Barefoot cruelty

mine isnt in his stable 24/7 if thats what youre thinking... he goes out whenever i am home but theres been a few horses at collage break their legs due to kicking! its not ideal, i am well aware, but when there are less horses out, he does go out (booted to the nth degree!) i lost my old horse in june, im not about to loose another one if i can help it. He is happy, he is well fed, sheltered etc. He goes on the walker, in sand arena turnout with hay, ridden every day, hand grazed when i can. I just cant loose him to something as simple as a kick.
 
Zargon_91 said:
oberon- that is exactly what ive been wanting to hear! someone who accepts that there are different ways of doing things, and as long as it works for the horse, who cares! unfortunately i really feel that barefoot or shod is dangerous if the owner doesnt know why they are doing it. The amount of people that truely shouldnt own horses in this country is unreal, and frankly some people (barefoot AND shod) who are so tunnel minded they will swear that only one will work is also alarming- i think its dangerous to have such an unbalanced view.
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I quite agree.

The issue that we people who are interested in hooves find is that shoes work really well.....until they don't work.

Then the answer from *most* professionals is more shoes, then more special shoes, then different special shoes........then a bullet......

Most of us who have been in 'the business' for a while aren't anti-shoe at all. Nothing is black and white.

But when a shoe is part of the problem and causing the hoof to be unhealthy (along with 'the best diet the feed company recommends' :rolleyes:) then it's very frustrating when a break from shoes is never part of the equation.

Make no mistake - horse are STILL dying because of 'incurable' lameness. Some (not all) could be saved by just adjusting the diet and letting the horse grow a healthy hoof. But they never get a chance because no one suggests it as an option.

I have a huge problem with that :(
 
Sadly today I've seen a post on facebook from somebody who is a friend of a friend and has just had their horse pts for incurable lameness caused by navicular and ddft problems. I could've cried with her :(

So sad that so many equine lives are being lost due to closed minds from professionals involved in their care. I try to spread the word everywhere but some people look at you really strangely when you try to suggest something their vet hasn't. :(
 
What are youre views on natural balance shoes? Just out of interest? :)
Would you use them over normal shoes if for whatever reason (be it due to unsatisfactory lifestyle etc) youre horse had to wear shoes?

Just asking because my girlfriends horse has natural balance shoes, and he is loads better than in normal or even with quarter clips. He wont tolerate barefoot, and circumstances mean that a change in diet to transition him isnt a possibility right now.

Is this a middle ground possibly?
 
Natural Balance shoes were invented by a farrier (Gene Ovnicek) who went and studied wild hooves around the same time that 'barefoot guru' (and nut job) Jaime Jackson did.

Gene (like Jaime) came back from that time in Nevada forever changed on how he thought about hooves.

Jaime developed 'the wild trim' and the militant AANHCP.

Gene developed Natural Balance shoes.

They are intended to allow a better break over and some sole stimulation at the toe callous.

However they are still a fixed, nailed on structure. The hoof mechanism can't engage fully and the back of the hoof and the very important frogs can't develop as they're lifted off the ground and out of the action. Plus medio/lateral balance can still be off - even with the best farrier.

So, like any shoe. They work until they don't work.

You can't shoe or trim a shoe sick, weak, hoof healthy again.

The best way to handle shoeing is to shoe when you need to. And then allow a break off season.

The loss of this practice has met with an upsurge in navicluar and other lamenesses - despite the UK having some of the best trained farriers in the world.
 
what are you basing the foot mechanism cant work on? Sorry, im really not being an ar***hole, im an academic, its how i work :P
The problem ive always had up until now (Thankyou :) ) is people that advocate barefoot trimming when ive asked them have always just said, because its the way they are supposed to be... etc etc. I understand i might not be the most patient or tactful person in the world, but to me that answer has never been enough. Afterall, domestic horses are not the way they are supposed to be anyway. I personally shoe, when i need to, because it works for me but also because the benefits of shoeing are proven. (of course there are always exceptions) This doesnt mean im not open to trimming, but the name on the forefront of my mind when thinking about anyone trimming my horse is always Strasser...
 
Zargon_91 said:
. Afterall, domestic horses are not the way they are supposed to be anyway....
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To be fair, structurally they are. If they are managed with an eye to how the system is "meant" to work - forage based diet, steady movement, peer companions - they tend to do better and last longer. Of course our wishes for them often mean they are used in very unnatural ways - being ridden, most obviously - and so the trick is to balance their management to best address different needs. Activities like repetitive jumping ARE unnatural for horses from a mechanical perspective and result in the wear and tear we take for granted. (Of course, other things, like colic and injuries, which we can successfully treat can kill(ed) wild and feral horses!) The question is does this then necessitate unnatural management practices - cereal feeds, shoeing, clipping, stabling etc - and where is the balance?

As far as the wisdom of the sole and frog touching the ground being cause for debate, why would that be? Why would all hooved mammals be designed that way if it was "wrong"? We may shoe for the expectations we now put on horses but that's not the same conversation as arguing we've improved on the design over all. ;). Again, swings and roundabouts.

I do think there is always compromise and that any strictly held belief is suspect. I have had horses shod for competition purposes and will likely continue to do so if they need it. I do not generally like to shoe horses at the backing stage if I can avoid it and have had a surprising number reach the showing stage without needing to be shod. Courses for horses. :)

Btw, using Strasser as a touchpoint is quite emotive. I don't know too many "hoof care professionals" who hold such extreme views and think most of them would be offended to be lumped in with that approach. Again, moderation and understanding. .. .
 
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Zargon_91 said:
just out of interest... how many people with barefoot horses have them in work? and i dont mean hacking out a few times a week- i mean schooling for an hour a day, and jumping and competing? My horse used to be shoeless and tbh, he was eating pretty much a barefoot diet because i was feeding him the same thing (for ease over most things) as my sugar intolerant cushings horse. But when i got him fit and started working him properly his feet just couldnt keep up with the wear so he was shod. He also has windgalls on his hindlegs which have reduced significantly since he has been shod. Just wondering if maybe barefoot isnt such an option for serious competition horses? Also to add, my horse has never been shod before I had him- so it wasnt just that his feet werent accustomed to the stresses they were loaded with.
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I have three BF horse at the moment, I am new to BF the one of mine who is BF the longest has been without shoes just over a year now.
I have no doult that most dressage horses could be quite easily managed BF mine works six days a week does as much road work was I need to and just the same as the shod one I have, recently we have started taking him to the forest where he is fine on stoney tracks rough roots big stones etc.
Funnily with my three all I have seen is a reduction of windfalls and the like the horse above has completly reabsorbed one splint and the other has reduced by 50% since he went BF I speculate that they where caused by the stress caused by the farrier shoeing for the perfect foot shape ,the horse is slighly pidgeon toed .
One of the others is a 6 yo TB only out of shoes since April he has had some surgery over the summer so has not been in full work he is now ready for clinics and small shows he's jumping very well and feels very secure and safe when you are riding him.
The final one is my multitasking carriage horse his shoes have off seven weeks and he's the quickest so far to make the change I suspect he will be in the carriage BF by Christmas .
I have approached this as I would any serious new management / conditioning system studied put in a system ,changed and adjusted as I learnt going along I have a great trimmer on board whose wife does endurance without shoes and have learnt so much from him.
I also have the help of a slightly reluctant vet who is now much more onside.
The biggest issue as I see it is the time it takes to get them up to full work a year on and my first one is still changing and improving his foot shape however that may be something to do with the extreme caution I approached it with at first and the fact his slightly turning in legs where suffering with his shoes ( alarmingly he showed no symptons of this at except the splint)
 
I have my competition horse barefoot, although he's mostly still in training he does a LOT of work on his feet! he had the shoes taken off the week after i bought him as the shoes had caused his heels to close together and his balance was poor. The horse is work 6 days a week, which consists of schooling for an hour (mostly trot and canterwork) on sand, jumping sessions which can go up to 1hr 1/2, lunging with groundwork and freejumping 35 mins, hacking with a lot of rough terrain and roadwork for up to 5 hours! (but usually around 2-3), xc schooling 2hours at a local course with hills and gravel/sand type landings, when we go to a particular show is takes an hour there and back with all sorts of ground. This is not the weekly routine btw, just examples of what he does :) He gets days off or gentle walks after particularly hard working days!

So yes, lots of work and never been better with his shoes off :) He is kept on low sugar diet, is fed happy hoof, balancer, MSM supplement, and Alfa A molasses free. He also lives out.

My other pony is barefoot- she tore a tendon in her shoes, and since theyve been off she has been 100% sound- she does a lot of the work my other horse does- but has more days off.

I do look after 3 shod horses and ride them, and would never dream of taking their shoes off as the shoes basically hold their feet together! Having said that, since I have been feeding one of them and managing him similar to my own, his feet have improved beyond recognition and I feel within a few more months he could cope with at least his back shoes off. When hacking I do find that my barefoot horses do feel the odd sharp stone, but I feel it weighs up quite insignificantly against the benefits of having their shoes off.
 
Hoof_Prints said:
So yes, lots of work and never been better with his shoes off :) He is kept on low sugar diet, is fed happy hoof, balancer, MSM supplement, and Alfa A molasses free. He also lives out.
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No problem if its working for you but if you get any footiness issues, take out the happy hoof - it contains molglo - which is a mix of soya and molasses :) Also depending on which balancer you are using as these often contain molasses, especially if pelleted!

Both of mine are barefoot, both hack on all terrains no problem. I take issue with the 'just hacking out a few times a week' the happy hackers amongst us take out horses on far more varied terrain than a sand school and grass x country :p I know several people who hunt and 3 day event bf so its not a problem for anyone.
 
Reading Zargon_91's post, I find it strange and disappointing that this horse didn't transition well, despite what appears a reasonable amount of exercise, and the 'pretty much' barefoot diet.
Obviously a massive hole somewhere in the regime, interesting though.
 
I think it depends on the horse, their situation and what is required of them.
I also wouldn't say it's just unshod horses that get abcesses.
I do agree to some extent that some people will choose to believe that unshod is always better, without taking into consideration that each horse is different etc. But you could also say the same about people who always say that a shod horse is better. I suppose it does depend on your experience.
 
Zargon_91 said:
what are you basing the foot mechanism cant work on? Sorry, im really not being an ar***hole, im an academic, its how i work :P
The problem ive always had up until now (Thankyou :) ) is people that advocate barefoot trimming when ive asked them have always just said, because its the way they are supposed to be... etc etc. I understand i might not be the most patient or tactful person in the world, but to me that answer has never been enough. Afterall, domestic horses are not the way they are supposed to be anyway. I personally shoe, when i need to, because it works for me but also because the benefits of shoeing are proven. (of course there are always exceptions) This doesnt mean im not open to trimming, but the name on the forefront of my mind when thinking about anyone trimming my horse is always Strasser...
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You are right not to accept half hearted explanations. And we learnt a lot from Strasser (and Jaime Jackson in the early days....as they both teamed up initially) about how NOT to do things and that trimming was a very small part of the whole process.
Strasser did publish some interesting work on natural boarding and practices. It's just sad that her trimming methods were excessive and her writing style was hysterical.

So the hoof mechanism -

The horse loads the leg and the coffin bone presses down onto the hoof capsule.

hoofmechanism.jpg


The force pushes the heels apart and the hoof expands slightly.

The (pink) digital cushions (when well developed and muscular rather than flabby) act like ballistic jelly and absorbs some of the concussion.

The frog acts as a hinge/elastic band when loaded and unloaded.

The bars lock the wall into shape and prevents the wall from over expanding when loaded.

fig1.jpg


At peak load onto the frog and sole, the blood supply is forced shut and trapped blood pools in the hoof capsule which (along with the digital cushions) acts as a concussive dampener and heat dissipation. Pressure from the trapped blood builds.

The horse starts to unload the hoof - the pressure from the trapped blood at the sole, the action of the frog (which pings like an elastic band) and the bars, means the hoof contracts and blood shoots back up the leg.

http://www.extension.org/pages/10378/blood-pumping-mechanism-of-the-hoof

A bare hoof shares the load between the heel, frog, sole and wall and each plays a part in the mechanism.

A shod hoof will still behave as above, but the nature of loading solely on the wall, the fixed nature of the metal and the tendency for the digital cushions, frogs and heel to be flabby and weak.....means the hoof is hampered from expanding, engaging all the suspension apparatus, and also from trapping the blood completely (which is why shod hooves have less circulation).

You can often see the attempts by the hoof to expand via wear patterns in the heel area of used shoes.

heelmarksshoe.jpg


Remedial shoes such as heart bars, egg bars and Imprints are an attempt to engage more of the hoof than traditional shoes and there have been several inventions over the years
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=559648&highlight=shoes

But the issue is that you can't bully the hoof into being strong and well formed, so remedial shoes tend to allow more comfort for a while - but they aren't always an answer to a sick hoof.
 
Mine is BF competition horse. He hunts, events, dressages and SJs. He is worked up to 6 days a week (all going to plan) for 1hr ish per day, on grass and sealed roads, some gravel and the beach.

He is also trimmed by a strasser trained professional who I highly recommend (NZ based however).

He was trimmed by someone who had a less training when I first went to BF and I had ongoing seedy toe isses, changed trimmer to someone who knew what they were doing mechanism wise and seedy toe/cracks etc all gone now.
 
Oberon said:
The force pushes the heels apart and the hoof expands slightly.
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Does this mean that I'm causing my horse problems by putting her in Easyboot Gloves? Unfortunately I cannot get her completely sound over stones in the summer without keeping her off grass 24/7 which means being stabled. She goes fantastically in these boots but now you've made me wonder if I'm harming her by wearing boots for sometimes 3-4 hours at a time?
 
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