Barefoot cruelty

tallyho! said:
Well I think if you can't find the info you need on the internet to successfully take your horse barefoot if you want, or shod properly if you want then... you ARE stupid :D
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Speaking of which - I am a member of a barefoot horse Yahoo group so I can learn about stuff on an international scale.

I posted a question about pea gravel as I was going to experiment with it this winter......

And I was well and truly patronised by some of the members there :D

It was hilarious what they were coming out with to me :D
 
Ludoctro said:
My friend insisted on keeping her mare barefoot because "it's was natural" the poor horse tip toed about the place constantly and always seemed to have white line disease , after a number of years of me going on at her she put shoes on it, horse is perfectly happy now and has not had white line disease in over 12 months. Yes ok so the odd little kids pony ok barefoot but a proper horse in work expected to hack out etc along roads needs shoes and I think the way her horse was proved it. To me anyway.
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I laughed when I read this I trotted on the road for half an hour yesterday followed by my new and opened mouthed groom who said I had to see that to believe it.
 
Goldenstar said:
I aggree that the owners need to learn to take responsiblity for their horses health and particularly feet it's much to easy when a horse is shod to book the appointment write the chq and sail until something goes wrong.
It's unfair to blame farriers for all shoeing issues when they are shoeing horses on on suitable diets or shod without break.
However I disaggree with you on EDT after one bad experiance and one disaster that left the horse impaired for ever with EDT no one but a dentistry trained vet I trust is going near my horses mouth.
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I agree with your post Paula, but it highlights that the opposite can also be true. :) It is also unfair to blame trimmers or the barefoot method when the diet issues aren't addressed or the horse is overworked too soon, and to be fair I have seen some horrendous shoeing in my time which can be much more damaging as a permanent fixture to the hoof than a trim that will grow out.

I have had bad experiences with an EDT and a vet doing dentistry, so much depends on the skill of the individual professional as much as qualifications.

At the end of the day providing we all do our best for our horses and learn as much as we can we then its worth sticking with the professional that we feel is doing the best for your horse whether vet/dentist/trimmer or farrier. :)
 
Paulag said:
The fact that I had my horse shoed was once used here as evidence that I mistreat my horse. It's a kind of bullying really. I think some horses do absolutely fine barefoot and it's a good option for them. But it does worry me that it's a cheaper option and so may be used to save money in horses that it doesn't suit.

My horse came to me with a very sore mouth and slightly sore front feet barefoot. She was literally going "ouch, ouch, ouch" across the stony bits in the yard. I'm on a mostly private yard and the majority of the horses there are barefoot and trimmed by our farrier. He told me mine needed shoes.

I would have left her barefoot if she had been ok, but no way would I use a trimmer. If the farrier didn't do it, I'd find another farrier. I also got the vet to do her teeth. Farriers and the vetinary profession we're created and regulated to stop the sort of terrible cruelty that happened when some local bloke used to shoe and treat his own and other people's animals.

Paula
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I am not saying and have never said that it's wrong to shoe horses I have a shod one myself but I know there are reasons he did not do well BF ( he's a horse who has been very ill in his past and has been on a lot of nasty medication)
However while you you have shod your horse so you can work her if she was here I would be trying to work out why she was not coping with out shoes your horse if I remember rightly is young so should not had have a huge work load I would be curious in your shoes to work out what was making her feet sore.
The thing is once you have seen a full sized competion type horse working without shoes it makes you really curious about why he can and others can't .
Each horse is different and when you remove the shoes different things happen so you need to learn how to manage it that's where a good trimmer is invaluable.
 
Ludoctro

My friend insisted on keeping her mare barefoot because "it's was natural" the poor horse tip toed about the place constantly and always seemed to have white line disease , after a number of years of me going on at her she put shoes on it, horse is perfectly happy now and has not had white line disease in over 12 months. Yes ok so the odd little kids pony ok barefoot but a proper horse in work expected to hack out etc along roads needs shoes and I think the way her horse was proved it. To me anyway.

A 'proper horse'

Head, desk, thump. Lol.
 
Goldenstar, has it. All horses are different and different things happen when you take the shoes off. That really is where the skill comes in.
If your horse is not coping with how you are managing barefoot, it's not that the horse won't cope if you get things right for that horse. If you cannot find the key, shoe it.
 
Well thats cleared things up... Only UNproper horses can go barefoot/unshod/shoeless (B.U.S.). I always wondered why some could and some couldn't... now I know :D

The most difficult questions always have the simplest answers!
 
cptrayes said:
America is a huge place, many parts of which have weather much wetter than ours. It is nonsense to say that horses in this country cannot work barefoot, there are thousands of horses doing it.
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I'm not sure i said that horses COULD NOT go barefoot - if i had said i wouldn't be keeping my horse shoeless behind and all the way round in the winter (when she's only worked twice a week).. It is possible, some horses cope REALLY well but other's really do not.. and sometimes the horses welfare is slightly over looked - for ex) when the horse is hopping lame walking to the field but it's ok because it's going through the "transition process".. you see my point?

In response to your other quote (i don't know how to quote twice - my bad) the horse was not already laminitic, it was trimmed by the trimmer and then got mechanical laminitis due to the severity of laminal breakdown the pedal bone sank.
 
Pale Rider said:
Goldenstar, has it. All horses are different and different things happen when you take the shoes off. That really is where the skill comes in.
If your horse is not coping with how you are managing barefoot, it's not that the horse won't cope if you get things right for that horse. If you cannot find the key, shoe it.
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Exactly.
 
I used to think it was cruel to 'put a horse through' the 'barefoot transition', then I did it with one of mine who's legs and feet were a bit of a mess and who was lame in shoes, it was a learning curve but now I have a sound horse with great feet - and he's a 'proper' horse who competes, schools, xc's, hacks over all terrain and does roadwork *gasp* Who'd have thought it, eh? Now none of mine wear shoes.

The problem with everything is not the actual act itself, it's the people behind it, the people who pull shoes while still feeding sugar rich diets and stuffing their fat ponies full of grass so they hobble over stones are not representative of the true 'Barefoot' people who make calculated, educated decisions regarding the care of their horses with a view to improving the horses wellbeing. Please do not lump us all in together.

My horse has been lame once after his shoes were pulled and it was when he was trimmed by my farrier, a friends horse had the same thing happen with another farrier, hence we both use a local trimmer who offers support and assistance with our management as well as trimming the feet - I'm sorry but I've yet to meet a farrier who acknowledges that horses can be unshod and be in 'proper' work. Yet funnily enough my vet does.... :)
 
Pale Rider said:
Goldenstar, has it. All horses are different and different things happen when you take the shoes off. That really is where the skill comes in.
If your horse is not coping with how you are managing barefoot, it's not that the horse won't cope if you get things right for that horse. If you cannot find the key, shoe it.
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For once, I totally agree with you............
 
SpottyTB said:
I'm not sure i said that horses COULD NOT go barefoot - if i had said i wouldn't be keeping my horse shoeless behind and all the way round in the winter (when she's only worked twice a week).. It is possible, some horses cope REALLY well but other's really do not.. and sometimes the horses welfare is slightly over looked - for ex) when the horse is hopping lame walking to the field but it's ok because it's going through the "transition process".. you see my point?

In response to your other quote (i don't know how to quote twice - my bad) the horse was not already laminitic, it was trimmed by the trimmer and then got mechanical laminitis due to the severity of laminal breakdown the pedal bone sank.
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I don't think its right to pass off a lame horse as going through the transition. The welfare of the horse is paramount in any system. To remove the shoes before providing a proper diet, is getting the transition completely the wrong way round. If a horse is totally sore just taking the shoes off, indicates how bad the feet are and how much damage the shoes are covering up. Hoof boots should always be part of a transition. Don't forget that good feet are not trimmed into existance, its diet and exercise that form good healthy feet.
 
No, no, no, Tallyho & quite a few more of you, you're missing the point. An informative, sensible discussion isn't any good. Far more constructive if we all relate the details of screw ups, use that one experience to form a conclusion, split into two camps & judge each other, preferably with accusations of bullying for good measure. Sensible, balanced, open minded posts are spoiling the spirit in which this thread was started. Please, can both sides stick to the original topic. i.e. all barefoot owners condone half crippled horses & angle grinder wielding psychos, & bully people into believing its natural. Don't hijack this thread with rational views!
 
I had a tb mare out of racing. Had shoes taken off because she wasnt in enough work to warrent having them on.

Shock horror, the farrier trimmed them for me. Even more shock horror she was fed on normal horse food. And "transitioning phase"??? She had them taken off and that was the end of it.
 
littlelegs said:
No, no, no, Tallyho & quite a few more of you, you're missing the point. An informative, sensible discussion isn't any good. Far more constructive if we all relate the details of screw ups, use that one experience to form a conclusion, split into two camps & judge each other, preferably with accusations of bullying for good measure. Sensible, balanced, open minded posts are spoiling the spirit in which this thread was started. Please, can both sides stick to the original topic. i.e. all barefoot owners condone half crippled horses & angle grinder wielding psychos, & bully people into believing its natural. Don't hijack this thread with rational views!
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Well, I'm for that.:)
 
Scarlett said:
I'm sorry but I've yet to meet a farrier who acknowledges that horses can be unshod and be in 'proper' work. Yet funnily enough my vet does.... :)
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I disagree with this.

My farrier is superb (I use a remedial farrier) and recommends horses to have a break from shoes every year, at the very least. My big horse doesn't have great feet (slowly getting better thanks to a lot of management changes and gradual changes in shoeing) and even he gets a break from shoes. He had a month out after hunting finished in the spring and was much better for it. When the time came to put them back on, farrier actually told me to carry on without given the amount of work he was doing. My new horse came to me fully shod and farrier took his backs off 3 months ago. The horse never felt a thing and is cubbing without back shoes. Farrier regularly tells me what great, strong feet the horse has and never goes near them with a rasp or to trim them. He simply said I might find I want shoes when we get into hunting proper in the winter.

Incidentally... this horse gets a handful of Safe & Sound and hay! The big one gets linseed, magox, brewers yeast, yea-sacc, seaweed... and still has pretty rubbish feet whether shod or not.

Surely the whole thing is dependent on the horse and what suits him? My big one doesn't suit being without shoes when he's working, or I don't have the time or inclination to do it. The little one does.
 
littlelegs said:
No, no, no, Tallyho & quite a few more of you, you're missing the point. An informative, sensible discussion isn't any good. Far more constructive if we all relate the details of screw ups, use that one experience to form a conclusion, split into two camps & judge each other, preferably with accusations of bullying for good measure. Sensible, balanced, open minded posts are spoiling the spirit in which this thread was started. Please, can both sides stick to the original topic. i.e. all barefoot owners condone half crippled horses & angle grinder wielding psychos, & bully people into believing its natural. Don't hijack this thread with rational views!
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:D :D

In all seriousness though threads like this do nothing to help the horses, or their owners. If someone has no shoes on their horse and is struggling or has shoes on and is worrying about whether they should take them off then all threads like this do is make them reluctant to seek help for fear of being told they are cruel or stupid or starting WW3.

I've just had shoes removed with the vets supervision and have purchased some hoofboots. I've had some lovely help and comments from people on here but fear of getting a kicking makes me reluctant to post much. But like 95% of people on here, I am only interested in what is best for my horse and couldn't give a nark about dogma, if my horse is better without shoes then I will do everything I can to support her, if she needs boots so be it, if she needs shoes then she'll get them.

I can't imagine that there are many people out there who knowingly put their horse through discomfort for the sake of some misplaced ideals, but there are probably a lot tearing their hair out unsure of what to do for the best or where to turn for unbiased advice. It is a shame that this forum can't provide advice and support from all angles without it having to deteriorate into a big us and them war.....
 
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Pale Rider said:
I don't think its right to pass off a lame horse as going through the transition. The welfare of the horse is paramount in any system. To remove the shoes before providing a proper diet, is getting the transition completely the wrong way round. If a horse is totally sore just taking the shoes off, indicates how bad the feet are and how much damage the shoes are covering up. Hoof boots should always be part of a transition. Don't forget that good feet are not trimmed into existance, its diet and exercise that form good healthy feet.
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Alarming amount of agreement with you today Pale Rider IMO a horse crippled when it's shoes are removed is not a healthy horse .
One thing that has amazed me was how little a role trimming plays in the BF horse my TB ( in transition I hate that word but can't think of any other way to put it) has just had his first trim since April.
My WB ( BF a year) has just had a trim he only needed that because he got a cough and was out of work a while I think it was feb last time he was done.
I tell my trimmer that he should really call himself a trimmer but an advisor or hand holder as he seems to do very little trimming.
 
You're as bad pale rider, an earlier post of yours agreed some horses need shoes, you're ruining the well known myth that all pro barefoot people prefer a horse to be uncomfortable for the duration of its life than have it shod!
And you kat, your post should have been either 'i've seen the light, can't believe how cruel all shoeing is' or ' I tried but I feel so guilty I left my horse hobbling for a decade to fit in with natural ideals'
 
littlelegs said:
You're as bad pale rider, an earlier post of yours agreed some horses need shoes, you're ruining the well known myth that all pro barefoot people prefer a horse to be uncomfortable for the duration of its life than have it shod!
And you kat, your post should have been either 'i've seen the light, can't believe how cruel all shoeing is' or ' I tried but I feel so guilty I left my horse hobbling for a decade to fit in with natural ideals'
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oops sorry Miss - will try harder next time


*toddles off to practice being more argumentative and divisive*
 
littlelegs said:
You're as bad pale rider, an earlier post of yours agreed some horses need shoes, you're ruining the well known myth that all pro barefoot people prefer a horse to be uncomfortable for the duration of its life than have it shod!
And you kat, your post should have been either 'i've seen the light, can't believe how cruel all shoeing is' or ' I tried but I feel so guilty I left my horse hobbling for a decade to fit in with natural ideals'
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You see you are allowed to sit on the fence and do what suits you that means here I am about to go on exercise one unshod two wearing front boots and one shod
I am sad that people are not asking advice because they fear getting a virtual ear bashing but people should remember a virutal ear bashing can't harm you can can help you to clarify what it is you think, and you can just ignore posts that are rude.
It's too easy always to take an totally opposing view to a post you don't like or aggree with that how things get polarised.
That's a shame mainly for the with people closed minds and their horses.
 
I agree with OP. We have a very pretty Andalusian living locally which is barefoot. We're on very flinty and stoney lanes, very little road work but equally no forest tracks/ grass headlands either. The horse is always very footy, and the rider is frequently seen walking her home after a ride because she is sore.

This is not to say some horses don't manage perfectly well bare foot, no one disputes that, but in cases where the horse is clearly feeling its feet the owners should not carry on regardless.
 
Polotash said:
I agree with OP. We have a very pretty Andalusian living locally which is barefoot. We're on very flinty and stoney lanes, very little road work but equally no forest tracks/ grass headlands either. The horse is always very footy, and the rider is frequently seen walking her home after a ride because she is sore.

This is not to say some horses don't manage perfectly well bare foot, no one disputes that, but in cases where the horse is clearly feeling its feet the owners should not carry on regardless.
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Well then do something about it, don't moan to us.
 
chestnut cob said:
I disagree with this.

My farrier is superb (I use a remedial farrier) and recommends horses to have a break from shoes every year, at the very least. My big horse doesn't have great feet (slowly getting better thanks to a lot of management changes and gradual changes in shoeing) and even he gets a break from shoes. He had a month out after hunting finished in the spring and was much better for it. When the time came to put them back on, farrier actually told me to carry on without given the amount of work he was doing. My new horse came to me fully shod and farrier took his backs off 3 months ago. The horse never felt a thing and is cubbing without back shoes. Farrier regularly tells me what great, strong feet the horse has and never goes near them with a rasp or to trim them. He simply said I might find I want shoes when we get into hunting proper in the winter.
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I wasn't posting that to start an argument, believe me, it's just my own experience of the farriers I have tried since taking my horses shoes off. My farrier was supportive of my horses shoes being pulled as he too agrees they need a break from shoes, but he assumes that no shoes on my lad meant no work. He does trim horses who are unshod and in work - the horse I part loan is trimmed by him at her owners request - but his style of trim didn't suit my boy so I tried a trimmer who was recommended to me and her style did. Sound horse = happy me.

Does it really matter if it's a farrier or a trimmer who looks after the horse if the horse is sound and the feet in good condition?

My other horses are now unshod, if the day comes where I don't feel it's working for them then I'll shoe. We sometimes get too blinkered by certain things to really see whats going on and treat the horses as individuals...

We also all need to have a little more respect for other peoples decisions for their horses IMO. There are many things in the horse world I find cruel - draw reins, gag bits, badly fitting saddles, lack of turnout, etc etc - all of which I feel can cause suffering to a horse, thats no different to a footy horse walking over stones IMO yet I don't feel the need to berate people for their choices.
 
SpottyTB said:
for ex) when the horse is hopping lame walking to the field but it's ok because it's going through the "transition process".. you see my point?
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that isn't really doing it proper though is it? if the horse is really that sore a sensible owner would be providing protection during the transition in such a scenario
 
I have to laugh because for the past 2 mornings my husband has been out scrutinising every movement from Abba while I'm riding. He was an assistant in Saudi for 18 months. The trainer there pulled the shoes on everything except when they ran. He said some were so crippled and it was breaking his heart trying to keep horses right. So my wanting to get the horses out of shoes and still working was met with "no horse of mine will be in pain". Trust me my husband can see the slightest blip in a gait. He's been pleasantly surprised but insists that these horses must be comfortable. I'm not sneaking a lame one by him. He's getting more involved in the diet and the mechanics of correct movement and the individual requirements.

So from my end I know I can't be blinded by stupidity. I also wish he'd let me do just a tad more work with Abba. I can feel her under me and she so badly wants to do something but knows she can't! LOL! He wants her work to be a slow steady progression to an overall sounder healthy horse. So far so good, but we won't say never with anything.

Quick question with this Fast Fibre. Do you all add a vit and min supp or just flax and mag or what. I think we can get that here.

Terri
 
You would have to feed the fast fibre in the amount for a horse of your size of horse my horses would never need that much which is why I won't use FF I prefer to add vets and mins I chose to staight food.
 
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