Barefoot completely out of ideas

Probably very specific to my mare.. and our particular grazing...

Introduced feed again for autumn and back on daily TEN balancer. Three days in... usual trot on the driveway is exceptionally difficult. How bizarre!
 
Sorry for the lateness in reply. Below most recent photos of his feet.

RF
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LF
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RH
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LH
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Well they don't look how I expected, having been bare for two years, which would give you plenty of time to grow out the whole hoof capsules approx three times. You've got under-run heels and long toes, plus bullnosed hinds.

If you video his movement and then watch it in slo-mo, how does he land?
 
There seems to be a lot of high rasping going on in those pics? and poss bar/frog trimming?

You can see on the sole pic of his RH the ridge of sole around the apex of his frog - he appears to have pancake flat feet and presumably is trying to put out some support/protection.

I'd be interested to know what the trimmer has said/advised tbh. Given the bull nosed hinds after this amount of time have you had him tested for cushings etc?
 
I can't save this picture, draw lines on it and send it back to you. Pictures are worth a 1000 words.
The trim is inefficient to transition this foot. The wheels have been spinning for 2 years. There is too much pathology on the hoof to say otherwise. This horse needs a good balanced trim, with the homework in place to promote it, like thrush care, Promenade Walks on asphalt, minerals and most importantly, staying on top of the trim that is balanced, torque-free and promoted.
I'll try to help you see a few things....

Rf...Heels are long, unbalanced and pulled way forward of the back of the frog. The horse is walking on the back of the heel platforms smushing forward with every step. This impact also has a separate force that smashes back into the heel bulbs, as the bulbs sag down and end up replacing the heels (which they're not meant to) and creates the pointy heel bulbs. The heel bulbs should be two round balls tightly connected with a solid/straight back of the hoof. The back of the hoof is not supported, not developed or capable of a heel first landing, cause the heels are not where they are supposed to be to do their job.

LF...lateral shot. Look at the shape of the coronary band. As you follow back from the front wall profile, you see two small arches in its shape. Look at the run of the hoof wall below it, waved horizontally. The front wave is a jammed up toe pillar from too much length. The back wave is caused by a long/forward jamming heel. I like even less what's going on between them (breakout point for heel loss) This is going on in the RF as well, but more apparent here. Look at the LF solar, the groove on each side of the frog, one is steep and straight down, the other splatted outwards. That steep groove represents a jam straight down into the corium from the high side when it impacts. The imbalanced heels have dictated the impact coming forward on the high inside of the hoof. The high inside has dominated, what energy is left over, is splatted to the other side of the hoof as an afterthought. The inside remains dominant all the way to breakover, where it breaks over harder than the splatted side. The inside toe quarter can't take it, chips out and horse self trims to try and lower that side to find comfort. He's only a third of the way to comfort on the matter.

RH..now we're getting into some serious balancing trouble. The negative palmer angle created here may have been soreness in the fronts in the past and the horse standing under to compensate. The false sole has not been recognized vs. the live sole, so live sole not followed and voila....negative palmer angle. Look at the solar side of the RH. Layers of depth translating into a tall toe not recognized. The round lump at the bottom is still not live sole. That's a bar necklace, which is excess bar...not down to sole yet. Gives you an idea of how much this toe length has gotten away from the trimmer. This one is really hard on the ddfts. The medial/lateral imbalance is also apparent on the hinds as well.
My best advice is take a deep breath and find a good trimmer and start over again. One who can recognize and deal with these things. I know from your care and concern that you are a good candidate to try again. Most of your homework is in place already. But you've got to get a good balancing trim to free up pathology and move to work that trim to develop. Without that, you are just promoting pathology. Make sense?
These feet give me no indication of any metabolic problem going on at this time whatsoever....its the trim...the lack of balance and that will definitely make him sore into soft tissue all the way up his body. Once the development starts to happen, the horse will think he's got rock crushing feet long before he actually does. (bout 3 months for these hooves) You can go one way or the other. Get a good trimmer, stay on top of it and carry on and you'll get somewhere this time. I'm sure of it. Hope this helps.....
 
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I think it is possible to focus far too heavily on trim, (and possibly dangerous to prescribe a trim from a set of flat photos and no personal knowledge of the horse) which in my experience is below diet and work in importance in sound barefoot horses. If this horse has been barefoot two years and in regular work (I haven't read the whole thread in detail), then I would be quite surprised, given the flat feet and bull nosed hinds, if it does not have underlying metabolic issues.
 
I haven't had him tested for cushings. He is a 10 year old ex racer. I don't know what other metabolic issues he could have? I have used a couple different trimmers my first was brilliant but she couldn't keep coming to me as lived far away. I then used a trimmer she recommended to me and now I use a trimmer situated at my yard. I am open to suggestions if anyone wants to private message me.
 
ktj1891 said:
I haven't had him tested for cushings. He is a 10 year old ex racer. I don't know what other metabolic issues he could have? I have used a couple different trimmers my first was brilliant but she couldn't keep coming to me as lived far away. I then used a trimmer she recommended to me and now I use a trimmer situated at my yard. I am open to suggestions if anyone wants to private message me.
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He could have Cushings, ems, low level epsm, leaky gut syndrome, wheat intolerance, grass intolerance, alfalfa intolerance, carbohydrate intolerance ...

But if he's been in work and barefoot two years, then his feet are unexpectedly flat and bull nosed and there is something more than a trim problem going on, I think.

I assume you have him on a 'barefoot' mineral supplement, and if so I would definitely test for Cushings and then if that shows nothing, and you are determined to keep him barefoot start exclusion testing his diet, starting with radically restricting grass.
 
paddy555 said:
yes but it has made them look very pretty.
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not pretty to me!

OP I know he is a TB and not old but those feet are not normal after 2 years especially as I know you have been feeding good spec minerals (forageplus and others iirc). I really would get him tested for cushings as a start.
I'd agree that it is probably more than just a trim issue but I don't think the trimming is good either- I don't know anyone except a farrier that would be rasping hoof wall that high. Where did they do their training (pm if prefer).


Contrastingly to missyclare the bullnosed feet and flatness are shouting metabolic issue to me. Has he ever had hoof xrays? They are often associated with reverse rotation of the pedal bone which can indicate that the lamellar connection isn't 100%. I know it was one of cptrayes pet theories although it didn't actually ring true with my lad - bull nosed fronts, negative palmar angle but no metabolic issue behind that.

I'm actually not sure about shoeing him now looking at those feet, because long term those angles may not improve in shoes and he will get other injuries/issues if that is the case.

If you can't get the right help to you could you afford to send him to rockley? Where horses seem to resolve their own pathologies without any trimming these days so I don't actually agree with missyclare that this is trim generated and that sorting the trim will sort the issue.
 
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ycbm said:
He could have Cushings, ems, low level epsm, leaky gut syndrome, wheat intolerance, grass intolerance, alfalfa intolerance, carbohydrate intolerance ...

But if he's been in work and barefoot two years, then his feet are unexpectedly flat and bull nosed and there is something more than a trim problem going on, I think.

I assume you have him on a 'barefoot' mineral supplement, and if so I would definitely test for Cushings and then if that shows nothing, and you are determined to keep him barefoot start exclusion testing his diet, starting with radically restricting grass.
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He is currently in copra and linseed with equivita balancer with vit e and mycosorb. He's on extra mag ox and having a course of aloe Vera.

Since the week before last he has been in on my stoney yard area during the day and out on grass track with hay at night. Last week he was in 24/7 on hay and this week he is in on soaked hay. Not any difference so far so I am going to look to turn back out next week over night in during the day until he is gradually back out full time again on his track.
 
I struggled with a less than adequate trimmer - minimal interference type found a trimmer who knew how to deal with issues (also TB ex racer who evented for a number of years) then sat in a paddock for a number more 4 ish feet did not improve until trim put in place to encourage remediation of underlying issues. Took between 1-2 years for feet to develop correctly.

Was on a well balanced diet the whole way through grazed 24/7 with plenty of road work.

people on here seem so focused on diet and not touching much of the feet - sometimes its not always the answer in my experience and I've a few transition now under the same trimmer.
 
maccachic said:
I struggled with a less than adequate trimmer - minimal interference type found a trimmer who knew how to deal with issues (also TB ex racer who evented for a number of years) then sat in a paddock for a number more 4 ish feet did not improve until trim put in place to encourage remediation of underlying issues. Took between 1-2 years for feet to develop correctly.

Was on a well balanced diet the whole way through grazed 24/7 with plenty of road work.

people on here seem so focused on diet and not touching much of the feet - sometimes its not always the answer in my experience and I've a few transition now under the same trimmer.
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That's because we have a marvelous blog done by a yard which rehabs lame horses which shows time after time after time that if you fix the diet and work the horse appropriately, the horse knows how to balance its own feet, get rid of false sole, bring back the toe and every other intervention that trimmers from other countries tell people to do.

Maybe your horse just needed two years? It's not that uncommon for an off the track racer. There are so many variables that could have changed along with your trim change, including your own confidence to work the horse appropriately, the weather, and a zillion other things. We'd have to have been there to be convinced that the trim was the crucial factor in your one horse's improvement (unless of course your previous trimmer was actively doing something thing wrong). For your own one horse, I've done a dozen of my own, four lame ones, and seen the same number with close friends. Just like what must now be two hundred or more Rockley horses, whose progress is all recorded online, diet and work was the answer every time.
 
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Yes, that blog is pretty influential and obviously not all horses are on such surfaces so that might need some trimming help along the way and from the ones I know most ex rockley horses are now trimmed. But- given that they used to trim they do report now that horses are more comfortable if untrimmed and allowed to shed excess structures when they don't need them and that allowing the excess structures to remain do not cause further hoof growth to be compromised.
 
ester said:
Yes, that blog is pretty influential and obviously not all horses are on such surfaces so that might need some trimming help along the way and from the ones I know most ex rockley horses are now trimmed. But- given that they used to trim they do report now that horses are more comfortable if untrimmed and allowed to shed excess structures when they don't need them and that allowing the excess structures to remain do not cause further hoof growth to be compromised.
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Yes, plenty of horses need trimming. I'd like to make it clear that I'm not advocating no trimming, I'm just explaining why on this forum we are so keen on diet and work. And why I in particular trend to bridle when an overseas trimmer comes onto threads and starts telling the owner how to trim, and that the trim will solve all the problems, having seen only a few flat photos. Last week comments on a trim being good were made by what sounded like a pro trimmer when all that had been published were xrays. It would be unethical if a paid trimmer in this country made such comments about another trimmer's work, and I think it's unethical for any paid trimmer to make such comments. Sorry for the rant :)
 
ester said:
Yes, that blog is pretty influential and obviously not all horses are on such surfaces so that might need some trimming help along the way and from the ones I know most ex rockley horses are now trimmed.
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Some are with no problem, some have been trimmed with devastating results, some drag trimmers halfway across the country to find one that will trim their horse sympathetically, some don't trim even though a conservative trim would do no harm because they are scared of the consequences and most are constantly asking if anyone knows of a 'good' trimmer. It's not a straightforward or easy subject.

I now have someone after two disastrous people who thought the best way to get a pretty hoof was to trim it that way but it took a while. Where a good person will help is that they should be going through all the diet options, talking about how your horse is moving, raising red flags about the bull nosed hinds.

I have 2 ex racers, one an ex rockley horse, one not but has had other issues.

When the non Rockley one was off work earlier this year, his feet didn't look unlike the pictures posted. Not so much the bullnosed (though a tiny bit that I thought I could see) but the fronts did go flat and the heels were underrun and coming forward. Started in hand walking and I got a new angle of growth, started ridden work and have an even more acute angle. It will look completely different when it gets to the floor.

Re the timescale. My Rockley horse was there almost 5 months and I think of that set up as fast tracking the improvement so longer if he was at home. I then needed a few more to get him comfortable over all surfaces. He would never be a horse that would happily gallop over big stones, too much damage was done at too young an age but he would move briskly and happily which was more that he ever managed in shoes.

I always think in new feet, so hope to see a improvement in the first wholenew hoof capsule but it's the second to gets me to where I need to be
 
It's interesting what you say about the second hoof capsule :).

I should perhaps have said the ones I know of are lightly trimmed but yes some have struggled to find someone to do the right balance and have had a few chats with my trimmer about it in the past and what is/isn't feasible when they not on that sort of track in normal life. I do know with my lad that more mileage = more growth so not trimming at all doesn't really work for him but the trimming that happens at all is literally just taking the toes back- he would naturally have a tendency towards forwards slip.
 
I have found exactly the same with work Criso. I bought two four year olds last year and people who don't understand barefoot would have said that both needed shoes because they were uncomfortable on stones. In fact what they needed was work, and once broken and ridden regularly they both developed rock stomping feet (one much sooner than the other, who is metabolically challenged with epsm) which also grew much, much bigger. If they had been shod, I doubt that development which made them bigger from the coronet down, and much better suited to their bodies, could have happened.

As for trim, one has been trimmed twice in eighteen months, the other twice in fifteen months. I took the square cornered toes off one a month ago to make them look more conventional, and he promptly put them back again so I won't be bothering with that again :) Trim was of almost no importance in improving the feet of these two horses.
 
Well I have decided to get him tested for cushings so he is having that done on Tuesday. If that comes back negative I have still have no idea what to do. There are so many variables and whilst it's all time and no and consuming and a lot of stress I would continue. But for me at the end of the day he's still so uncomfortable over stones and it's not fair on him so I am still looking to shoe in front. Life is too short and I want him comfortable and to have fun with him.
 
ktj1891 said:
Well I have decided to get him tested for cushings so he is having that done on Tuesday. If that comes back negative I have still have no idea what to do. There are so many variables and whilst it's all time and no and consuming and a lot of stress I would continue. But for me at the end of the day he's still so uncomfortable over stones and it's not fair on him so I am still looking to shoe in front. Life is too short and I want him comfortable and to have fun with him.
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I think you are making the right decision for you both. Some horses are just too darned difficult, and you have already tried two years. Have fun with him when he's moving happily again :)
 
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