Barefoot cruelty

Naturally said:
The problem with making claims like the ones in your post, is that you risk looking foolish if you are making similar mistakes.

It isn't only barefoot horses who get abcesses, not by a long shot. It is perfectly possible for horses to work hard and long on the roads without shoes, either by proper conditioning of the feet or use of hoof boots. Shod horses can also be footy on stones.
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Um, have to completely disagree. My shod horses have never ever been footy. When I tried barefoot, they were all very sore yes I did it under guidance of decent farrier and would never do it again. FWIW, my shod horses have never had absceses either. I personally think if you ride on roads at all, you need shoes on, at least fronts. So it is cruel not to shoe if you expect horses to do that type of work.
 
hessy12 said:
I personally think if you ride on roads at all, you need shoes on, at least fronts. So it is cruel not to shoe if you expect horses to do that type of work.
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Isn't that a bit sweeping when plenty of horses cope perfectly well working on roads barefoot?
 
hessy12 said:
Um, have to completely disagree. My shod horses have never ever been footy. When I tried barefoot, they were all very sore yes I did it under guidance of decent farrier and would never do it again. FWIW, my shod horses have never had absceses either. I personally think if you ride on roads at all, you need shoes on, at least fronts. So it is cruel not to shoe if you expect horses to do that type of work.
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Your shod horses are never footy but some shod horses can struggle with certain surfaces your shod horses have never had an abbcess fine my BF horse has never had an abbcess my BF does road work probally four days a week he's sound working about one hour a day .
I am shortly going to up his work and go hunting and see how that goes.
Just because you/ your horses where not suited by BF does not mean my horse can't work on the road very happily.
Why is it cruel for a sound horse to work on a surface it's happy with , that's a sweeping and silly statement.
 
Agree Goldenstar; Mine work quite happy on the road too and at 22 is better than he was at 18 and shod :) like a spring chicken lol.

Hessy12 why do you think your horse was sore without shoes?
 
hessy12 said:
Um, have to completely disagree. My shod horses have never ever been footy. When I tried barefoot, they were all very sore yes I did it under guidance of decent farrier and would never do it again. FWIW, my shod horses have never had absceses either. I personally think if you ride on roads at all, you need shoes on, at least fronts. So it is cruel not to shoe if you expect horses to do that type of work.
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Well I disagree with you so what we gonna do?
 
hessy12 said:
Um, have to completely disagree. My shod horses have never ever been footy. When I tried barefoot, they were all very sore yes I did it under guidance of decent farrier and would never do it again. FWIW, my shod horses have never had absceses either. I personally think if you ride on roads at all, you need shoes on, at least fronts. So it is cruel not to shoe if you expect horses to do that type of work.
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I respect your opinion.

I have a question.....

What happens if you find yourself in the situation that some do, where shoes are no longer an option?
 
Tally HO I like your galloping herd thingy too my skills don't run to extras like that , I like Oberons bat best though I love bats honest I do and I work my horse on the road without shoes wierd that's what I am.
 
hessy12 said:
Um, have to completely disagree. My shod horses have never ever been footy. When I tried barefoot, they were all very sore yes I did it under guidance of decent farrier and would never do it again. FWIW, my shod horses have never had absceses either. I personally think if you ride on roads at all, you need shoes on, at least fronts. So it is cruel not to shoe if you expect horses to do that type of work.
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Um, have to completely disagree. I have worked with lots of different breeds and types of horses and have known plenty to get abscesses, SHOD and UNSHOD. FWIW my unshod horses have never had abscesses nor when they were shod did they ever have abscesses. I personally think if you ride horses on the roads you shouldn't have shoes on, not even fronts. So it is cruel to shoe if you expect horses to do that type of work.
 
hessy12 said:
Um, have to completely disagree. My shod horses have never ever been footy. When I tried barefoot, they were all very sore yes I did it under guidance of decent farrier and would never do it again. FWIW, my shod horses have never had absceses either. I personally think if you ride on roads at all, you need shoes on, at least fronts. So it is cruel not to shoe if you expect horses to do that type of work.
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I hope this post is remembered the next time the Taliban are accused of telling people that they are mistreating their horses by shoeing them.

Hessy12 you do not know what you are talking about.

Your farrier would be far from alone among farriers if he did not know how to advise you to get your horses comfortable.

Cruel to do roadwork without shoes on - don't make me laugh! I hunt mine and he's the soundest horse in the field on rubble farm tracks and miles and miles of road (3 hours mostly roadwork last Saturday).

Please do get your facts right before you tell people what is and is not cruel.
 
I have two barefoot horses both out at grass 24/7 and have been for a few years however, we always boot up to ride as the tracks are not grassy like the field. People just need to understand that a horses hooves adapt to there environment. You cant ride a horse carefree on stoney tracks barefoot if the horse spends its days living on soft ground its just common sense. That's where folks fall down IMHO. But hey its not their fault its a learning process, I love it!
 
hessy12 said:
FWIW, my shod horses have never had absceses either. I personally think if you ride on roads at all, you need shoes on, at least fronts. So it is cruel not to shoe if you expect horses to do that type of work.
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Arnie has never had an abcess since his shoes have come off 11 months ago (judging by the first page we are Unshod rather than Barefoot cos its the farrier that does his feet :D). He had plenty when he was shod??

I guess I am just lucky - mind you, I obviously dont do too much roadwork because so far his feet are not down to bleeding stumps. I'm only doing on average 15 miles a week;):p. We fit it in around our SJ competitions and lessons. Oh, and around our xc sessions. Thats if we are not off down the beach for a gallop.
 
I feel awfully cruel now poor pony with a mean owner who won't let him have any shoes.... and expect him to go on the road :eek: :( :D
....








.. oh and no abcesses here yet ;) ... the shod horse has had a corn however :p
 
Goldenstar said:
Tally HO I like your galloping herd thingy too my skills don't run to extras like that , I like Oberons bat best though I love bats honest I do and I work my horse on the road without shoes wierd that's what I am.
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Yay! (I just copied and pasted from a website I shall not name and it worked!!!!) Try it.... copy and paste the code off my sig and it should work!
 
Oberon said:
Yep. When the UKNHCP decided they didn't want to run the forum any more, we set up The Phoenix as a place to brainstorm and share info etc :).

http://phoenixhorse.myfastforum.org/index.php?sid=aef674bec72d73a590928efbdc336097
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Thanks for that I thought it probably was but good to know for sure.I was a member of the original UKNHCP forum,but can't remember if registered for the new one,will pop in and check when have more time:)

Goldenstar said:
It's a good place to go but dare I say it less Er fun than here !!!!
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The problem is I have a really low tolerance level for stupidity and ignorance (I know a fault on my part but we are who we are;)) so barefoot threads on here invariably drive me up the pole.

hessy12 said:
Um, have to completely disagree. My shod horses have never ever been footy. When I tried barefoot, they were all very sore yes I did it under guidance of decent farrier and would never do it again. FWIW, my shod horses have never had absceses either. I personally think if you ride on roads at all, you need shoes on, at least fronts. So it is cruel not to shoe if you expect horses to do that type of work.
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The perfect example of my thoughts above,I can feel my tolerance levels decreasing as I type:rolleyes:

I notice your siggy mentions a love for appys hessy12?? I must introduce you to my spotty lad.You'll be amazed of course as you see him trotting past you on the ROAD with his BARE tootsies:eek:
I'll also introduce you to my welsh cob.Shame you couldn't have met him when he was shod as you clearly prefer that,you'd have known it was him BTW as he would have been the one shuffling along landing on his toes with every step.Now though he'll be the one just behind my mad spotty (spotty is always ahead as he's a right boy racer despite being terribly uncomfortable due to no shoes of course:rolleyes:) trotting along with his equally bare feet on the *shock horror* roads!!:eek:

Never really had an issue with abscesses BTW,only dealt with one or two and don't think having shod or unshod feet were relevant TBH.

ridefast said:
I personally think if you ride horses on the roads you shouldn't have shoes on, not even fronts. So it is cruel to shoe if you expect horses to do that type of work.
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My thoughts as well.Bet my lad having been barefoot most of his life won't suffer the joint and degenerative conditions that many others do.Long term health of this nature is actually my first and foremost reason for being barefoot and for staying so.
 
hessy12 said:
I personally think if you ride on roads at all, you need shoes on, at least fronts. So it is cruel not to shoe if you expect horses to do that type of work.
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Really? My unshod TB would beg to differ on that one - especially when she is happily striding out down steep tarmac roads while shod horses are slipping and shuffling down the edge of the road trying to stay upright. I actually don't have any problem with shod horses at all, but I think it's a bit of a sweeping statement to say that horses doing roadwork need shoes!
 
My bloody BF horse grows his feet quicker the more road work he does, really inconsiderate he is.

Studs who needs studs mine has suction cups can't add a pic but he jumped up to 1m at the weekend in what was slippery going for the shod horses, he didn't slip once.

Oh and he hunts, events, dressages and does road work even at trot. He is also a Tb who HAD flat feet.

If you want to check your diet is balanced I have found www.feedxl.com really useful.
 
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hessy12 said:
Um, have to completely disagree. My shod horses have never ever been footy. When I tried barefoot, they were all very sore yes I did it under guidance of decent farrier and would never do it again. FWIW, my shod horses have never had absceses either. I personally think if you ride on roads at all, you need shoes on, at least fronts. So it is cruel not to shoe if you expect horses to do that type of work.
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Sorry to join the bandwagon Hessy, but this post of yours epitomises the misconceptions so many people have about shod horses.
Shoes don’t protect horses feet they weaken them, cause damage and allow injury and serious disease to develop. Your horse is never footy because it cannot feel its feet. Of course it will have had abscesses just like any other, but, unless they are very severe a shod horse won’t feel them. Barefoot horses feel everything, like they are supposed to do. The feet feel the ground so they know where it is safe to put their feet. Shod horses just crash down on anything. They don’t feel as the blood supply is restricted so the feet are numb. The restriction of the blood supply causes weak lamina and poor development of the all important digital cushion, filing the already thin sole makes it thinner and weaker.
 
Just because I walk carefully on stones barefoot doesn't mean I am lame. I made an effort last summer to be barefoot myself as much as I could - I have flat arches one is non existant, at the end of summer my arches had improved a lot and I didn't get as sore a fett from standing around as I would normally. I am seriously considering investing in some Vibram 5 fingers or something similar.

Does any one else find there horse knowledge trickels through to there own life? Bf as above, my diet is now a lot more natural, I am a bit more careful about what I put on my skin etc
 
maccachic said:
Just because I walk carefully on stones barefoot doesn't mean I am lame. I made an effort last summer to be barefoot myself as much as I could - I have flat arches one is non existant, at the end of summer my arches had improved a lot and I didn't get as sore a fett from standing around as I would normally. I am seriously considering investing in some Vibram 5 fingers or something similar.

Does any one else find there horse knowledge trickels through to there own life? Bf as above, my diet is now a lot more natural, I am a bit more careful about what I put on my skin etc
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Yes, the more you get into this stuff the more it affects everything you do.
 
Pale Rider said:
Shoes don’t protect horses feet they weaken them, cause damage and allow injury and serious disease to develop. .
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A sweeping statement. POOR shoeing causes that. Good shoeing doesn't do much damage although it does prevent the horse from developing foot structures.

Pale Rider said:
Your horse is never footy because it cannot feel its feet. Of course it will have had abscesses just like any other, but, unless they are very severe a shod horse won’t feel them. Barefoot horses feel everything, like they are supposed to do. The feet feel the ground so they know where it is safe to put their feet. Shod horses just crash down on anything. They don’t feel as the blood supply is restricted so the feet are numb. .
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This I refuse to beleive. There is evidence that blood flow is reduced but i've seen no evidence that it makes their feet numb and sensation-less. It's outlandish statements like this that put peoples back up about barefoot!


Pale Rider said:
The restriction of the blood supply causes weak lamina and poor development of the all important digital cushion, filing the already thin sole makes it thinner and weaker.
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Blood flow restriction cannot be that bad else their feet would eventually fall off. It's use, or lack, of that dictates growth and strength. The body is very much 'use it or loose it'. If it's not stimulated, it won't grow. That also applies to blood vessels, so that's probabaly why the blood flow is less: the shoe doesn't 'restrict' or 'kill off' blood supply. Instead, as it's not being used and flexed as it should, it's not needed so it atrophies.



Genetics DO play a part in foot quality and it's silly to say otherwise. It's like saying all horses will grow a big thick winter coat if you force them. Some just won't: they'd die in the freezing temps! Ditto poor teeth. Or rubbish manes and tails.

Some horses are born with excellent feet, need very little conditioning to make them into rock crunchers and can take all the nutritional rubbish you throw at them. Others are born with poor, weak feet that need a lot of time and effort put into them to make them any use, and careful management of conditionng and feeding to allow them to work barefoot. The only thing that dictates which is which is genetics and breeding!

I've got 2 youngsters I've had since not much more than yearlings. One has 'genetically good feet'. From a baby he's been rock crunching, beautiful neat little feet that are concave, no cracks, flares or splits. Doesn't really matter what he eats or the conditioning he does, he's happy over everything.

I have another who's had the exact same lifestyple and similar feeding and conditioning. His feet are nowhere near as good. They're much more flat and flared and prone to chipping. And he's much more sensitive to diet.

Neither have ever been or are likely to be shod. I will need to put a lot more time and effort into Roo's feet than I ever did Piper. It doesn't mean he CAN'T work barefoot it just means, due to genetics, he is starting at a massive disadvantage and it's going to be a damn sight harder :rolleyes: Roo is a TB x.......

I'd have said that their genetic ability to deal with feed and diet, and the affect it has on their feet, is a far bigger factor in foot quality that the foot genetics directly (for want of a better term). That's where TB and such fall down, genetically: they don't deal with food as well as native and good doers (which is clearly obvious from the fact they're not good doers!) and therefore have many more issues with their feet.


And incidently I have a horse who hunts, common rides and competes barefoot. I've not had a shod horse in many many years. Piper will easily do 20miles road work a week, much of it in trot. Oh, and some canter: little bare tootsies are fabulous shock absorbers ;)
 
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Horses for courses?
My TB's lose a front shoe and the moment they do, it is as if I have inserted tin tacs in their frogs / soles.....(wimps?)
There is a place for bare foot, and that is in the hands of those who are terribly experienced and have a knowledgable bare foot farrier. Of course we have all had native ponies and cobs who have feet like iron, but also we see animals like TB's who have been shod since they were yearlings and sufffering if they are bare foot. I am riding a new horse - 5 year old just backed IDXTB who has only had one set of shoes in his life, when he was 4. I rode him out to try (last month) and he was foot sore, so for now have put fronts on him only - and he seems OK on his hinds. We have a stoney yard - so at an immediate disadvantage.
Shoes like bits - were introduced many centuries ago (as part of civilisation, I suppose.....) we can possibly enshew both - but, I am guessing they were developed for reason - and our forebares who relied on the horse for going about everyday business, other than recreation, I suppose evolved a method that worked for them? Going barefoot should never be seen as a cost cutting measure (she says when her farrier charges £70 per set plus VAT) and when we had Pointers in training we were having new sets every 3 weeks - ouch! But I understand (from those who do it) that bare foot horses need attention about every 4 weeks too - and I expect that comes in at circa £50 - £60 too......?
Let the debate rumble on - and so glad that this one has - at is controversial, and glad it has been allowed to runs its course!
 
It's been 6 weeks since my sensitive wBxtb had her shoes off. I bought her from a field ontop of a moor in Lancashire as a 3 year old and the first thing she did when arriving was stand on a stone and limp to the yard. Since then she has had an excellent diet full of hoof suppliments etc etc, various blood tests for you name it and she is now 6. The farrier is very pleased with her feet, her sole and frog have hardened, but she still dosent want to walk through the stream across the stones to the yard, so as soon as the hoof angle improves under the new managementand is shod I will look forward to a horse that will happily walk through the stream and across the tracks in the woods because horses should walk happily. Ancient Arab's wrapped leather around their horses feet for a reason and Romans invented the hippo sandal around the same time as they started to put in hard roads.
 
Kallibear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pale Rider
Shoes don’t protect horses feet they weaken them, cause damage and allow injury and serious disease to develop. .

A sweeping statement. POOR shoeing causes that. Good shoeing doesn't do much damage although it does prevent the horse from developing foot structures.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pale Rider
Your horse is never footy because it cannot feel its feet. Of course it will have had abscesses just like any other, but, unless they are very severe a shod horse won’t feel them. Barefoot horses feel everything, like they are supposed to do. The feet feel the ground so they know where it is safe to put their feet. Shod horses just crash down on anything. They don’t feel as the blood supply is restricted so the feet are numb. .

This I refuse to beleive. There is evidence that blood flow is reduced but i've seen no evidence that it makes their feet numb and sensation-less. It's outlandish statements like this that put peoples back up about barefoot!



Originally Posted by Pale Rider
The restriction of the blood supply causes weak lamina and poor development of the all important digital cushion, filing the already thin sole makes it thinner and weaker.

Blood flow restriction cannot be that bad else their feet would eventually fall off. It's use, or lack, of that dictates growth and strength. The body is very much 'use it or loose it'. If it's not stimulated, it won't grow. That also applies to blood vessels, so that's probabaly why the blood flow is less: the shoe doesn't 'restrict' or 'kill off' blood supply. Instead, as it's not being used and flexed as it should, it's not needed so it atrophies.



Genetics DO play a part in foot quality and it's silly to say otherwise. It's like saying all horses will grow a big thick winter coat if you force them. Some just won't: they'd die in the freezing temps! Ditto poor teeth. Or rubbish manes and tails.

Some horses are born with excellent feet, need very little conditioning to make them into rock crunchers and can take all the nutritional rubbish you throw at them. Others are born with poor, weak feet that need a lot of time and effort put into them to make them any use, and careful management of conditionng and feeding to allow them to work barefoot. The only thing that dictates which is which is genetics and breeding!

I've got 2 youngsters I've had since not much more than yearlings. One has 'genetically good feet'. From a baby he's been rock crunching, beautiful neat little feet that are concave, no cracks, flares or splits. Doesn't really matter what he eats or the conditioning he does, he's happy over everything.

I have another who's had the exact same lifestyple and similar feeding and conditioning. His feet are nowhere near as good. They're much more flat and flared and prone to chipping. And he's much more sensitive to diet.

Neither have ever been or are likely to be shod. I will need to put a lot more time and effort into Roo's feet than I ever did Piper. It doesn't mean he CAN'T work barefoot it just means, due to genetics, he is starting at a massive disadvantage and it's going to be a damn sight harder Roo is a TB x.......

I'd have said that their genetic ability to deal with feed and diet, and the affect it has on their feet, is a far bigger factor in foot quality that the foot genetics directly (for want of a better term). That's where TB and such fall down, genetically: they don't deal with food as well as native and good doers (which is clearly obvious from the fact they're not good doers!) and therefore have many more issues with their feet.


And incidently I have a horse who hunts, common rides and competes barefoot. I've not had a shod horse in many many years. Piper will easily do 20miles road work a week, much of it in trot. Oh, and some canter: little bare tootsies are fabulous shock absorbers



The horse’s hoof is designed to expand when it takes weight and contract when it lifts its foot and the weight comes off. This is because the hooves are like ancillary mechanical pumps which assist in the circulation of blood back up the leg, lessening the workload of the heart. By putting a steel shoe on the hoof whether it is done well or not, has the effect of completely restricting the expansion and contraction of the hoof. If it cannot expand, then the volume of blood allowed into the capsule is restricted. Thermal imaging of a shod hoof compared to that of an unshod hoof shows that the flow of blood to the hoof is restricted. How on the one hand you can say poor shoeing damages the foot, but good shoeing only prevents the horse from developing foot structures, which isn’t much damage is a complete contradiction. Well developed foot structures are essential for a healthy hoof, particularly the digital cushion, which in every shod hoof I’ve dissected has indeed suffered a high degree of atrophy. The hoof wall is easily removed from a shod horse, but requires a lot of effort pliers and a hammer from an unshod hoof, further evidence of weak under developed lamina, which results from shoes, well applied or not.
Take shoes off of a shod horse and just watch it, or put shoes on and watch them. You can see the numbing effect of shoes. Of course their feet are numb, shod horses don’t know they’ve got laminitis until its severe, it is certainly not an outlandish statement and it may well put peoples back up, but this is a reaction to doing something which deep down we all know is fundamentally wrong.
Genetics may well play some part in hoof quality, but far less than you are trying to suggest. When a horse is born it doesn’t have a hoof as such, but a mass of tissue and receptors which rapidly forms a hoof based on what is required by the foal in the environment it has been born into.
Basically, the reasons people give for shoeing are frankly ridiculous and a mere cover-up, for poor management in every respect.
I’m not surprised by the fact that you have a horse which can do all you say barefoot, that’s what they are all supposed to do and could do given the opportunity.
 
The attitude you see in those last two paragraphs is what puts people who are thinking about it off going barefoot. Arrogant & holier than thou.
A (very well known & praised on here by the taliban) farrier who does about 2/3 barefoot has been coming to 2 horses on my yards. He told one of them that he uses the hoof tester every time on all his barefoot clients but doesn't for the shod horses because the owners don't care if their horses feet hurt. To me that says either
1) Either the hoof testing is useful but he doesn't do the best for 1/3 of his clients - the 3rd he thinks don't care about their horses - shocking attitude.
2) It isn't really usefull but he panders to that holier than thou attitude that so many barefooters have.
3) He lied, he does use it on all his client but still panders to "that" attitude.
Whichever it is it doesn't exactly fill me with confidence about his ethics & so I would not have this much praised & well known practitioner near my horses barefoot or not.
My horses have variously been unshod/fronts only/shod depending on the horse & it's needs at the time. My horses have a "barefoot" diet even though both are shod at the moment because I believe it's a good "whole horse" diet. If anyone can manage to make me feel like running away screaming they are not going to convert very many people to try barefoot are they.
It's a shame because this thread had actually started to develop into one of the most rational debates I have seen - ok the nearest I have ever found.
 
dressedkez said:
Horses for courses?
My TB's lose a front shoe and the moment they do, it is as if I have inserted tin tacs in their frogs / soles.....(wimps?)
There is a place for bare foot, and that is in the hands of those who are terribly experienced and have a knowledgable bare foot farrier. Of course we have all had native ponies and cobs who have feet like iron, but also we see animals like TB's who have been shod since they were yearlings and sufffering if they are bare foot. I am riding a new horse - 5 year old just backed IDXTB who has only had one set of shoes in his life, when he was 4. I rode him out to try (last month) and he was foot sore, so for now have put fronts on him only - and he seems OK on his hinds. We have a stoney yard - so at an immediate disadvantage.
Shoes like bits - were introduced many centuries ago (as part of civilisation, I suppose.....) we can possibly enshew both - but, I am guessing they were developed for reason - and our forebares who relied on the horse for going about everyday business, other than recreation, I suppose evolved a method that worked for them? Going barefoot should never be seen as a cost cutting measure (she says when her farrier charges £70 per set plus VAT) and when we had Pointers in training we were having new sets every 3 weeks - ouch! But I understand (from those who do it) that bare foot horses need attention about every 4 weeks too - and I expect that comes in at circa £50 - £60 too......?
Let the debate rumble on - and so glad that this one has - at is controversial, and glad it has been allowed to runs its course!
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Many, like mine many self trim to an extent and I only have a trimmer every 8 weeks to tidy up. Cost is £40, much cheaper, but thats not the reason I took mine barefoot; He had been kicked very very hard in the stomach by a farrier ( who has since emigrated, good job ) he was and still is petrified of them, but my trimmer lady, he falls asleep :) Anyhow, as he is now 22 he has a new lease of life being barefoot, he has no joint supplements other that linseed and often does pleasure rides and gallops on the beach........I'm hoping for many more years with him

One of my liveries has had heart bars on her horse for nearly a year at a cost of £130 every 6 weeks :( ( has been lame for two years with soft tissue damage in the foot ) she has finally took the plunge and had his shoes off, and although footy he is booted all round for hacks and again has a spring in his step and is much happier, its only been 6 weeks since they came off so early days, but fingers crossed he will now grow a good healthy hoof
 
maccachic said:
Just because I walk carefully on stones barefoot doesn't mean I am lame. I made an effort last summer to be barefoot myself as much as I could - I have flat arches one is non existant, at the end of summer my arches had improved a lot and I didn't get as sore a fett from standing around as I would normally. I am seriously considering investing in some Vibram 5 fingers or something similar.

Does any one else find there horse knowledge trickels through to there own life? Bf as above, my diet is now a lot more natural, I am a bit more careful about what I put on my skin etc
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OMG do it! Get the Vibrams... best thing I ever did for my feet. My little toenails have actually GROWN back!!!! I have endless fun painting five toenails on each foot now rather than painting a little toenail ON.... is that gross? Sorry, didn't mean to be :)
 
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