Ban all hunts

Smurf's Gran said:
Thank you...this was not made clear at all in Bonkers posts - can you reference the report so I can have a look
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From what I understood of bonkers posts she was trying to say that the RSPCA were told to stop bringing prosecutions which proves that the hunts act within the law - which is simple not the case. Hence why I corrected her. I'm afraid I don't know where you would find the report now - it was a while back it was published.
 
Just wanted to say the term 'inbreds' is used in relation to real country folk,born and bred as in they are inbred because they is no new blood in the area-I have never heard it used in relation to those with money in fact probably the opposite would be more true as historically the wealthy were more able to travel and meet and marry someone from outside of their home village.
 
Yup If you were to get my late gran started on relations in the neighbouring villages! It's not really the point of the thread but I really don't think you can argue hunting isn't elitist at all LRP- it is an expensive passtime on all levels.
 
I didn't specify whether I am pro or against hunting. I am however very pro one group of people providing credible evidence to support their argument if they wish to dictate the actions of another group. Since both LACS and the RSPCA have failed to do so despite having 10 years to do it, what justification is there for further restrictions on the activity of hunts. A pitifully small number of successful prosecutions in 10 years could be because the evidence is hard to find or it could be that it's not there to be found. Anti hunt activists never seem to consider the latter option.
 
millikins said:
I didn't specify whether I am pro or against hunting. I am however very pro one group of people providing credible evidence to support their argument if they wish to dictate the actions of another group. Since both LACS and the RSPCA have failed to do so despite having 10 years to do it, what justification is there for further restrictions on the activity of hunts. A pitifully small number of successful prosecutions in 10 years could be because the evidence is hard to find or it could be that it's not there to be found. .......... .
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That sums up my position.
 
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ester said:
Yup If you were to get my late gran started on relations in the neighbouring villages! It's not really the point of the thread but I really don't think you can argue hunting isn't elitist at all LRP- it is an expensive passtime on all levels.
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Expensive yes..elitist no. Yes there are the very rich/posh etc but I'd hardly call a field of farmers, nurses, riding instructors, doctors, secretaries, office-workers, mechanics and farriers (to name a few) elite.

I am aware that inbred doesn't necessarily relate to being considered wealthy...my point was that along with class-related drivel this is commonlu used even though it is completely unrelated to the people that hunt or the sport itself.
 
Just to add...on the recent countryfile an anti campaigner made it quite clear that they were not satisfied with the actual hunting of foxes etc bing stopped, they wanted hunts to disappear all together...how is that animal welfare??..its not its a prejudice if not hatred against a group of people they know nothing about other than what they want/think they know.
 
Smurf's Gran said:
You are right, much of the natural world is cruel. I suppose that animals doing what they naturally do ( and a lot of the time for food) is one thing, but humans doing it for sport for me is the crucial difference. I accept that dogs (when hunting) are doing what comes naturally, but they are not doing this in a natural arena, Its a group of people who have organised them for the purposes of sport , and they are not hunting for their food - for me that is where the difference lies.[/QUOTE

When an overfed sighthound kills a cat he's not killing primarily for food. It's in his genes, that prey-drive is impossible to eradicate, though it can be tamed to man's advantage. The 'natural arena' you speak of does not exist. Animals create their own 'natural arena' wherever they happen to be unless we are there to stop them, that's where training comes in.

When a female polar bear finally bags a seal for her starving cubs we are all delighted. This is of no consolation to the seal.
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ester said:
Yup If you were to get my late gran started on relations in the neighbouring villages! It's not really the point of the thread but I really don't think you can argue hunting isn't elitist at all LRP- it is an expensive passtime on all levels.
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Expensive by all accounts - think of the hundreds of thousands of pounds of taxpayers' money being used by CPS and likes trying to enforce this mad mad mad legislation.
 
It is odd that people refer to hunting as elitist, because as anybody who has ever been hunting knows, it is perhaps the most meritocratic situation you will find in Britain, with people from every section of society mixing happily to do what they love best - hunting. Where else would you find mechanics, farmhands and hairdressers chatting to teachers, nurses, doctors and yes, some stockbrokers or large landowners.
 
Countryman said:
It is odd that people refer to hunting as elitist, because as anybody who has ever been hunting knows, it is perhaps the most meritocratic situation you will find in Britain, with people from every section of society mixing happily to do what they love best - hunting. Where else would you find mechanics, farmhands and hairdressers chatting to teachers, nurses, doctors and yes, some stockbrokers or large landowners.
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Precisely.
 
Until I see hard evidence of hunts routinely breaking the law, I am happy to give them the benefit of the doubt. All the evidence to the contrary seems mostly to be dark mutterings, malicious rumours and sly hints based on a smattering of convictions and relying on the measly excuse "oh but it's sooooo difficult to get evidence" to explain away the fragility of their case. It was pointed out at the time that it would be a difficult law to enforce but oh no, nothing would do but to introduce it.

Also it would be impossible to ban trail hunting. How would you go about it? Ban all riding on groups with dogs? Ban scent hounds from smelling?

I also think the hardcore antis are primarily just doing it to cock a snoop at posh people. They were able to get their story out to the wider public before hunts knew what was happening. And bearing in mind all most people know about fox hunting is that you chase a little fox with several hounds who rip it apart, well I can understand how they recruited so many to their banner.

It's a classic example of why the majority is not always right. Remember, if we put the death penalty to a vote that could well pass too!

What I don't understand is how hunting is banned as being cruel and the raft of awful things we do to farm animals is allowed. Where is lacs then eh?
 
ester said:
Yup If you were to get my late gran started on relations in the neighbouring villages! It's not really the point of the thread but I really don't think you can argue hunting isn't elitist at all LRP- it is an expensive passtime on all levels.
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It really annoys me when people describe hunting as 'elitist'. I was born and raised on an inner city council estate and it's taken me many years to realise my dream of owning a horse. I work very long hours not because hunting is expensive but because keeping a horse is definitely not cheap. If I spent my money on lots of foreign holidays, brand new cars or whatever then presumably that would be OK - but because I have a horse and go hunting I get a lot of stick from people about being 'snobby' and 'elitist'.
I actually spend £30 a week on hunting, during the season; I know people who spend a lot more than that, over a year, competing in dressage, showjumping, eventing or whatever, but by and large they are not subject to the same sort of ribbing as riders who go hunting. And they are perfectly at liberty to do so. I know someone who spent £90 a week on dressage lessons; what business of that is mine? Her money, her choice. But because I go hunting people - including other horsey people - have a go at me for being posh and elitist. It's laughable.
I hunt with a bloodhound pack; I didn't start hunting until post-ban so I've no experience of live hunting at all. Why on earth should what I do be banned? It's utterly crazy.
 
I suppose here I am used to going out with the sort of people that don't have to worry about taking days off work to hunt midweek and are the majority are pretty posh compared to the other people I know so I can sort of see where that comes from although they are all very nice and def not snobby! That was less the case when I was in Somerset- on the posh scale not the nice one! I have just come back from a day of 93 though (joint meet) and certainly all sorts there. I just think that to have the time, money and horse power to be a regular makes you one of few which would be my definition of elite- regardless of where those few started out - ie they don't have to have been born into it which is perhaps what others think of the word? I certainly couldn't manage to go more than I do now which is about once a month - I think will total 4/5 days this season in the end, it's our winter treat as we can hack as dont have transport for other jollies.
 
Please see below - at recent post - would this be an example of illegal activity - please advise me if I have misunderstood. Thanks



Today, 09:18 PM #1

ladyaga

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Default Digging up foxes


Is this correct, I have to day seen a script of A4 telling a friend how this hunt digs up foxes, bags them and where they do it and why, is this allowed, I can tell you the hunt concerned, I was a little surprised that this was given to me, all the names are there, as to who has said this and that, and who was doing this deed, and which days they needed the foxes for. I was under the impression they used a rag to put up the scent.

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Read more at http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?691923-Digging-up-foxes#zm7vcLKx7xMSPidD.99
 
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Smurf's Gran said:
Please see below - at recent post - would this be an example of illegal activity - please advise me if I have misunderstood. Thanks



Today, 09:18 PM #1

ladyaga

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Default Digging up foxes


Is this correct, I have to day seen a script of A4 telling a friend how this hunt digs up foxes, bags them and where they do it and why, is this allowed, I can tell you the hunt concerned, I was a little surprised that this was given to me, all the names are there, as to who has said this and that, and who was doing this deed, and which days they needed the foxes for. I was under the impression they used a rag to put up the scent.

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Read more at http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?691923-Digging-up-foxes#zm7vcLKx7xMSPidD.99
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As a hunt supporter I do not condone blatant/arrogant flouting of the law..even if I do think it is a ridiculous one., but thsi does not mean that every hunt/ teh majority of hunts are doing this.
 
I would suggest that ladyaga takes her information to the police. A report by a person writing under a pseudonym supplying nothing other than hearsay is not evidence, if it contains verifiable detail then I'm sure the appropriate law enforcement agency will take action.
 
S G is a troublemaker through and through. We have tried to explain and be patient, she doesn't want to know. Open minded, she is not.
I don't know why they come on here. It is obvious people who hunt are not going to be in agreement with these extreme viewpoints.
In the end, it is best to ignore her.
 
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Smurf's Gran said:
Please see below - at recent post - would this be an example of illegal activity - please advise me if I have misunderstood. Thanks



Today, 09:18 PM #1

ladyaga

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Default Digging up foxes


Is this correct, I have to day seen a script of A4 telling a friend how this hunt digs up foxes, bags them and where they do it and why, is this allowed, I can tell you the hunt concerned, I was a little surprised that this was given to me, all the names are there, as to who has said this and that, and who was doing this deed, and which days they needed the foxes for. I was under the impression they used a rag to put up the scent.

.




Read more at http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?691923-Digging-up-foxes#zm7vcLKx7xMSPidD.99
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And in the interest of debate, here was my response, and despite my offer, you seem a little reticent to copy the reply. I've saved you the trouble! :)

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Is this correct, I have to day seen a script of A4 telling a friend how this hunt digs up foxes, bags them and where they do it and why, is this allowed, I can tell you the hunt concerned, I was a little surprised that this was given to me, all the names are there, as to who has said this and that, and who was doing this deed, and which days they needed the foxes for. I was under the impression they used a rag to put up the scent.

*************

Before you level accusations at others, you will need clear evidence of the offence. My own view is that your accusations, though possibly well intentioned by you, are scurrilous poppycock. If a fox were to be 'dug up' as you put it, and then taken to an area which was unfamiliar to it, turned out and then hounds set upon it, there would be no hunting, because the fox not familiar with the ground where it's released, simply wouldn't run. A wild fox, which has been dug out and released beside the earth, will make good its escape because it will be fully aware of its immediate environment. The same fox, taken miles from its home ground won't provide sport and so it would be a complete waste of time.

These frankly daft accusations which have no foundation in truth, are all so often banded about by those who are more intent on mischief than fact. I accept that you may well believe the story that you've been told, but I don't, not one word of it. Sorry.

Alec.

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Smurfs Gran, we had another poster who had a similar approach to yours, in that they asked questions, they received well considered responses, but continued to ask the same questions, over and over again. It became a little tedious. The poster of whom I was very fond, despite her rather peculiar debating technique, and who's no longer a member, and as you, refused to consider factual argument.

Alec.
 
millikins said:
Now a question about sports where animals are set on other animals to fight or kill them. These activities are currently illegal in Great Britain. For each one I read out, please tell me whether you think it should or should not be made legal again. Just read out the letter that applies in each case." SHOWCARD

Fox Hunting; Deer Hunting; Hare Hunting and Coursing; Dog fighting; Badger baiting.

- Yes, should be made legal again

- No, should not be made legal again

- Don’t Know

This was the question that Ipsos Mori put to gain its "80%" "support" for continuing the ban, couldn't really be described as not leading the respondent could it?
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Bonkers2 said:
That's almost unbelievable!
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Quite, but we should consider who it was who 'paid' for the 'research' in the first place.

Alec.
 
I would be willing to hazard a guess that the other 20% would've been "don't know's", thereby giving 0% support for repeal of foxhunting; sure even LACS would realise that would hardly be credible:D
 
Countryman said:
It is odd that people refer to hunting as elitist, because as anybody who has ever been hunting knows, it is perhaps the most meritocratic situation you will find in Britain, with people from every section of society mixing happily to do what they love best - hunting. Where else would you find mechanics, farmhands and hairdressers chatting to teachers, nurses, doctors and yes, some stockbrokers or large landowners.
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Sadly we never get blinkered people to see this .
 
Alec Swan said:
If a fox were to be 'dug up' as you put it, and then taken to an area which was unfamiliar to it, turned out and then hounds set upon it, there would be no hunting, because the fox not familiar with the ground where it's released, simply wouldn't run. A wild fox, which has been dug out and released beside the earth, will make good its escape because it will be fully aware of its immediate environment. The same fox, taken miles from its home ground won't provide sport and so it would be a complete waste of time.

Alec.
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Quite right. The RSPCA in their wisdom would box up caught foxes from Cardiff and let them out in a bunch on the ranges; the poor foxes didn't have a clue and were sitting targets as they saw both people and hounds as 'normal', not to be run away from, they were chopped down where they stood. That's what happens when you take an urban fox out into a rural environment but of course, the RSPCA knew best and caused that suffering themselves..
 
Smurfs Gran, we had another poster who had a similar approach to yours, in that they asked questions, they received well considered responses, but continued to ask the same questions, over and over again. It became a little tedious. The poster of whom I was very fond, despite her rather peculiar debating technique, and who's no longer a member, and as you, refused to consider factual argument.

Alec.
Read more at https://forums-secure.horseandhound...91759-Ban-all-hunts/page9#pTkFrOisZHsmU2OV.99

Alec, I do not appreciate you making personal comments about me that are superfluous to the argument. However, the HH forum is likely to be pro fox hunting by its very origin. As you are well aware I am against, I would add this does not mean I either am a sab, approve of what they do, neither does this mean I am a townie (I am not), or that I have a particular political inclination, or are from a particular class.
The hunting landscape of HH does not mean there cannot be a civilised debate, and if you actually read my posts as opposed to just reacting (as many on here have), you will see that I ask people to supply info, qualify their statements etc. I do not recall actually getting an answer to many of my questions. I think a debate would have been interesting, but I can see that many who are pro hunting are not capable of this, any suggestion there could be another way is mainly met with self righteous indignation, and an aggressive inability to envision any other perspective - you do yourselves no favours - some of the comments here are uneducated, rigid and personal. (some comments also break forum rules, ie - Bonkers2's comments about me, and your comments to Ladyaga - who actually prefixed her post with "is this right?" yet all manner of vitriol was aimed at her - reminds me of Shakespeare's quote re protesting too much!)

I would add that some of the discussions on here have been about if illegal hunting actually exists with pro hunters being sure it doesn't - however, I recall one of your posts where you stated clearly that you will continue to hunt illegally until someone catches you - as you will be testing what you consider to be an unfair law - this post would probably not be too hard to find ?!

There seem to be all sorts of conflicting arguments as to why Fox hunting should continue - they are good for foxes, they are needed to control foxed...ad infinitum.... I have tried to engage with some of you as to why you hunt, but when challenged the arguments put forward just fall apart. The conclusion I've reached is that many of you should just admit that the sole reason you support fox hunting is because you find it fun, and are not actually bothered if an animal is killed so you can have that "fun" Some people find that reprehensible, actually 80% of the population do.
 
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SG, this thread is about the LACS proposal to ban all hunting. I myself didn't see it as an arena for another debate on foxhunting, although there is always a possibility that this will happen on this forum.
I go out with a bloodhound pack and in the past have hunted with drag packs. The drag pack once killed a grey squirrel in the pub car park before we set off (it was all over in a couple of seconds, pretty much before we'd realised what had happened). Other than that, I have never, personally, been involved in a hunt where anything has been killed.
Under the LACS proposal draghunting and bloodhound packs would also be banned. I haven't explicitly seen your views on this as most of the argument seems to have gone back to the 'killing animals' argument.
I'd like someone to explain - or at least try to explain - why it would be a good thing to ban the sort of hunting that I now take part in
 
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