Barbaric

Barton Bounty said:
BRB just going to stir my cauldron 🤣🤣


Cannot see half the comments as those are on my block list but fire away between yourselves, its sure entertaining for everyone else 🤣🤣🤣and all the same folks as usual 🤣🤣🤣
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I’ll leave this here.

Barton Bounty said:
Unfortunately in my street there are about bloody 12 of them so if i catch them on my bins again they are likely to end up scolded with hot sugary water or in the bin!
Absolutely sick to death, will have to jeyes fluid my garden furniture now!
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minesadouble said:
We will still be riding in 20 years and I'll tell you why. Because Horse Racing is an ENORMOUS generator of funds for the Government and is a sport heavily supported by the working class.
Whilst racing continues they will never be able to ban riding for leisure.

We have a large livery yard and I guarantee that the most cruel practices I see are not performed by those who compete or hunt but by those who kill their horses with kindness, those who cannot spot lameness and continue to ride their lame horses despite this being pointed out to them, by those who happily ride despite being told by the saddle fitter that they are far too heavy for their horse and by those who keep their old horse going when it is utterly desperate to be put down, I could go on.

There is far more cruelty practiced in the name of 'love' than in chastisement.
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You are not wrong but its more whataboutary. One wrong does not make a right. Perception of the general public is a big thing and if we are all seen as stuck up toffs who beat their horses its really not going to help the cause of riding in general and horse sports in particular. I honestly question myself if its right to use horses in the way we do. Thats someone who has owned and ridden for 40 odd years. If it makes me question things how does it make the average non horsey person feel?
 
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JFTDWS said:
Well no - the comments are based solely on the behaviour shown, the evidence.

The evidence shows a sustained assault by CDJ. The evidence shows a single strike without repetition during the event (the progress through the gate).

I have no doubt that both are part of a wider training system that relies on unnecessary force, but that is irrelevant in the assessment of the video evidence as isolated “provable” incidents.

ETA - for clarity, a single strike with an open exit for the horse - move forward, away from the unpleasant stimulus - is not comparable in psychological terms to the repeated application of force from which the horse has no easy means of escape. That’s the “sustained nature” I’m referring to, not whether or not these sorts of incidents happen once, rarely, frequently, daily or worse…
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I think we can agree that neither video shows horsemanship at its best but I think the current video shows a more nuanced situation than you seem to be implying, from the horse's point of view at least. The stimulus wasn't neutral for the horse and its response to it didn't get it immediate relief, it just meant it entered a situation it was clearly unhappy with (albeit one that was relatively brief) because the alternative was worse. CDJ didn't get what she wanted (probably never would have done), which is why she persisted, but if the horse here had continued to have doubts about the gateway I'm sure the aversives would have continued. The horse had already been hit by the rider at least once - several strikes are audible.
 
Burnttoast said:
I think we can agree that neither video shows horsemanship at its best but I think the current video shows a more nuanced situation than you seem to be implying, from the horse's point of view at least. The stimulus wasn't neutral for the horse and its response to it didn't get it immediate relief, it just meant it entered a situation it was clearly unhappy with (albeit one that was relatively brief) because the alternative was worse. CDJ didn't get what she wanted (probably never would have done), which is why she persisted, but if the horse here had continued to have doubts about the gateway I'm sure the aversives would have continued. The horse had already been hit by the rider at least once - several strikes are audible.
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I don’t have sound on the video right now, but I maintain that the behaviour - while poor training and generally unpleasant - is not comparable with the treatment of the horse by CDJ. I’m not sure why you seem so keen to make excuses for her conduct.

It’s not really helpful to bring in the hypothetical “if this horse hadn’t gone forward it would’ve been whipped more” argument because it didn’t happen and we can’t prove what would’ve happened in that circumstance. It probably would’ve been beaten, but it didn’t happen. It’s hypothetical. People can only be held accountable for what they have done, not what they might’ve done in a circumstance that didn’t arise.

I’d also like to point out that I described the stimulus in the video as “unpleasant”, not “neutral”. It clearly isn’t neutral, and I am not condoning the force used in the video. I am contesting the OP’s assertion that it’s comparable to the CDJ video.
 
Mrs. Jingle said:
This whipped up hysteria (pardon the pun) is exactly the type of thing that plays straight into the hands of those extreme activists that would have us all turn our horses out into the wilderness to live their 'best life' far from all interference from wicked humans.

People need to get a grip and protest genuine animal cruelty, there is enough of it around to keep us busy without this sort of pointless posturing.

I have seen and read on here far more inhumane and cruel practices condoned and even recommended on here. Would you believe I once read on this forum someone suggesting boiling sugar water thrown over unwanted neighbourhood cats, now that dear reader, is barbaric I am sure you will agree.😡
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Exactly! I think some people are in serious need of perspective. Is it particularly nice? No? But barbaric...... that's a bit much.

Also we have no idea of the context, what happened before this very short and edited clip was taken. I highly doubt this guy thought to give the horse in front a light smack on the arse just for the shear fun of it 🙄
 
I've never seen that type of whip used directly on a horse when out hunting. I'm not sure how much pain it could inflict (compared to a 'normal' or schooling/dressage whip), but my thoughts can be summarised as follows:
- As pointed out by others, hitting a horse's rear end when you are in danger of being double-barrelled by said horse is pretty stupid. That person is putting their own horse and themselves at risk of injury. There are other ways to get the horse to move forward - they will normally follow a horse that moves in front and even if that failed, I'd rather get off and lead than have my horse smacked.
- Doing this in front of people on foot - who were probably known to be sabs (or similar) - is utterly bonkers.
- Doing this if you are out with a hunt that has been regarded as in any way controversial, whether you consider this to be justified or not, is beyond bonkers.
As has been pointed out on many other threads, this is the sort of thing that puts fuel on the fire for those who want to see all types of hunting (including drag hunting and clean boot) banned.

I don't think that 'ranking' incidents, according to perceived level of unacceptability, is particularly helpful.
The behaviour shown in the video is not an acceptable way to treat a horse, IMO, but it's also just plain stupid in terms of the potential risks.
 
JFTDWS said:
I don’t have sound on the video right now, but I maintain that the behaviour - while poor training and generally unpleasant - is not comparable with the treatment of the horse by CDJ. I’m not sure why you seem so keen to make excuses for her conduct.

It’s not really helpful to bring in the hypothetical “if this horse hadn’t gone forward it would’ve been whipped more” argument because it didn’t happen and we can’t prove what would’ve happened in that circumstance. It probably would’ve been beaten, but it didn’t happen. It’s hypothetical. People can only be held accountable for what they have done, not what they might’ve done in a circumstance that didn’t arise.

I’d also like to point out that I described the stimulus in the video as “unpleasant”, not “neutral”. It clearly isn’t neutral, and I am not condoning the force used in the video. I am contesting the OP’s assertion that it’s comparable to the CDJ video.
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Where have I made excuses for her conduct? I think both videos are deplorable because they both show humans reacting with violence to having their will thwarted by a confused and fearful horse.
 
Burnttoast said:
Apparently I misunderstood a point you didn't actually make in your original comment (the objection to the semantics), though now you've made it I am happy to agree, largely.
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Ok, point was too implicit , so if anyone else wants the contrast clarifying:

The ways in which horses can respond to each other when trying to make herd mates do something (either feral or in fields), might well be perceived as ‘barbaric’ by humans, but barbaric is not an equine concept.

Moreover, if horses responded to humans by treating them like other horses, those humans might well experience the horse behaviour as bullying, or extreme brutality, savagery.

That does not make it so in either the intention or experience of the horse. Horses are far larger and stronger.

Return to the case in point:

that does not mean that humans cannot behave barbarously towards horses; or indeed towards each other, or more generally;

but in relation to this particular video there is NO evidence whatsoever of any ‘barbarism’, not in the human definition, nor whatever emotion that horse might be experiencing - simply observe the horse’s reaction and behaviour.

Furthermore, if the original complainant seeks a serious debate to convince others on welfare and ethical grounds that trail hunting is a cruel activity, then hysterical conflation like this will do the case no favours at all.
 
The clip is very short, perhaps one horse had baulked at the gate and turned around for another approach with another horse to persuade it - who knows. The whip was perhaps unnecessary but I wouldn't call that barbaric.

Twice in two days I have seen people throw insults and assumptions out about other users on here merely for not agreeing with them - its childish, people wont always agree with you - if they did we wouldn't have a forum
 
If you had your horse’s best interests at heart you wouldn’t take it out with the heavily sabbed blatantly illegal Warwickshire hunt in the first place. The poor horses have to navigate all of that just so that the riders can get their kicks.

Questions have even been raised in parliament re the fishy connection between the Warwickshire Police, the Warwickshire PCC (a member of the Countryside alliance) and the chief constable who has recently resigned.

All that commotion that the horses (and hounds) are subjected to on a regular basis while the humans face off against each other.
 
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JBM said:
It was clearly wrong to hit the horse
I feel sorry for the dog and horse
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So can I ask how you would have dealt with the situation?

Personally kicking out is one of my hard no's I tolerate from my horses. Obviously if another horse run up their back side or a loose dog barking/attacking is different and I certainly wouldn't blame my horse for lashing out in that situation. But just kicking out at something they are unsure of will not be tolerated as it is extremely dangers. So while yes I think the 2x strikes in the video are excessive and poorly timed but I personally would give my horse a firm smack and immediately after it kicked out.

It could be a passing person or dog walker or child! It isn't nice but horses are big animals that can cause a huge amount of damage and if I firm smack teaches it that this behaviour isn't OK then so be it. I would rather that someone get hurt to be honest.
 
Why is everyone focusing on just the rider at the back? What about the actual rider of the bay horse who pony kicked it in the ribs and whipped it more than once? If people are going to slate the fact the horse was whipped then it shouldn't just be narrowed down to the one person because he was not the only one who did it.

I personally don't think it's particularly bad if it's done to prevent a dangerous situation which could have far outweighed the consequences of having a tap to move forwards. We don't know that they hadn't been trying to get the horse through for a while before this video or if they tried it with a lead and it didn't work. No one knows but based on the video itself, if you're going to slate it, slate both of the riders as it was not just the one at the back who whipped the horse.
 
Tiddlypom said:
If you had your horse’s best interests at heart you wouldn’t take it out with the heavily sabbed blatantly illegal Warwickshire hunt in the first place. The poor horses have to navigate all of that just so that the riders can get their kicks.

Questions have even been raised in parliament re the fishy connection between the Warwickshire PCC (a member of the Countryside alliance) and the chief constable who has recently resigned.

All that commotion that the horses (and hounds) are subjected to on a regular basis while the humans face off against each other.
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I agree with you but what option is there? If the sabs leave the Warwickshire alone then they will continue to hunt foxes as they did pre ban. They often do so now in full view of sabs anyway so without them there they would just hunt . The sabs are not always perfect but something has to be done about the illegal hunting not to mention what ever dodgy relationship the Police have with the Warwickshire hunt. There is going to be a major scandal coming out at some point.
 
Bellaboo18 said:
I'd be interested to hear BBs explanation of the cat post. She could of course say she'd never dream of doing that to any animal 🤷🏼‍♀️
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When someone displays their true colours you’d better believe them.

Sandstone1 said:
I agree with you but what option is there? If the sabs leave the Warwickshire alone then they will continue to hunt foxes as they did pre ban. They often do so now in full view of sabs anyway so without them there they would just hunt . The sabs are not always perfect but something has to be done about the illegal hunting not to mention what ever dodgy relationship the Police have with the Warwickshire hunt. There is going to be a major scandal coming out at some point.
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The whole thing’s a mess, but I cannot comprehend why anyone would take their horse out to face that on a regular basis.
 
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GrassChop said:
Why is everyone focusing on just the rider at the back? What about the actual rider of the bay horse who pony kicked it in the ribs and whipped it more than once? If people are going to slate the fact the horse was whipped then it shouldn't just be narrowed down to the one person because he was not the only one who did it.

I personally don't think it's particularly bad if it's done to prevent a dangerous situation which could have far outweighed the consequences of having a tap to move forwards. We don't know that they hadn't been trying to get the horse through for a while before this video or if they tried it with a lead and it didn't work. No one knows but based on the video itself, if you're going to slate it, slate both of the riders as it was not just the one at the back who whipped the horse.
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I agree with you about the rider at the front not being innocent in terms of hitting the horse. But the main reason I focused on the rider behind was because they were putting their own horse - not to mention themselves - at risk of being kicked.
I've seen a couple of really serious injuries (one to a horse, one to the rider) resulting from horses kicking out behind. It's just very poor horsemanship.
 
Trickywooo said:
So can I ask how you would have dealt with the situation?

Personally kicking out is one of my hard no's I tolerate from my horses. Obviously if another horse run up their back side or a loose dog barking/attacking is different and I certainly wouldn't blame my horse for lashing out in that situation. But just kicking out at something they are unsure of will not be tolerated as it is extremely dangers. So while yes I think the 2x strikes in the video are excessive and poorly timed but I personally would give my horse a firm smack and immediately after it kicked out.

It could be a passing person or dog walker or child! It isn't nice but horses are big animals that can cause a huge amount of damage and if I firm smack teaches it that this behaviour isn't OK then so be it. I would rather that someone get hurt to be honest.
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Personally wouldn’t have my horse surrounded by THAT many dogs. It seems to me as if the horse attempted to warn the dog or is sore on that leg as it lifted its leg and held for a second 1/2 strides before.
From the short and incredibly shakey video it’s hard to grasp the whole picture but horses generally don’t kick out and make contact just because they felt like it.
If I took my dog out in a huge group and let them get in a situation where they felt they needed to bite to protect themselves I wouldn’t whip them twice
I would remove them from the situation and work on my training
It’s my fault for putting them in that situation not the animal.

Im sure the pain will make that horse feel more comfortable the next time a dog is that close to their leg
 
Barbaric is a horse being beaten to the ground by a man wielding a chain.

This was an artificial aid being used to urge a horse forwards when he was hesitating. We weren't riding him, maybe he was backing off long before he got to the gate and he was obviously slightly wary of the narrowness of the gap and the two people standing so close.

Maybe not a good idea to use any whip in front of Hunt Saboteurs.
 
JBM said:
Personally wouldn’t have my horse surrounded by THAT many dogs. It seems to me as if the horse attempted to warn the dog or is sore on that leg as it lifted its leg and held for a second 1/2 strides before.
From the short and incredibly shakey video it’s hard to grasp the whole picture but horses generally don’t kick out and make contact just because they felt like it.
If I took my dog out in a huge group and let them get in a situation where they felt they needed to bite to protect themselves I wouldn’t whip them twice
I would remove them from the situation and work on my training
It’s my fault for putting them in that situation not the animal.

Im sure the pain will make that horse feel more comfortable the next time a dog is that close to their leg
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Whilst I completely agree I would not intentionally put my horse in a situation they would not feel comfortable in, you cannot control every eventuality. It could be a jogger on a bridlepath next time or a child and whilst as the rider I would do my utmost to ensure my horse could not kick out, i.e. turning my horse to face what us bothering them, asking the person to stop etc, sometimes situations happen beyond our control and I do not want my horse's to believe this is an acceptable behaviour. I'm not talking about beating my horse. I am talking a single well timed smack. I personally think that is the lesser of 2 evils.
 
I think barbaric is a bit of a strong word to use, maybe unfair, or unreasonable.

But what I do think is barbaric is the way this thread has taken a turn for the worse. It's turning into a bit of a witch hunt and I think people should either agree and state why, or disagree and move on instead of making it personal or raking over old ground. Making someone feel uncomfortable, vilified or hounded doesn't help and is a bit of a unnecessary and unhealthy past time and of no benefit to anyone. It's makes me feel bit ick if I'm honest 🙁

We need to be kind to each other.

That's IMHO anyway FWIW.
 
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Birker2020 said:
I think barbaric is a bit of a strong word to use, maybe unfair, or unreasonable.

But what I do think is barbaric is the way this thread has taken a turn for the worse. It's turning into a bit of a witch hunt and I think people should either agree and state why, or disagree and move on instead of making it personal or raking over old ground. Making someone feel uncomfortable, vilified or hounded doesn't help and is a bit of a unnecessary and unhealthy past time and of no benefit to anyone. It's makes me feel bit ick if I'm honest 🙁

We need to be kind to each other.

That's IMHO anyway FWIW.
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I don't think it's funny at all Mrs J
 

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