barefoot I am getting seriously worried PART 2

[paddy555]

,
admin have allowed my original thread to remain so there is a lot of info there but it is time to move on. The warning is there for anyone considering a trimmer or new to barefoot and that is do your research, that applies to any school of trimming, don't just accept comments on the internet as being correct but get references and go and look at horses to make sure you are going to be happy with your trimmer and their method.

The question of laminitis is a big one and an area where there is disagreement between some schools of trimming. This post below is a very timely offering on another group and discusses the causes of laminitis and track systems. There is permission to share it and, to my mind, it does come with provisos that firstly is your horse/pony going to thrive on a track system, secondly also for some of these very sad cases just because we can doesn't mean we should.

Barefoot rehab for laminitic/rotated feet was established way back in the early 2000's. It is nothing new, just now that track liveries have evolved with better facilities. Many people however have struggled along with their trimmer with their limited facilities and still been successful. Obviously not all cases are successful and if considering it for your horse then expect your trimmer to have had some failures, Some feet are not recoverable and there are sadly failures.

this is from the FB group equine scientia. An interesting group well worth a look especially the last few posts. .

QUOTE
I propose that renaming “laminitis” as LAMELLAR ATTACHMENT FAILURE (LAF).
This might actually help those who are currently under a spell of

to understand the

MULTIPLE

causes, the TWO major PATHOPHYSIOLOGICAL effects and why a TRACK SYSTEM is nearly always going to “REHAB”

.
LaminITIS is a misleading term since it implies there is always inflammation (ITIS Greek for inflammation) which is not true (see my image).
There is however ALWAYS LAF (to varying degrees of severity).
The key to REHAB is removing the CAUSE and appropriately trimming the feet to correct the EFFECTS of LAF.
LAF will present over time as a laminar wedge (damaged hoof growing out), reduced hoof wall growth and increased heal growth.
Mechanical overload (The “teachings” of some groups) is only ONE cause of LAF. And actually horses that have LAF from ANOTHER cause can end up in this category (Mechanical overload) if appropriate CORRECTIVE TRIMMING has not occurred.
However ALL causes of LAF can be “rehabbed” using a TRACK system. So this is why the OTHER CAUSES of LAMELLAR ATTACHMENT FAILURE can be presented as non existent (by some groups) and innocent people can be BRAINWASHED into believing these causes are “OLD SCIENCE”. Because regardless of the cause of LAF a track system combined with CORRECTIVE trimming will USUALLY result in “rehab”.
A CORRECTIVE trim, involves 1) (re)alignment of P3, 2) maintenance of normal amounts of heel, 3) preservation and development of sole and 4) reduction of lamellar wedge to prevent unnecessary overload stress to P3 and transmitted up to the coronary band. However failure to perform (4) in conjunction with 1, 2 and 3 will lead to prolonged recovery time, increased pain and abscesses even ON a TRACK system.
Help me share ALL causes of LAMELLAR ATTACHMENT FAILURE.





some schools of trimming are very vocal that laminitis/rotation is caused solely by poor trimming. It is easy to blame either the farrier or the barefoot trimmer but that is not always the case. We need to look back to the causes which are on the chart above to see what has been going on.

This is just the first post on a new thread which hopefully people can comment on. Admin would like our discussions to be general ones without specifically calling out individuals.

my understanding from admin is that they are happy for discussions on this topic to be ongoing but on a more general and non name calling basis

this post has been cleared by admin before posting. Please can we stick to the bold part above to avoid the thread being closed.

 

[dreamcometrue]

Far too shouty for me to take seriously

 

[Exasperated]

,
admin have allowed my original thread to remain so there is a lot of info there but it is time to move on. The warning is there for anyone considering a trimmer or new to barefoot and that is do your research, that applies to any school of trimming, don't just accept comments on the internet as being correct but get references and go and look at horses to make sure you are going to be happy with your trimmer and their method.

The question of laminitis is a big one and an area where there is disagreement between some schools of trimming. This post below is a very timely offering on another group and discusses the causes of laminitis and track systems. There is permission to share it and, to my mind, it does come with provisos that firstly is your horse/pony going to thrive on a track system, secondly also for some of these very sad cases just because we can doesn't mean we should.

Barefoot rehab for laminitic/rotated feet was established way back in the early 2000's. It is nothing new, just now that track liveries have evolved with better facilities. Many people however have struggled along with their trimmer with their limited facilities and still been successful. Obviously not all cases are successful and if considering it for your horse then expect your trimmer to have had some failures, Some feet are not recoverable and there are sadly failures.

this is from the FB group equine scientia. An interesting group well worth a look especially the last few posts. .

QUOTE
I propose that renaming “laminitis” as LAMELLAR ATTACHMENT FAILURE (LAF).
This might actually help those who are currently under a spell of

to understand the

MULTIPLE

causes, the TWO major PATHOPHYSIOLOGICAL effects and why a TRACK SYSTEM is nearly always going to “REHAB”

.
LaminITIS is a misleading term since it implies there is always inflammation (ITIS Greek for inflammation) which is not true (see my image).
There is however ALWAYS LAF (to varying degrees of severity).
The key to REHAB is removing the CAUSE and appropriately trimming the feet to correct the EFFECTS of LAF.
LAF will present over time as a laminar wedge (damaged hoof growing out), reduced hoof wall growth and increased heal growth.
Mechanical overload (The “teachings” of some groups) is only ONE cause of LAF. And actually horses that have LAF from ANOTHER cause can end up in this category (Mechanical overload) if appropriate CORRECTIVE TRIMMING has not occurred.
However ALL causes of LAF can be “rehabbed” using a TRACK system. So this is why the OTHER CAUSES of LAMELLAR ATTACHMENT FAILURE can be presented as non existent (by some groups) and innocent people can be BRAINWASHED into believing these causes are “OLD SCIENCE”. Because regardless of the cause of LAF a track system combined with CORRECTIVE trimming will USUALLY result in “rehab”.
A CORRECTIVE trim, involves 1) (re)alignment of P3, 2) maintenance of normal amounts of heel, 3) preservation and development of sole and 4) reduction of lamellar wedge to prevent unnecessary overload stress to P3 and transmitted up to the coronary band. However failure to perform (4) in conjunction with 1, 2 and 3 will lead to prolonged recovery time, increased pain and abscesses even ON a TRACK system.
Help me share ALL causes of LAMELLAR ATTACHMENT FAILURE.

View attachment 165576



some schools of trimming are very vocal that laminitis/rotation is caused solely by poor trimming. It is easy to blame either the farrier or the barefoot trimmer but that is not always the case. We need to look back to the causes which are on the chart above to see what has been going on.

This is just the first post on a new thread which hopefully people can comment on. Admin would like our discussions to be general ones without specifically calling out individuals.

my understanding from admin is that they are happy for discussions on this topic to be ongoing but on a more general and non name calling basis

this post has been cleared by admin before posting. Please can we stick to the bold part above to avoid the thread being closed.

Absolutely, focus on the topic not the people, and if conducted largely via reference to Facebook posts - the Admin dept won’t have anything to worry about anyway.

 

[dorsetladette]

The problem I have with all of these FB groups recently is that it feels like they are all having a dig at each other. It no longer feels like they are spreading knowledge for the good of the horses, but more to score points against another party.

 

[paddy555]

The problem I have with all of these FB groups recently is that it feels like they are all having a dig at each other. It no longer feels like they are spreading knowledge for the good of the horses, but more to score points against another party.

there are a lot of not very pleasant posts about one group of trimmers. A lot of that is frustration as that group will not discuss or debate their methods on their own groups so discussion has to be somewhere. However most of the rest are just people disagreeing which to my mind is not bad. There are different viewpoints and sometimes, as people argue, a point will come out and it will, for me, be a lightbulb moment.

I have just been reading a few pages at the end of the "constantly locked threads" which is now itself locked I think FB is a pretty pleasant place to be compared to that/those threads.

 

[Mrs. Glittery Jingle Balls]

I think FB is a pretty pleasant place to be compared to that/those threads.

Crikey, my FB content isn't the same one you would seem to be using?

 

[Fjord]

I am put off by reports that are worded aggressively, they just seem unprofessional to me.

 

[paddy555]

Crikey, my FB content isn't the same one you would seem to be using?

to me or at least what I chose to watch on FB is just people making their points sometimes quite strongly.

I found some of the comments on the constantly locked threads just nasty.

 

[Mrs. Glittery Jingle Balls]

Ok,

 

[dorsetladette]

I have just been reading a few pages at the end of the "constantly locked threads" which is now itself locked I think FB is a pretty pleasant place to be compared to that/those threads.

I've just read a few comments on the last couple of pages of that thread as I didn't know it existed. Some subjects do bring out the worst in normally pleasant posters.

I guess in all aspects of life you will get people who are passionate about a subject. But my overriding feeling with the barefoot world is still that people seem to be passionate about proving someone else wrong and throwing mud rather than knowing all the facts and researching. I've stepped away from several groups as it just doesn't seem productive to me. Most people within those arguments seem to have a very blinkered approach to the subject they argue about.

I was always taught that you may know alot, but there is a whole world of 'stuff' you don't know you don't know.

@paddy555 I usually agree with you and find your posts very interesting and feel they come from a knowledgeable background. I do have alot of respect for you and the information you share. I guess we can't all agree all the time.

 

[nutjob]

I found some of the comments on the constantly locked threads just nasty.

Yes, but quite surprised at who has been suspended tbh. Unless there have been posts deleted.

 

[paddy555]

Yes, but quite surprised at who has been suspended tbh. Unless there have been posts deleted.

I have no idea who except I'm Dun has been suspended, if fact I have very little idea of what it is all about anyway. Beyond me.

 

[paddy555]

I was always taught that you may know alot, but there is a whole world of 'stuff' you don't know you don't know.

that is why I put up with reading rubbish on FB (and anywhere else) because somewhere in there is something that I didn't know that I didn't know but I do in fact need to know.

 

[nutjob]

I have no idea who except I'm Dun has been suspended, if fact I have very little idea of what it is all about anyway. Beyond me.

It's YCBM, I was just surprised as there seemed to be a lot of people wading into one person and those members are all still here.

 

[Mrs. Glittery Jingle Balls]

I believe it was Ambers Echo who has also been banned, I am not aware YCBM has been, she was posting yesterday and I certainly didn't see anything she was posting would have caused her to be sanctioned by Admin.

 

[nutjob]

Ambers Echo is back but YCBM cannot be found in the member list atm. I also didn't see a problem post.

 

[Mrs. Glittery Jingle Balls]

Perhaps she has chosen to step away for awhile, I know she does from time to time. If it is, hopefully she will be back soon. It is odd though some of the recent banning and slapped wrists do seem to come out of nowhere. I think maybe Admin is sick of the lot of us and is just randomly sticking a pin in a list of all forum member's names and sending us to the naughty step to get us out from under the feet for awhile. I can't say I blame them frankly.

 

[Mrs. Glittery Jingle Balls]

Apologies paddy555 for hijacking your thread, I shall step back now and just read.

 

[splashgirl45]

I’ve asked questions on one of the Facebook threads and they just keep telling me that laminitis is caused by bad trimming, and when I ask a slightly different question about grass and track systems I still seem to get the same answer. At least I got replies , I was very careful to word my questions as if I knew nothing, not that I’m an expert but I’ve had horses for over 50 years and never had a laminitis case even though sometimes the shoeing may not have been the best and one horse was very overweight for a while, I’ve also kept them out 24/7 and half and half depending on where I’ve kept them ..

 

[paddy555]

Apologies paddy555 for hijacking your thread, I shall step back now and just read.

no problem, I like to keep up to date, I am usually the last one to work it out.

 

[paddy555]

I’ve asked questions on one of the Facebook threads and they just keep telling me that laminitis is caused by bad trimming, and when I ask a slightly different question about grass and track systems I still seem to get the same answer. At least I got replies , I was very careful to word my questions as if I knew nothing, not that I’m an expert but I’ve had horses for over 50 years and never had a laminitis case even though sometimes the shoeing may not have been the best and one horse was very overweight for a while, I’ve also kept them out 24/7 and half and half depending on where I’ve kept them ..

everyone gets the same reply. If you ask nicely you get told bad trimming and if you persist you get abuse and banned.

The quote on the first post on this thread may sound aggressive and non professional but it is written against this background. Any attempt at discussion and ranks are closed. For many it doesn't matter but I'm sure newbies or just inexperienced people must come along and be taken in by it. There seems to be no stopping them. We all know this is danger season for lami and also for lami from PPID when the levels rise.

if you are someone with little background knowledge and your animal gets lami you need to understand the causes very quickly and you need to question PPID. PPID isn't caused by bad trimming.

 

[brighteyes]

I’ve asked questions on one of the Facebook threads and they just keep telling me that laminitis is caused by bad trimming, and when I ask a slightly different question about grass and track systems I still seem to get the same answer. At least I got replies , I was very careful to word my questions as if I knew nothing, not that I’m an expert but I’ve had horses for over 50 years and never had a laminitis case even though sometimes the shoeing may not have been the best and one horse was very overweight for a while, I’ve also kept them out 24/7 and half and half depending on where I’ve kept them ..

I have done exactly the same. Feigned stupidity. Was spoken to like I am four. It’s such a very, vitally important and serious subject. I have had the misfortune to inherit two EMS/Cushingoids which ended as you’d expect given the history and have got two Welsh ponies to 25 and 30 with no laminitis or crests so feel competent to talk about feeding and management - which does NOT include grass or movement in the acute phase, should you be unlucky enough to be there.

 

[brighteyes]

,
admin have allowed my original thread to remain so there is a lot of info there but it is time to move on. The warning is there for anyone considering a trimmer or new to barefoot and that is do your research, that applies to any school of trimming, don't just accept comments on the internet as being correct but get references and go and look at horses to make sure you are going to be happy with your trimmer and their method.

The question of laminitis is a big one and an area where there is disagreement between some schools of trimming. This post below is a very timely offering on another group and discusses the causes of laminitis and track systems. There is permission to share it and, to my mind, it does come with provisos that firstly is your horse/pony going to thrive on a track system, secondly also for some of these very sad cases just because we can doesn't mean we should.

Barefoot rehab for laminitic/rotated feet was established way back in the early 2000's. It is nothing new, just now that track liveries have evolved with better facilities. Many people however have struggled along with their trimmer with their limited facilities and still been successful. Obviously not all cases are successful and if considering it for your horse then expect your trimmer to have had some failures, Some feet are not recoverable and there are sadly failures.

this is from the FB group equine scientia. An interesting group well worth a look especially the last few posts. .

QUOTE
I propose that renaming “laminitis” as LAMELLAR ATTACHMENT FAILURE (LAF).
This might actually help those who are currently under a spell of

to understand the

MULTIPLE

causes, the TWO major PATHOPHYSIOLOGICAL effects and why a TRACK SYSTEM is nearly always going to “REHAB”

.
LaminITIS is a misleading term since it implies there is always inflammation (ITIS Greek for inflammation) which is not true (see my image).
There is however ALWAYS LAF (to varying degrees of severity).
The key to REHAB is removing the CAUSE and appropriately trimming the feet to correct the EFFECTS of LAF.
LAF will present over time as a laminar wedge (damaged hoof growing out), reduced hoof wall growth and increased heal growth.
Mechanical overload (The “teachings” of some groups) is only ONE cause of LAF. And actually horses that have LAF from ANOTHER cause can end up in this category (Mechanical overload) if appropriate CORRECTIVE TRIMMING has not occurred.
However ALL causes of LAF can be “rehabbed” using a TRACK system. So this is why the OTHER CAUSES of LAMELLAR ATTACHMENT FAILURE can be presented as non existent (by some groups) and innocent people can be BRAINWASHED into believing these causes are “OLD SCIENCE”. Because regardless of the cause of LAF a track system combined with CORRECTIVE trimming will USUALLY result in “rehab”.
A CORRECTIVE trim, involves 1) (re)alignment of P3, 2) maintenance of normal amounts of heel, 3) preservation and development of sole and 4) reduction of lamellar wedge to prevent unnecessary overload stress to P3 and transmitted up to the coronary band. However failure to perform (4) in conjunction with 1, 2 and 3 will lead to prolonged recovery time, increased pain and abscesses even ON a TRACK system.
Help me share ALL causes of LAMELLAR ATTACHMENT FAILURE.

View attachment 165576



some schools of trimming are very vocal that laminitis/rotation is caused solely by poor trimming. It is easy to blame either the farrier or the barefoot trimmer but that is not always the case. We need to look back to the causes which are on the chart above to see what has been going on.

This is just the first post on a new thread which hopefully people can comment on. Admin would like our discussions to be general ones without specifically calling out individuals.

my understanding from admin is that they are happy for discussions on this topic to be ongoing but on a more general and non name calling basis

this post has been cleared by admin before posting. Please can we stick to the bold part above to avoid the thread being closed.

Well you have me there, in several of the scenarios and outcomes. I’ll have to go and think about why!

I watched a TheHorse.Com webinar years ago which showed the MMPs causing the disintegration of the lamellae by dissolving the basement membrane and the decline in integrity of the hoof structure. P3 rotates due to the pull of the DDFT

I’m not sure which of the causes can fully resolve. Your chart is very informative and encouraging.

I did believe endocrine disruption was the culprit in the majority of cases and sepsis second.

I don’t mind being re educated with science.

 

[Boulty]

I find the trajectory of particular branches of trimming frustrating as to start with there was some good advice amongst the more problematic stuff.

When it was being said that rotation is caused by bad trimming I thought they had half a point in terms of yes the trim if done well or badly enough can have an influence on that (hence trimming to X-rays being best practice in these cases) although still took issue with the insertion of the word “only” in front of caused…

I also happen to agree in principle with the idea of not trimming past the white line (well apart from if doing keratoma surgery or other funky stuff), although still not convinced of the necessity of leaving several cm of wall in front of the white line at the toe. (Won’t say that it can’t work because clearly it CAN but have seen equally good results claimed with taking said wall back to white line, without getting silly & making it look like it’s literally had a hacksaw taken to it)

Have never quite got the hard sole plane obsession but again agree that if a horse isn’t able to exfoliate their frog & sole naturally (eg if in boots 24/7) then yes they’re going to need some help to avoid things getting ridiculous.

When there used to be focus on the importance of changing the diet & environment (ie taking off grass, giving suitable low sugar hay, supportive surfaces, ideally track system), again I was mostly in agreement (apart from their insistence that hay isn’t vit E deficient & that balancers are never needed with a hay only diet)

I completely get the frustration with some of the “interesting” farriery that they as a group of people seem to come across (& most definitely do not agree with that either) but disagree with throwing all farriers everywhere in the bin because of the actions of some amongst them (& there really did ought to be a better disciplinary process for properly calling out those “some”)

The latest claims re laminitis being purely related to trim (with no good quality evidence) & not to any of the other causes that have a very good evidence base spanning years behind them is lunacy. IMO that is personal preference science. (Applied in a similar way to how a certain kind of politician likes to manipulate “facts” to suit themselves ie with a good chunk of the context missing)

I mean jumping from one controversial claim to the next (with each one upping the level of controversy) certainly helps with the ol’ engagement figures I guess?

Will caveat this whole post by saying I’m not in any private groups related to particular branches of trimming (well if you want total transparency I’m on one relating to a particular type of rehab most definitely not associated with this kind of thing) so all I’m commenting on is stuff that’s fully out in public.

 

[Roasted Chestnuts]

I honestly just don’t get why these cults can’t just realise that not everyone is going to agree with what they put out there to the public. I called the worst one the teacher and electrician method

Having rehabbed a Laminitic that was caused by a combination of unbalanced foot and concussion on frosty ground I can say that trim and balance regardless of who does your horses feet can give them laminitis. I have farans X-rays and you can see clear as day how unbalanced they are. So yes the foot care provider can contribute to a Lami episode.

I’ve read through quite a few of these barefoot methods. Frankly many are just theories being pushed as fact with no actual science behind them imo.

It is concerning however how much these pages can have influence imo

 

[Follysmum]

I get that everyone has an opinion on this subject and everyone has their right to put it out there, BUT, it’s the righteous ranting and the fact they are right and everyone else is wrong that gets me. Some are generally asking questions and are shot down.

Now they feel victimised and bullied which no one should feel btw

Social media at its best

 

[SEL]

The worst laminitis case I've seen was a Welsh Sec A that fence hopped onto a rich rye grass field. She got away with it a few times then one day was captured and looking footy. By the next morning she was beyond footy and despite box rest, soaked hay etc she was crippled 3 days later.

They had to wait, fill her with bute & sedate to x ray she was so sore. It was purely because she had good soles and a good trim that the pedal bone hadn't penetrated. I would still have PTS if she'd been mine because bute wasn't touching it, but I also know years later she's a happy lead rein pony.

The trim was good - the pony's indifference to electric fencing less so.

 

[splashgirl45]

The examples of feet before and after are pretty extreme and the very high heels could cause lameness definitely but whether they cause laminitis sounds very far fetched to me. My mare with cushings was put on medication and kept absolutely normally with no sign of any lameness, but at the age of 25 we couldn’t control her cushings with 4 prascend daily and she became footsore and I’m pretty sure she would have come down with laminitis had I kept her alive, her feet were the same as they had been for 15 years as I had the same farrier , the only thing that changed was the cushings effect

 

[millitiger]

I don't understand showing the cadaver leg 'before and after' comparisons.

As a cadaver leg you can trim it to change the angles as much as you like but because the leg isn't attached to the horse, we can't see if the horse would have walked off better or crippled as a result of the trim.

 

[paddy555]

I don't understand showing the cadaver leg 'before and after' comparisons.

As a cadaver leg you can trim it to change the angles as much as you like but because the leg isn't attached to the horse, we can't see if the horse would have walked off better or crippled as a result of the trim.

absolutely, you can make it look as perfect and pretty as you want. Just a shame normally legs are attached to live horses.