Balancing a trot on very wonky unbalanced horse

paddi22

paddi22

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Recently got in a horse that has spent most of its life on box rest due to a car crash and then a tendon injury. he had awful hoof balance and body balance when we got him. He's barefoot now, came sound, had a year off and we have been working with physios for a rehab programme over the past few months. We don't know ridden history but looks like he had been backed and ridden away, but then injury stopped his riding career at that stage, so very green. The other issue is it looks like someone tried to draw rein him when young while he had a jaw injury, so he finds trot very stressful and expects a fight, so I have to be very conscious of soft contact.He was totally locked in his back and pelvis and is now loosened up and moving well but hocks obviously aren't used to trot work and he doesn't know how to use them properly. We do a lot of groundwork, raised poles and lateral work inhand and he is good at them. He is now up to an hour and a half hilly hacks per day, doing stretch walk which he enjoys and physio suggested trot be introduced as he's strong enough now.

I back a lot of horses but I've never had one that is so badly balanced in trot. in walk he's perfect now, soft and swinging with nice contact. at the moment we are mainly just in straight lines doing short bursts of trot. as regards the trot, I have been getting conflicting advice from 2 physios, plus two dressage trainers and I can see both side's logic so I'm confused! One side says keep the trot very slow, balanced and controlled and work on contact softness and roundness as the back and hind are strong enough to ask, and circles are best for this. The other side says just treat like a typical green horse and keep to a straight line on tracks outdoors and do a more active trot pushing from behind to encourage the hock action with just a soft contact letting them find their own balance and concentrating of forward and straight. I have tried both approachs and both have pluses and minuses. when the trot is very slow he can balance but I feel like I'm choking his natural paces and not engaging his hind and hocks enough..but when I do the typical young horse 'just go forward and straight' trot I feel it's too heavy on his front legs with the tendon injury and he's quite a strong blood horse so he rushes and gets too forward, so it ends up a fight of halfhalting to stop him rushing and then him turning quarters out etc.

Has anyone any opinions on what approach they would take? I have done all the groundwork/hillwork/strengthening so he's at a stage where he has to learn trot balance with a rider and I'd love to get views on best approach from people's experiences. Just curious what people find works for them. We are doing a mix at the moment plus pole work etc, but I'm struggling because I like having a theoretical basis for an approach for a horse, and I'm in between two minds with this one!
 
With no personal experience of this sort of problem! What is he like when there is no rider? I think maybe the circles and school figures, but in short bursts. It isn't going to be quick whatever you do.
 
I would work in as long a frame as you can.. and refrain from circles .. bit hard to say without seeing how the horses is built .. The long frame builds the psoas muscles and encourages the back to lift ... obv the back cannot lift if the psoas aren't strong enough. If he has been worked in draw reins / gadgets he needs to learn to stretch into the contact. When you are getting a nice rythm start to introduce a medium head positon and work on large circles. He needs to rediscover his stride and movement so ride forward and have a very light seat .. almost a jump seat or as if you were doing trotting poles. I would worry about working on circles at this stage as it sounds like he doesn't have the muscles to support his joints.
 
Oh, whoops! A completely different reply. But yes, I agree with Zuzan - long frame, but in a large circle, serpentine, rather than a straight line they have to balance themselves. Trotting poles so he has to lower his head to look.
 
yeah it's gas, I literally get 50/50 advice on either way to do it, and both make sense! here's a quick video of horse in action.

I think I just always had an approach I used with young green horses, but this guy is different and has had so many various body issues that it's so tricky to find his balance. I'm not finding the right balance between helping him and letting him work it out himself I think. when I see the trot in that video, and it's a typical example, I just see a dodgy trot where he's trailing his hocks behind and not learning to use them properly? and I'm totally choking his natural pace
 
Yup ... what my coach calls "best trot" .. very very forward with the rider in a very light seat ... I think he is trailing his hocks as previously these were "blocked" by use of gadgets / lack of strength / ability to lift back.. when you have a reliable rythm then think about doing large serpentines etc .. Think about establishing the trot in the same way that you when you jump a young horse you simply go with the horse and do your absolute level best not to interfer .. (at that stage) .. For a horse that is coming back from injury and young and been gadgeted it will take some work to get the horse to take the contact forward confidently and with enough strength and energy.
 
yeah I think you're right. my gut says the straight line, more forward natural trot is the best way to go. when I look at that arena video I think I'm just teaching him a bad stuffy trot. I think my fear with him is that when I take him out on a straight track on hacks and try and concentrate on keeping him forward, rhythmic and straight, he really rushes, hollows and I worry about the tendon injury on the front leg and if too much force is going into it. he's a big strong horse and he takes a lot of holding when his blood gets up, which it seems to when he is in a more active trot, I think he worries about losing balance and wobbles between rushing and sticking his head to his neck and trying to tank, or else just wobbling wildly and twisting his quarters to balance.

maybe it's safer just to keep walk trot transitions and a few strides of trot and then back, and gradually build?? just torn between all the advice of 'push him forward to use hocks and strengthen' and 'keep it very slow on arena circles till he's stronger'
 
Ideally I'd want to teach him neck extension in walk first .. this prevents the upside down stuff / hollowing .. If you have a decent sized arena you could simply ask for the "best trot" on the longside .. he's worried about losing balance is symptomatic of gadgeting / injury / weakness .. when going from walk to trot .. ask for "best trot" immediately and follow with your hands and go into very light seat immediately .. "best trot" doesn't have to be for long .. so maybe just along the longsides. When transitioning down try and make this a soft as possible and stay in light seat .. don't "sit" the transitions up or down at this stage (takes a lot of human core stability ;) ). The more confident he becomes the more easy it will be to ask for best trot out hacking.
 
I don't see trailing hocks in that video Paddi? I don't think it looks too bad for a green and injured horse at all, or as if you are stifling his paces and he seems to stay nice and soft. You're obviously getting a different feeling to what I'm seeing, though.

I don't like the sound of what you describe if he goes faster, so on balance I'd be sticking with the slow and steady approach, or doing that on arena days and the other on hacking days.
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Yeah I think I'd want to avoid rushing and going squiffy from what you've said, and would accept a quieter trot while he susses out that there's not going to be a fight.
I think its really hard for a horse that rushes to find its balance, they run and run sometimes trying to catch themselves. He looked content enough in that short clip, you can make the trot bigger and more active etc when he has gained confidence in the whole idea.

A retraining job is not the same as a blank canvas young horse so I don't think there's anything wrong with going round the houses.
 
yeah it's probably a case of keeping it mentally easier for him and then pushing it a bit once he's settled. it's an interesting debate between the two physios, one says to do what is mentally easier for him, even though it's not physically the optimum thing to do. the other says to get the physical stuff right (ie get his hocks with more action and working under him) and work through the messing/wobbling/twisting and then he will find the work easier. it really made me re-evaluate how we as riders have to teach horses balance in a pace they find difficult and how much/little we should be doing to help them find their balance.
 
Posture, posture, posture! :)

SLOW if necessary.....may look 'backwards' (and I come from an era when it was 'vorwarts, vorwarts/forwards, forwards!), but obtain the correct posture and relaxation and then add the power as and when the horse can handle it.

Klaus Schoeneich and Manolo Mendez are useful resources and have been good influences. When they can do it in-hand then attempt under saddle. If they can't do it 'unencumbered' then there is no chance they can do it ridden. Sadly though, just because a horse can do it ' unencumbered', doesn't mean he can do it ridden.
 
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he looks too round for this stage, i would prefer to see a less formed outline to let him step under more, he looks too deep on the front end and your hands are so far apart, i would offer him at the wither hand contact with soft relaxed arms to encourage him to take the contact forward however he feels comfortable, less interference more flowing forwards till he comes to it himself

if he offers well forwards ride that, if hes slower ride that , play with his perception of trot till physically he finds the right place and fitness to maintain working trot on demand
 
tristar said:
he looks too round for this stage, i would prefer to see a less formed outline to let him step under more, he looks too deep on the front end and your hands are so far apart, i would offer him at the wither hand contact with soft relaxed arms to encourage him to take the contact forward however he feels comfortable, less interference more flowing forwards till he comes to it himself

if he offers well forwards ride that, if hes slower ride that , play with his perception of trot till physically he finds the right place and fitness to maintain working trot on demand
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yeah it's a tough one because his natural instinct is to stick his head to chest from the draw reining, so it's tough getting him to take it forward. Like you say, that's what I'm feeling in the current trot, that there's no stepping under, so I can see why one physio wants a more powerful forward trot focusing on hock action. I agree with you that I think there's too much focus on contact and shape for the stage he is at and it all feels a bit fussy. We tried the contact at withers but he only seems to soften with the very babyish wide contact, it seems to make him feel a bit more protection on the sides with his balance? it's a weird one.
 
I vote slow. Balance before movement. I did a lot of that with Granny horse who couldn't even trot a full circuit of the school at first (at 14 years old). 20m circle and a "trickle trot" for a 1/4 circle at a time. Lateral work and 10m circles in a slow walk and lots of walk halt walk transitions. Plenty of hacking in mostly walk. And it just slowly slowly builds. I had an excellent, supportive instructor who was able to give me confidence in what I was doing, which was important as I got lots of "helpful" advice to ride her forwards... which I was able to ignore.
 
i think the forwards approach can work for a lot of horses because some gain confidence in their movement and balance when they realise nothing is stopping them from going. but something that has a serious wonk or has got anxious about it can end up making things worse. It's definitely one of those horses for courses things.
 
I would neither push nor slow him down, I would go out with a hacking buddy with a similar stride to him, put him behind and trot without worrying about the head. If he knows shoulder in, you can start to introduce shoulder in on hacks to get the head to come down a bit.
I think he needs to find his trot rythm without too much interference. Then you can work on improving the trot.
BTW the walks looks great.
 
paddi22 said:
yeah it's a tough one because his natural instinct is to stick his head to chest from the draw reining, so it's tough getting him to take it forward. Like you say, that's what I'm feeling in the current trot, that there's no stepping under, so I can see why one physio wants a more powerful forward trot focusing on hock action. I agree with you that I think there's too much focus on contact and shape for the stage he is at and it all feels a bit fussy. We tried the contact at withers but he only seems to soften with the very babyish wide contact, it seems to make him feel a bit more protection on the sides with his balance? it's a weird one.
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sounds difficult, what palindrome says makes sense to me, interested to see how he progresses
 
milliepops said:
i think the forwards approach can work for a lot of horses because some gain confidence in their movement and balance when they realise nothing is stopping them from going. but something that has a serious wonk or has got anxious about it can end up making things worse. It's definitely one of those horses for courses things.
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With my newly backed PRE mare I had to mix it. Her movement was too big for her to manage without stressing her, but she's a naturally very forwards horse and can bottle up if she's restricted too much. So I had to slow it down, let it go, slow it down, let it go. Sometimes within a session, sometimes over different rides.
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Goldenstar said:
I would go slowly .
You can’t put more speed into a trot that the balance can cope with .
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gunnergundog said:
Posture, posture, posture! :)

SLOW if necessary.....may look 'backwards' (and I come from an era when it was 'vorwarts, vorwarts/forwards, forwards!), but obtain the correct posture and relaxation and then add the power as and when the horse can handle it.

Klaus Schoeneich and Manolo Mendez are useful resources and have been good influences. When they can do it in-hand then attempt under saddle. If they can't do it 'unencumbered' then there is no chance they can do it ridden. Sadly though, just because a horse can do it ' unencumbered', doesn't mean he can do it ridden.
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This 100%.

I see a few things in the video, and I'm just stating what I see at a quick glance.

I think he, or the saddle, is pushing you out of balance. Your right leg is more forwards, your left more under you (I think, obviously hard to tell from such a clip), then you are a little tipped to the right in your upper body, and we know he has a healing injury that will be making him crooked. I think something about the saddle is also putting you behind the movement.

Then add the context that head position is the result of everything else; that he is hollow because he's finding it hard, and it's rare that asking directly for a lowering of the head is the answer to hollowness. A wide, low hand can be unforgiving, though of course it can be useful when it's just baby wobbliness.

I would do even more work from the ground, without doubt, and you may need a more intensive programme, on tailored for him from a real expert. I would hack out in straight lines, if the saddle really works for both of you, but I would build straightness and posture from the ground.
 
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