Barefoot cruelty

[Equilibrium Ireland]

Ok GS thanks because I do straights as well. That's the kind of info I need. I feed a "cheap chaff" which is straw and grass, minimal startch and add oats accordingly. Not much of those at the moment. Then I add salt, flax, mag, and a vit and min supp that has a good yeast complex in it with other digestive things.

Terri

 

[cptrayes]

In response to your other quote (i don't know how to quote twice - my bad) the horse was not already laminitic, it was trimmed by the trimmer and then got mechanical laminitis due to the severity of laminal breakdown the pedal bone sank.

This just isn't mechanically possible. If the hoof wall was trimmed right off and the horse was standing nowhere but on its sole, there would be nowhere for the pedal bone to sink TO, it would be sitting on the frog, on the floor. There would be no disruptive forces on the laminae whatsoever, they would in fact be completely unloaded. There is only loading on the laminae when there is loading of the hoof wall on the ground.

The horse might be sore, but it physically could not cause mechanical separation of the laminae to trim the hoof wall short, and anyone who says it could has not done hoof dissections.

I do not believe that a trim can cause laminae breakdown in an otherwise uncompromised foot, sorry

 

[Daytona]

Well i as i said Proves it to me, i like to make my mind up on what i see with my own eyes , not what others tell me, i did once try my last mare without shoes and she could harldly walk across the yard, i did leave it a couple of month as thought she would improve but it did not so stuck her shoes back on. So between than and my friends horse with the white line issues, id only shoe my horses now.

But everyone is entitiled to there views and how they justifie them to themselves, im not saying im right or wrong , im just saying that s my view on this matter.

 

[Littlelegs]

I agree Goldenstar, it is about what's best for the horse, but I just don't get the impression that's why the thread was started. It seemed to be more about forming group stereotypes based on individual experience of the local numpty who's gone about things the wrong way. Rather than an informative discussion.

 

[Always Henesy]

Sorry but I think it is all about what is best for the horse Shod/unshod - does it really matter? As long as it suits the horse and it is happy and healthy.
Now my TB is currently unshod (long story somewhere on here) - he was out on loan and a farrier nailed through the white line and fitted a set of heart bar shoes - BADLY

Now my farrier is an absolute treasure - I have used him for years. He was the first person after me to say that he needed a period of no shoes. His poor little feet needed to recover.
So I get the most wonderful support on here and loads of advice from the barefooters. At no point have they berated me for maybe one day having him shod again. They have just been all round really lovely.

My lad is currently growing beautiful new feet, has put on about 25 kilos in weight, is happy, pain free and I couldn't be happier.

Surely we are all just interested in what is the best foot management of each INDIVIDUAL horse? Whether that's shod/unshod/barefoot/stilletto heels or wellies?

 

[WestCoast]

Well I think if you can't find the info you need on the internet to successfully take your horse barefoot if you want, or shod properly if you want then... you ARE stupid

If you think the big steaming pile of opinions, anecdotes and propoganda for supplement companies on the Internet is any kind of useful evidence. . .

This is fun isn't it.

Paula

 

[pip6]

I can only work from personal experience. When mine don't need shoes, they are taken off. I have a barefoot broodmare who consistantly got abscesses in the winter, until I tried putting a set of shoes on, & she then didn't get any. So when the fields go soft, she is shod until they improve, no abscesses yet (after 4 winters barefoot with). I understand other horses would react differently, but that's her.

I sent another mare on breeding loan to a very good stud this summer. Whilst there a retired farrier did barefoot trimming on her (I did not know they had this ethos). She wasn't happy, & didn't take, so I got her back in July. When I collected her she had just been 'trimmed' a few days before. She was so lame & in pain she could barely put one foot in front the other even on grass. No wonder she never took there. The walls of her feet had been rasped into oblivion, & there was evidence of an infection (they claimed the farrier had caught her coronet band with his rasp because she had moved - not surprised with the state of her feet he must have been causing her major pain) in the coronet band. I had to wait months with her on the softest surfaces for her feet to grow before my farrier could fit a set, she showed instant relief. The gaps between the hoof wall where they had been rasped up & the shoe were huge. 6 weeks on she has had a second set fitted, they look better, but still don't meet the shoe.

My horse was used to being without shoes (was for 2 years when she had her foal), a basic trim was all she needed. She did not need any remedial work to convert her to 'barefoot'. I think the people who run the stud are good people, but have been mislead by this farrier into thinking they are doing good by 'going barefoot' & are causing suffering. To see a horse so lame & not question the actions of the 'professional' means I would never leave another horse there, or recommend that others do. My girl may well be unshod again over the winter (trimmed by my farrier), but I will never use someone who purports to use barefoot principles. My 4 yr old is unshod, & shows no signs of needing shoes yet (trimmed by my farrier). My broodmare will have shoes over the winter, & go barefoot for 3/4 of the year. It's just what works for mine.

 

[Pale Rider]

Ludoctro

Well i as i said Proves it to me, i like to make my mind up on what i see with my own eyes , not what others tell me, i did once try my last mare without shoes and she could harldly walk across the yard, i did leave it a couple of month as thought she would improve but it did not so stuck her shoes back on. So between than and my friends horse with the white line issues, id only shoe my horses now.

But everyone is entitiled to there views and how they justifie them to themselves, im not saying im right or wrong , im just saying that s my view on this matter.

Well, as we're all entitled to our opinion, based on what you have said, you probably won't like mine.

If you take the shoes off a horse and it is so bad on it's feet it cannot walk across the yard, whatever has gone on with this horse's management has been grossly detrimental. Steel shoes have only covered up what has been going on. It's really sad to think that when the feeling is allowed back in the feet, that feeling is nothing but pain.

Whether it's inappropriate diet, exercise or the fact that, filing an already thin sole or the atrophy of the digital cushion, the feet are crippled, not irrevocably in most cases, rehabilitated properly. These feet are like the bound Chinese foot, mutilated by constriction.

 

[Bikerchickone]

Well i as i said Proves it to me, i like to make my mind up on what i see with my own eyes , not what others tell me, i did once try my last mare without shoes and she could harldly walk across the yard, i did leave it a couple of month as thought she would improve but it did not so stuck her shoes back on. So between than and my friends horse with the white line issues, id only shoe my horses now.

But everyone is entitiled to there views and how they justifie them to themselves, im not saying im right or wrong , im just saying that s my view on this matter.

This is exactly why I sent my lad to Rockley, I didn't want him to have to be uncomfortable and I knew Nic had surfaces there to help him, the pea gravel for example. There's no way I could watch either of mine struggling to walk and then justify it as being a normal transition period. Surely this is when boots are needed, or the shoes need to be put back on and the diet adjusted before another attempt is made, with better preparation ideally.

I don't care what anyone else does with their horse's feet provided the horse is comfortable and the rider is happy. I like to think I'm approachable if anyone wants to know anything about our journey, but I wouldn't slam anyone who didn't want to try it. We all want the best for our horses, there's no need to argue that point is there?

Sorry Littlelegs I can't do argumentative very well!

 

[Goldenstar]

If you think the big steaming pile of opinions, anecdotes and propoganda for supplement companies on the Internet is any kind of useful evidence. . .

This is fun isn't it.

Paula

it's about perception isn't it .
When I first started coming on H+HO the BF threads intrigued me you had people ,clearly experianced hunting horses BF to me that was wow rocking back on my heels stuff that made me question everything I had been taught.
I read the threads and when a good time came had a go.
Useful evidence is normal owners hunting doing dressage whatever with no shoes on the horses .
You Paulag have a thing about people feeding supplements that's your view that's fine but when asking advice when taking a horse BF I would rather listen to someone whose hunting their horse with no shoes than someone who has a shod 4yo .
It's been a big learning curve for me it's a year now and shortly I will try to do the thing that shocked me into opening my mind to it I am going to take a BF horse hunting.




My trimmers wife does endurance rides BF that's really impressive.

 

[tallyho!]

If you think the big steaming pile of opinions, anecdotes and propoganda for supplement companies on the Internet is any kind of useful evidence. . .

This is fun isn't it.

Paula

Yes! I always have fun reading your posts Paula!

 

[WestCoast]

it's about perception isn't it .

You Paulag have a thing about people feeding supplements that's your view that's fine but when asking advice when taking a horse BF I would rather listen to someone whose hunting their horse with no shoes than someone who has a shod 4yo .

I don't have a 'thing' about supplements, that's the point. Noone seems to be able to point me to that 'thing' that provides any evidence for them. What I do have is training in evidence based research in nutrition hence the question 'where is your evidence?' will continue to be asked. Whether my horse is shod or not is a complete irrelevance. I took advice from a professional, not a random opinionated person on a forum.

P xxxx

 

[Goldenstar]

it's about perception isn't it .

You Paulag have a thing about people feeding supplements that's your view that's fine but when asking advice when taking a horse BF I would rather listen to someone whose hunting their horse with no shoes than someone who has a shod 4yo . [\quote]

I don't have a 'thing' about supplements, that's the point. Noone seems to be able to point me to that 'thing' that provides any evidence for them. What I do have is training in evidence based research in nutrition hence the question 'where is your evidence?' will continue to be asked. Whether my horse is shod or not is a complete irrelevance. I took advice from a professional, not a random opinionated person on a forum.

P xxxx

That your horse is shod is not an irrelevance to someone seeking advice about BF.
It's interesting to learn how others get BF to work and it genuinely can work I know that now as a fact because I have got a fully in work BF horse I can see him from here.
But I also have a shod one ( will have another go with him next year ) and to in ( that awful word again) transition who knows at this stage whether they will go back into shoes at times it will depend on where their lives take them .
I really still after all this time and reading all these threads dont understand why BF is such an emotive subject.

 

[Littlelegs]

The thing is though Paula, if you have knowledge of human nutrition, you'll know in the majority of cases, brittle nails, dry skin etc in humans comes down to diet. Therefore is it not reasonable to assume horses may well be the same? Good barefoot research does need doing, but until someone stumps up the cost of a comprehensive study, the evidence will remain anecdotal. And tbh, I have little regard for qualifications alone anyway. Experience is what I respect.

 

[Goldenstar]

me too , qualifications can be a complete irrevance.

 

[Daytona]

Ludoctro

Well i as i said Proves it to me, i like to make my mind up on what i see with my own eyes , not what others tell me, i did once try my last mare without shoes and she could harldly walk across the yard, i did leave it a couple of month as thought she would improve but it did not so stuck her shoes back on. So between than and my friends horse with the white line issues, id only shoe my horses now.

But everyone is entitiled to there views and how they justifie them to themselves, im not saying im right or wrong , im just saying that s my view on this matter.

Well, as we're all entitled to our opinion, based on what you have said, you probably won't like mine.

If you take the shoes off a horse and it is so bad on it's feet it cannot walk across the yard, whatever has gone on with this horse's management has been grossly detrimental. Steel shoes have only covered up what has been going on. It's really sad to think that when the feeling is allowed back in the feet, that feeling is nothing but pain.

Whether it's inappropriate diet, exercise or the fact that, filing an already thin sole or the atrophy of the digital cushion, the feet are crippled, not irrevocably in most cases, rehabilitated properly. These feet are like the bound Chinese foot, mutilated by constriction.

Who knows pale rider but she clearly was uncomfortable, that horse was on a diet recommend by blue chip the whole time i had her - not idea if it was good or bad as i am not a nutritionist, but i can only assume as it was recommended by there nutritionist it cant of been that bad , and my farrier always said she had good feet. And as for exercise well she was your aveerage amatuers show jumper, i certainly never cut corners on her manangement, i try to give my horses the best of the best

Perhaps some horses that have been shod from a ealry age just are just not suitable to walk around shoeless and be expected to carry us across hard surfaces.

People living in the jungle and under developed countries quite happily walk about with no shoes and dont seem to find it sore - does that mean because im human i can do the same, i think if i tried to walk through the jungle with no shoes on id be in agony - what makes this any different..? Its about adapting to what your use to.

 

[Wagtail]

The thing is though Paula, if you have knowledge of human nutrition, you'll know in the majority of cases, brittle nails, dry skin etc in humans comes down to diet. Therefore is it not reasonable to assume horses may well be the same? Good barefoot research does need doing, but until someone stumps up the cost of a comprehensive study, the evidence will remain anecdotal. And tbh, I have little regard for qualifications alone anyway. Experience is what I respect.

Just wanted to say here, that I have awful nails and very slow growing hair. I have tried every supplement under the sun and it makes no difference. My sister, who obviously was brought up on the same diet has always had really strong nails and hair that grows unbelievably fast. She can cut it short and have it down to her waist within 6 months. She is a vegetarian, I am a pescatarian, so diets not that different even now.

ETA: My skin is lovely though, no wrinkles, my sister is younger and has much dryer skin and quite a few wrinkles.

 

[Oberon]

a diet recommend by blue chip the whole time.

There's your answer

We often find tinkering with the diet is the key to a comfy barefoot horse.

Not many of us feed according to company's advice any more as we just couldn't get the horses comfy that way .

 

[cptrayes]

I took advice from a professional, not a random opinionated person on a forum.

P xxxx

I'll bet women hundreds of years ago chewed willow when they had a headache on the advice of random opinionated people Paula

Just because something is anecdotal doesn't mean it's not true

 

[Kat]

that horse was on a diet recommend by blue chip the whole time i had her - not idea if it was good or bad as i am not a nutritionist, but i can only assume as it was recommended by there nutritionist it cant of been that bad

Everyone would do well to bear in mind that "in house" nutritionists are not independant. They are paid by the feed company they work for and can only recommend that company's products and therefore any diet plan will involve suggesting the product from their range that most closely matches your horse's requirements, even if that product is actually quite unsuitable. It is like taking financial advice from a bank employee, and should probably have similar warnings attached.

It is always worth checking their advice. We had a nutritionist visit our yard to advise recently, she made recommendations that every horse should be on their brand of feed. I'm no feeding expert but I checked her recommendations against the spec for the feed that I was already using (which the nutritionist had never heard of) and found that all of the nutrients she had advised my horse needed more of were contained in higher quantities in the feed I was using than the one recommended, so I didn't switch. But lots of people did....

Feed company reps can give you interesting ideas and input but you shouldn't follow their recommendations blindly - get several and compare what they say and what they recommend and compare the products against each other.

 

[Pale Rider]

I worked for a feed company for a couple of years a long time ago. We were encouraged to sell their feed of course and diss. other brands.
What went into them was whatever was cheap and laced with molasses, add a few aromatic herbs and Bob's your uncle, top spec feed.

I don't do that anymore.

 

[tallyho!]

I don't have a 'thing' about supplements, that's the point. Noone seems to be able to point me to that 'thing' that provides any evidence for them. What I do have is training in evidence based research in nutrition hence the question 'where is your evidence?' will continue to be asked. Whether my horse is shod or not is a complete irrelevance. I took advice from a professional, not a random opinionated person on a forum.

P xxxx

The thing is, barefoot has very little evidence of the type you seek but a wealth of anecdotes. I feel this is the wrong place for you and you will continue to be frustrated with the lack of evidence.

 

[Equilibrium Ireland]

And you will find balancers such as Blue Chip full of soya. FWIW my break away from big feed companies was due to being called crazy in the head. How dare I suggest soya might be playing a part in IR type symptoms in my horses that went away in 2 weeks when soya was taken out of the diet. My previous easy breeding mare went to not catching as soon as miracle balancer were introduced. The money I spent on testing was ridiculous. All came back healthy. First year back after ditching soy, pregnant straight away. Soya plays havoc with people too.

Can't stand balancers myself. Too much crap for most horses even though you feed in cups. Feed companies love pushing that. Save money, feed less. All the nutrition you need in one easy bag. Thing is it's a very easy experiment that's not harmful to your horse.

I'd well believe that mare couldn't achieve bare while on soya balancers. Mine would be absolutely crippled.

Terri

 

[Littlelegs]

I agree Wagtail, I'm the exception the other way, my diets nutritionally awful yet I'm healthy. You'd be the human equivalent of the horse that needs shoes! Whereas if I had problems, diet would be the first thing to look at.

 

[ester]

As a science boff/geek I would love for there to be more evidence, unfortunately there isn't right now (partly because so few people stand to make much money out of it!) so I have to make do with my own personal case study. (back to the n=1 again )

Ludoctro if you only walked a little way every day in the jungle you would develop suitable callouses though... the potential is there for you to cope with it just as yet not the environment. It is about adapting to what you are used to and when you move the goal posts you then have to treat/help your horse as appropriate.

I well suspect my boy has been in shoes since he was 4.. I know at least since he was 8 and he is now 19. For a long time I did wonder if it really was fair to take his shoes off after such a long time and it was a definite concern. He has totally proved me wrong on that though and we have changes and soundness that just weren't possible in shoes.

 

[Pale Rider]

If your looking for evidence, dissect some feet from shod horses like I have, and compare with barefoot ones.
Weak attachment of the hoof capsule, a sole less than a third of what it should be, and most importantly, a digital cushion that is spongy not hard and fiberous like it should be.

 

[Bikerchickone]

I must admit I find Paula's posts interesting too. All this insistence on evidence is great. My evidence is that without magnesium and pro balance + my lad struggles to trot across the stony tracks around our yard. With them he does so beautifully. Why would I need scientific evidence when a simple process of elimination shows me what I need to know?

I do love a good debate!

 

[TigerTail]

I took advice from a professional, not a random opinionated person on a forum.

But as is seen in every profession out there - there are good and bad professionals everywhere. Given that your horse wasn't gimping lame when you went to try/buy her something clearly went wrong! You put shoes on so yes you solved the visable problem that was making you wince watching her be footsore, but you didnt solve what caused the lameness in the first place.

This is what I really really struggle with with your opinions, they just arent consistent with what you do with your own horse to my mind.

Have we got any studies, out of interest, that specifically prove balancing an unbalanced diet, which is what we do with the addition of minerals, doesn't effect hoof health?

 

[Daytona]

Ester - I quite believe I could adapt over time to having no shoes in the jungle if I did a tiny bit at a time over a long period

But unfortunately when I had that mare , I had her to compete on, the only reason I personally choose to own a horse to SJ on so I could not spend months maybe years while she could adapt to no shoes I try try for a couple of months but nothing improved and I needed to ride my mare, hack her out , jump her etc.

But yes will a long period of time I'm sure eventually she would of been able to walk without being sore. But I have a horse for a purpose and one purpose one.

 

[SusieT]

'here are less hostile places than HHO to get help if you are genuinely looking for barefoot help.

PM me or Oberon if you want to know where to go and we can direct you - but I am one of the admins of the other "place" so fair warning that I won't tolerate posts of the tone of the OP's posts that seek to criticise barefoot horses, trained trimmers, their owners or other hoof care professionals in a non-constructive way. ' in other words it is a heavily moderated forum where you cannot disagree, people aren't welcome if not through and through barefooters so actually you are a closed shop-no better than the farriers you villify for looking after their own... At least on here you will get both sides of the arguement, not just advice that will not consider any way but the old faithful dietnetc. regardelss of abcesses, injuries, horses being sore etc. everything on those forums (be it a bee sting on the mouth!) is sorted by taking shoes off..