, one bum, but hand was off the reins.

So 8/9 total on the footage,

 

[Honey08]

To be fair, I don't think that the horse needed pulling up, it just didn't need pushing so much for the time. If he'd let it come in at its own pace rather than keep pushing, he'd have got a multitude of time faults but it wouldn't have been ugly. I'd have had so much admiration for him. He has a good string of horses nowadays, he will quite likely have other chances at the grand slam. He'd got carried away with his world no 1 status. Such a shame, he'd really gone up in my opinion over the last few years.

I've never seen anything as upsetting at Burghley than Harry Meade when his tired horse fell that time, he went past us a few fences earlier and it was struggling then, but he's grown up, learned from it, and people have forgiven him.

I think Badminton and the FEI deserve a bit of this backlash too though. I think Badmindton were also carried away by the possibility of a Rolex grand slam and two leaders on the same score.

 

[WandaMare]

To
I think Badminton and the FEI deserve a bit of this backlash too though. I think Badmindton were also carried away by the possibility of a Rolex grand slam and two leaders on the same score.

I'm not sure they 'deserve' it, what have they done lol, do you mean they should have disqualified / eliminated him? Sorry, not sure what you mean..

 

[Honey08]

I'm not sure they 'deserve' it, what have they done lol, do you mean they should have disqualified / eliminated him? Sorry, not sure what you mean..

Yes, I think they made a wishy washy decision, I have less respect for them too. I think they perhaps were as blinded by the grand slam possibly happening at their event as much as Oil was.

 

[Wheels]

I see that one of OTs sponsors have states that they are no longer associated with him.
Interesting, I wonder if others will follow.

 

[Honey08]

But from the other side, I saw one of his horse's owners on Facebook defending him and saying it needed putting to bed now.

 

[VoR]

I don't follow much eventing, it's not my cup of tea .....

Riders can batter their horses with whips and get a slap on the wrist (racing jockeys have huge whip restrictions that are always up for debate!) ....

People can turn against their favourite riders within seconds....

A suspensory Injury deems putting to sleep. I'd be interested to know why. Bones, a completely broken down tendon or two but not a suspensory in racing.

If Eventing isn't your 'Cup of tea' then toddle off elsewhere rather than a thread about eventing!

There are rules in eventing regarding use of the whip, don't forget that racing didn't always have these and plenty of very tired horses got beaten to the finish rather than pulled up, you see the same now without the use of a whip in some forms of racing.

People are 'turning on' a rider because they feel (I have sworn to the OH that I won't comment on this so will say THEY feel) he was totally out-of-order in doing what he did, it has lost him much support and some sponsors.....

As for the injury to Redpath Ransom, all injuries have degrees of severity, this one was a catastrophic injury, believe me the horse was loved by rider, owners, team and all the supporters who were devastated at his loss, if there had been any chance that he could be saved he would have been, so, as you have no knowledge of the rider, the horse, the team, the owners or the extent of the injury EKW, please take your opinions and shove them...............

 

[Velcrobum]

Very late to this thread but the ground jury watch the live feed and have the capacity to go back and review anything. They will have seen every riders round and have the authority to stop a rider if they feel it is not safe to continue or the horse is too tired etc etc. The feed that joe public gets even on the red button has a delay of a few seconds and is carefully controlled. Falls are shown if dramatic and if horse and rider both get up otherwise are not seen on TV only by people present at the fence or on facebook, youtube etc if someone was filming it at the time and choses to post it.
OT has apologised admits it was ugly to watch after he saw the recorded round and as others have said he has lost sponsors but is also being publicly supported by others. I saw very ugly riding at other fences on the course by other riders but this did not go out onto the red button so there is no outcry about their riding.

 

[Mooseontheloose]

There were much more tired horses than OT's finishing. One looked as if it could barely stand and had a cricket score the next day, but nothing said.

 

[ester]

So a rule change looks like it's in order. I do think that is a good thing as the more black and white they can make things the better. It will be interesting to see what they are seeking to do with the blood rule.

http://www.chronofhorse.com/article...g-horse-welfare-are-in-the-works-for-eventing

 

[AmyMay]

If Eventing isn't your 'Cup of tea' then toddle off elsewhere rather than a thread about eventing!

........ so, as you have no knowledge of the rider, the horse, the team, the owners or the extent of the injury EKW, please take your opinions and shove them...............

Well aren't you a little ray of sunshine - not.....

 

[Velcrobum]

Well aren't you a little ray of sunshine - not.....

I suspect this poster was a close connection Redpath Ransom in response to EKW stating that suspensory injuries do not need putting down. I suspect emotions are running very high if I am correct.

 

[AmyMay]

I suspect this poster was a close connection Redpath Ransom in response to EKW stating that suspensory injuries do not need putting down. I suspect emotions are running very high if I am correct.

And that in English is??

 

[ester]

that VoR knows Alex Bragg/the horse/the team so feels strongly about it, I didn't think it that tricky to read.

I did think it an odd thing to question why he was PTS TBH, I can't think it was done lightly/without the best advice.