barefoot I am getting seriously worried PART 2

I've been watching the various Facebook factions and threads here with interest as both my ponies are barefoot. The first I rehabbed 10 years ago as her diet prior to coming to us was totally unsuitable and her hooves had more holes than Swiss cheese!

Our very trusted trimmer was out last week and we discussed the whole matter and came up with the same conclusion - diet/grass/management is usually the initial root cause of laminitis but successful recovery is then hampered by poor farriery or trimming, often under vet guidance, prolonging and worsening cases until owners last hope is the more militant rehab methods.
 
lrw0250 said:
I've been watching the various Facebook factions and threads here with interest as both my ponies are barefoot. The first I rehabbed 10 years ago as her diet prior to coming to us was totally unsuitable and her hooves had more holes than Swiss cheese!

Our very trusted trimmer was out last week and we discussed the whole matter and came up with the same conclusion - diet/grass/management is usually the initial root cause of laminitis but successful recovery is then hampered by poor farriery or trimming, often under vet guidance, prolonging and worsening cases until owners last hope is the more militant rehab methods.
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Yes, but you also need to recognise there are plenty of other causes of laminitis, too, albeit excess grass / insufficient activity is typical of most leisure owners’ experience.
Furthermore, recovery is never cut and dried, guaranteed - whether with the very best or very worst of management: some will survive in spite, others deteriorate and perish notwithstanding.
Someone on the earlier, closed thread made very pertinent observations about the ‘typical’ horse owner who is likely to follow ‘militant rehab methods’ - it’s also possible to view them as symptomatic of post modern consciousness, the distrust of classical science, of traditional authority, fast-paced social flux and perpetual uncertainty - bottom line is, some seriously-suffering horses.
 
SEL said:
The worst laminitis case I've seen was a Welsh Sec A that fence hopped onto a rich rye grass field. She got away with it a few times then one day was captured and looking footy. By the next morning she was beyond footy and despite box rest, soaked hay etc she was crippled 3 days later.

They had to wait, fill her with bute & sedate to x ray she was so sore. It was purely because she had good soles and a good trim that the pedal bone hadn't penetrated. I would still have PTS if she'd been mine because bute wasn't touching it, but I also know years later she's a happy lead rein pony.

The trim was good - the pony's indifference to electric fencing less so.
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My parents took in a lot of Welsh A's with laminitis when we were breeding. They seemed to have a knack for 'fixing' them. They had a good farrier and vet to support them. Vets and farrier were generally on site every week or so as we had a livery/hunt/show production/stud yard so always something going on. Some were absolutely shocking when they arrived and some were to far gone to be helped so were quietly PTS. The farrier would check the 'lami block' every time he visited and usually trim 1 or 2 a little here and there each time. Dad had a tie rail in the stream and the ponies would stand with a haynet (soaked hay) for an hour or so in the cold flowing water to help take the heat out of there feet. We lifted their beds in a morning when we mucked out and they would stand on concrete floors again to help draw the heat from there feet. They're diet was mostly soaked hay and if hungry they could pick at their straw beds. Bute was given in the smallest handful of chaff if needed.

My first ponies as a child (seperate from the breeding stock) was a pair of shetland ponies that a race horse owner had grazing with his retired racehorses (they all came home to retire, which was a lovely idyllic set up). Unfortunately the sheltands didn't realise they didn't need the same feed volume as the TBs and soon got fat, coupled with the owners wife feeding sugar lumps and the sheltands soon ended up with lami. They spent some time at liverpool uni then returned home with strict instructions that they needed to be exercised so I was roped in to ride them several times a week. They were gifted to me as we won at pretty impressive levels with one of them.

I'm not saying that what they did was gold standard, but it worked. I'm sure research has moved on since the 90's but they worked with what they knew then and each individual case was different and grew their knowledge base. Most ponies went on to be useful in one way or another.
 
Boulty said:
I find the trajectory of particular branches of trimming frustrating as to start with there was some good advice amongst the more problematic stuff.

When it was being said that rotation is caused by bad trimming I thought they had half a point in terms of yes the trim if done well or badly enough can have an influence on that (hence trimming to X-rays being best practice in these cases) although still took issue with the insertion of the word “only” in front of caused…

I also happen to agree in principle with the idea of not trimming past the white line (well apart from if doing keratoma surgery or other funky stuff), although still not convinced of the necessity of leaving several cm of wall in front of the white line at the toe. (Won’t say that it can’t work because clearly it CAN but have seen equally good results claimed with taking said wall back to white line, without getting silly & making it look like it’s literally had a hacksaw taken to it)

Have never quite got the hard sole plane obsession but again agree that if a horse isn’t able to exfoliate their frog & sole naturally (eg if in boots 24/7) then yes they’re going to need some help to avoid things getting ridiculous.

When there used to be focus on the importance of changing the diet & environment (ie taking off grass, giving suitable low sugar hay, supportive surfaces, ideally track system), again I was mostly in agreement (apart from their insistence that hay isn’t vit E deficient & that balancers are never needed with a hay only diet)

I completely get the frustration with some of the “interesting” farriery that they as a group of people seem to come across (& most definitely do not agree with that either) but disagree with throwing all farriers everywhere in the bin because of the actions of some amongst them (& there really did ought to be a better disciplinary process for properly calling out those “some”)

The latest claims re laminitis being purely related to trim (with no good quality evidence) & not to any of the other causes that have a very good evidence base spanning years behind them is lunacy. IMO that is personal preference science. (Applied in a similar way to how a certain kind of politician likes to manipulate “facts” to suit themselves ie with a good chunk of the context missing)

I mean jumping from one controversial claim to the next (with each one upping the level of controversy) certainly helps with the ol’ engagement figures I guess?

Will caveat this whole post by saying I’m not in any private groups related to particular branches of trimming (well if you want total transparency I’m on one relating to a particular type of rehab most definitely not associated with this kind of thing) so all I’m commenting on is stuff that’s fully out in public.
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Well that's a bit "common sensey!"
Seriously, a balanced and generous post.
I struggle to be as generous when some of the points they make are demonstrably wrong to the point of being a welfare concern. No balancer needed on a hay only diet for instance. Dismissing conditions like EMS as a cause of lami/rotation. Lots of us here have experience of the effects of various deficiencies in our horses diets and have seen the effect of rectifying them as well as the health problems caused when things are lacking. Lots of us are firefighting metabolic conditions, provable, measurable conditions, and see the effect of downturns in footiness/LGL/Full blown lami. We have the evidence of our own eyes as well as the benefit of reading and listening to medical professionals and researchers and other hoofcare providers. So it's hard to watch people who DONT have these benefits being sucked in and duped by what seems to me to almost be a personality cult these days.
 
this has just come up on Mark Johnson's FB page. I'm not posting it about any particular personal preference method but I was interested in raising the foot to trim and also about using aubiose. I wouldn't have thought about aubiose. . Anyway thought some on here may be interested. :D



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paddy555 said:
this has just come up on Mark Johnson's FB page. I'm not posting it about any particular personal preference method but I was interested in raising the foot to trim and also about using aubiose. I wouldn't have thought about aubiose. . Anyway thought some on here may be interested. :D



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Click to expand...
Thanks.
Makes it very easy for people to understand how long toes would exacerbate the issue!
Personally don’t get on with aubiose, can’t stand the thought of the horse standing on bedding which has soaked up all the urine 😖, but as a deep conformable bed for emergency, makes sense. Deal with the thrush afterwards!
 
Exasperated said:
Thanks.
Makes it very easy for people to understand how long toes would exacerbate the issue!
Personally don’t get on with aubiose, can’t stand the thought of the horse standing on bedding which has soaked up all the urine 😖, but as a deep conformable bed for emergency, makes sense. Deal with the thrush afterwards!
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I have never used Aubiose however a farrier years ago told me he hated it because it compacted terribly in shod feet and put pressure on the sole so what he hated MJ suggests for exactly the same reason ie to give support. (these are barefoot lami horses)

It may well cause thrush however if you rehab laminitics by booting/padding then continual booting also causes thrush.
 
rabatsa said:
How is auboise soaking up urine any different from shavings soaking up urine?
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Not a shavings fan, too dusty, doesn’t decompose, prefer deep, shredded newspaper on matting for laminitis, adding extra bale every two days, digging out when too high rise.
Otherwise, muck out properly every day, leave salvaged litter thrown up to air the stable out, before bedding down with clean at night. I find it quicker, less tiring and far less smelly to do this. Oh, and have tried most other bedding types and methods over the years, including aubiose.
Sorry, old school, Pony Club and Hunt background - don’t like horses standing on any compacted dirty litter - although I know it has become very popular to just remove droppings daily and muck out once in a while, and if that suits them and their horses - whatever.
Bandages and boots during lami - thankfully not had to deal with this for some time, but have used Mycil or even talcum powder under the supports / bandaging - which I do check and replace probably a lot more often than some - and avoided thrush.
Might not be much good at other stuff, but one thing I really can do well - and fast - is bandage a hoof! Uses a lot of Vetwrap, though.
 
I am also old school, well I could even go so far as to say old university of horse keeping in my case. I won't bore you with my credentials. :rolleyes: I can remember bedding them down on peat, it would be skipped out daily and more dry added as needed, Probably entirely removed and replaced every 3 months'ish as far as I can remember. Very soft, dry and forgiving bedding, I can't remember a single case of thrush back then, their stables didn't smell either. But then we were probably more scrupulous about skipping out and also picking feet out before coming in and before going out again too.🤷‍♀️

I seem to recall it was spread on the land after use and a very ecofriendly circle of use I suppose. I wonder to any people still use it for bedding their horses, I know it is still used over here in farming, not sure about equines though. Incidentally back then we had a pretty much equal division of both shod and un shod horses and ponies. We simply shod those that needed shoes and didn't on those that didn't need them. I have done very similar with my own over the years. If they were happy and healthy unshod then they stayed unshod, if they were better going in shoes then shoes they had.

There is so much new information and education available these days that all though very helpful and probably has saved many equines from pain and even PTS in some cases, it does confuse me in some ways as there is so much disagreement between the professionals about what is good and what is not that I often wonder where the safe middle ground is? I try to read professional write ups on most things equine, purely out of ongoing interest and glad to learn anything new that improves horse keeping, but even to my jaded old eye some of the stuff from so called professionals does come over as pretty horrific. :confused:
 
just boots and pads for me for laminitis. Dry towelling the feet, boots, pad and using athletes foot powder helped. . That way as soon as they can start moving they can be led straight out.

having over the many years tried paper, cardboard, shavings, straw, peat and just about anything else except aubiose I hated the lot. In the early 90's I realised my shavings bill was more than my hay bill. So I moved onto the fieldguard system in 1993 and have never looked back. Those were brilliant for arthritis and for lami ponies who had just come out of boots. I initially put a stable down to them for a 30yo arthritic and they made such a difference for the last year of his life.
 
Mrs. Jingle said:
I am also old school, well I could even go so far as to say old university of horse keeping in my case. I won't bore you with my credentials. :rolleyes: I can remember bedding them down on peat, it would be skipped out daily and more dry added as needed, Probably entirely removed and replaced every 3 months'ish as far as I can remember. Very soft, dry and forgiving bedding, I can't remember a single case of thrush back then, their stables didn't smell either. But then we were probably more scrupulous about skipping out and also picking feet out before coming in and before going out again too.🤷‍♀️

I seem to recall it was spread on the land after use and a very ecofriendly circle of use I suppose. I wonder to any people still use it for bedding their horses, I know it is still used over here in farming, not sure about equines though. Incidentally back then we had a pretty much equal division of both shod and un shod horses and ponies. We simply shod those that needed shoes and didn't on those that didn't need them. I have done very similar with my own over the years. If they were happy and healthy unshod then they stayed unshod, if they were better going in shoes then shoes they had.

There is so much new information and education available these days that all though very helpful and probably has saved many equines from pain and even PTS in some cases, it does confuse me in some ways as there is so much disagreement between the professionals about what is good and what is not that I often wonder where the safe middle ground is? I try to read professional write ups on most things equine, purely out of ongoing interest and glad to learn anything new that improves horse keeping, but even to my jaded old eye some of the stuff from so called professionals does come over as pretty horrific. :confused:
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Sounds about right!
My grandparents used peat bed for Welsh ponies, I should think it would be very good for laminitis, altho in UK there is prohibition against using it for almost any purpose now.
Re the thrush, I searched on line saddlers / agri merchants recently - for something else entirely - and was amazed at the sheer numbers of potions and products for hoof thrush! It is clearly a significant problem to warrant all this - so where’s that coming from?
 
paddy555 said:
just boots and pads for me for laminitis. Dry towelling the feet, boots, pad and using athletes foot powder helped. . That way as soon as they can start moving they can be led straight out.

having over the many years tried paper, cardboard, shavings, straw, peat and just about anything else except aubiose I hated the lot. In the early 90's I realised my shavings bill was more than my hay bill. So I moved onto the fieldguard system in 1993 and have never looked back. Those were brilliant for arthritis and for lami ponies who had just come out of boots. I initially put a stable down to them for a 30yo arthritic and they made such a difference for the last year of his life.
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The Fieldguard rubber mats on little pegs, clipped together with backing plates? Very bouncy? A revolution!
A neighbour bought into this for an asthmatic, just used a bucket of shavings in one corner to indicate where to wee, swept the lot out every day, and could hosepipe beneath to flush clean - it was brilliant. Later she stopped the shavings pile, and horse’s breathing completely recovered. Are Fieldguard still going?
I couldn’t afford it, so bought Equimat EVA for our stables (worn exceptionally well), used with cross shredded newspaper to soak up, never found any reluctance to lie down, including the old lady that lived to be 40.
Today I do bed down with straw, but for different reasons, plus have plenty of it. On top of EVA, but also found some of today’s Eva brand mats go hard or start to degrade very quickly.
Mayo top of range might be the aspiration now - cannot justify, tho!
 
Cal
Exasperated said:
Sounds about right!
My grandparents used peat bed for Welsh ponies, I should think it would be very good for laminitis, altho in UK there is prohibition against using it for almost any purpose now.
Re the thrush, I searched on line saddlers / agri merchants recently - for something else entirely - and was amazed at the sheer numbers of potions and products for hoof thrush! It is clearly a significant problem to warrant all this - so where’s that coming from?
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Ps. Calf shed was peat as well, didn’t smell at all, even my mother was happy to take their milk buckets in there!
 
I really liked hemp bedding (several UK / Yorkshire made brands are available too) for my thrush probe horse and I feel like he was actively less thrushy when using it. If you make it thick enough then the top layer should stay pretty much bone dry with all urine being pulled into the base. (I used to take the wet out about once a week and top up with a new bale but some people leave longer between dig outs, especially in communal barn setups)

I found it much less dusty than shavings as well once it had settled.

I’ve never really liked shavings tbh… prefer straw as find it a much quicker muck out but hate the smell you get and how big the muck heap gets with it.

None of my concern now as don’t stable.
 
Exasperated said:
The Fieldguard rubber mats on little pegs, clipped together with backing plates? Very bouncy? A revolution!
A neighbour bought into this for an asthmatic, just used a bucket of shavings in one corner to indicate where to wee, swept the lot out every day, and could hosepipe beneath to flush clean - it was brilliant. Later she stopped the shavings pile, and horse’s breathing completely recovered. Are Fieldguard still going?
I couldn’t afford it, so bought Equimat EVA for our stables (worn exceptionally well), used with cross shredded newspaper to soak up, never found any reluctance to lie down, including the old lady that lived to be 40.
Today I do bed down with straw, but for different reasons, plus have plenty of it. On top of EVA, but also found some of today’s Eva brand mats go hard or start to degrade very quickly.
Mayo top of range might be the aspiration now - cannot justify, tho!
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fieldguard are still going i think and so are my mats after over 30 years. Yes they are the ones on little legs :D

They were expensive and we struggled to afford them but having done the first stable we realised that we couldn't afford not to do the rest in view of the tremendous saving on shavings and most of all on our own labour mucking out deep litter plus the stink of ammonia.

Mayo top of the range comfort mats are not my aspiration. I had to mat a stable at very short notice for a poorly horse about 6 years ago. the only mats I could find to buy and collect that day were the thick mayo comfort mattress ones. Having paid an awful lot of money to mat a stable for him the horse was sadly PTS a week later.
the mats took a very long time ie years to lay flat and stay flat. They are OK but nothing to write home about. Even if I had all the money in the world I wouldn't do another stable with them.
 
paddy555 said:
fieldguard are still going i think and so are my mats after over 30 years. Yes they are the ones on little legs :D

They were expensive and we struggled to afford them but having done the first stable we realised that we couldn't afford not to do the rest in view of the tremendous saving on shavings and most of all on our own labour mucking out deep litter plus the stink of ammonia.

Mayo top of the range comfort mats are not my aspiration. I had to mat a stable at very short notice for a poorly horse about 6 years ago. the only mats I could find to buy and collect that day were the thick mayo comfort mattress ones. Having paid an awful lot of money to mat a stable for him the horse was sadly PTS a week later.
the mats took a very long time ie years to lay flat and stay flat. They are OK but nothing to write home about. Even if I had all the money in the world I wouldn't do another stable with them.
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Great story about trampoline Fieldguard, not so happy about the poorly one you lost, but useful heads up - potentially saved me from myself....
 
paddy555 said:
I have never used Aubiose however a farrier years ago told me he hated it because it compacted terribly in shod feet and put pressure on the sole so what he hated MJ suggests for exactly the same reason ie to give support. (these are barefoot lami horses)

It may well cause thrush however if you rehab laminitics by booting/padding then continual booting also causes thrush.
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Re this, conformable etc, someone I was at uni with, who did vet medicine and has worked abroad most of her life - typically been using deep beach sand for laminitis boxes, which is apparently excellent.
The sand subsequently goes back to the beach, where the tide washes it through. Sounds more suitable and sustainable than what happens here.
 
I posted this in tack room but maybe I should post on here as well. I need help to understand these X Rays as I don’t seem to be able to see what the improvement is , can someone enlighten me please
 
splashgirl45 said:
I posted this in tack room but maybe I should post on here as well. I need help to understand these X Rays as I don’t seem to be able to see what the improvement is , can someone enlighten me please
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I don't recognise these x rays as I am not on the HM or phoenix FB sites. However I gather from your post on the main board that they have been taken from another site possibly one of those two. Do you have permission please to use these pics? If not please can you edit your post and remove them. I really don't want to get this thread closed down and FAT has been generous to allow it. So far I think that everyone has been very careful.

I suspect that if HM complained then FAT would have to remove both this thread and your thread on the main board.
Thank you. :)
 
one of our members very kindly reminded me I should have drawn attention to a post and comments from last night. Thanks for reminding me :):)

I have tried to post a link and am failing miserably but I'm sure someone else can

it is on the FB group "the study of the equine hoof" and it is a post that begins " if you firmly believe the current teaching of 2 lay people in the UK"

we can all guess what this is refering to, please don't mention any names or trimming method. We don't want to put FAT in a difficult position.

some of the comments are interesting and it is well worth a read. A fondness for money does seem to come into it. :D:D:D:D
 
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