BARGY BU#GER! :(

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simoneleslie

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ok, i'm new to all this online forum thing so i hope this post ends up in the right place! :)

i've got a 15'2hh middle weigh cob who has no respect for anything! :(

he used to barge right out of his stable & dash off as soon as the stable door was opened! i have recently got him out of that habbit but i think given the chance he'd do it again, so i'm still doing the things i did to keep it so he doesnt! he's lovely in the stable though :)

the issue i'm having is .. when he wants to be somewhere he'll do his very best to be there.. for example, leading him down from the stable to the feild he has recently on the odd accation started bolting off dragging the lead rope out of my hand, head down & off he goes, theres no way i can keep hold of him! i know this is a case of ground work, walking & stopping ect.. is there anything else i can do?

also, we was working in the manage the other day & he wanted out so he felt the need to go up to the menage gate & try walking right through it! :mad: he does this against barbed wire fence to try get to the feild also.. anyway i can try stop him from trying to walk through things!

he's in a snaffle big & so perfect & gentle to ride, such a different horse under saddle!

thank you in advance for any replies given :)
 
I had a similar problem with my 17.2 warmbloodxshire. She'd be fine for me but anyone short (i'm 6'1) and she'd play silly ******s with them. She's now in a parelli style rope halter and is much better behaved. We had micky gavin to do some ground work with her and it was the best money ever spent. By the time he'd finished she walked like a lamb at the side of him. Not sure were you are but if your close enough for mickey to come i'd highly recommend him.....He's not everyones cup of tea and tends to say it as it is, but he did the trick for me :-)
 
mdfreeman37 said:
I had a similar problem with my 17.2 warmbloodxshire. She'd be fine for me but anyone short (i'm 6'1) and she'd play silly ******s with them. She's now in a parelli style rope halter and is much better behaved. We had micky gavin to do some ground work with her and it was the best money ever spent. By the time he'd finished she walked like a lamb at the side of him. Not sure were you are but if your close enough for mickey to come i'd highly recommend him.....He's not everyones cup of tea and tends to say it as it is, but he did the trick for me :-)
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I've had a parelli woman out to work with him last week, she did one session with him & he did what was asked of him by the end, shes just recently broken her wrist though & cant come to him for 8 weeks :( so i'm on my own up untill then as there is no other person close enough to come out to us without a huge travel charge. absolute nightmare lol!

so just needed a few tips to help me till shes ready to come again, he is lead with a parelli rope halter at all times but its like he doesnt feel the pressure :confused:
 
:-( Thats a pain!!!! The one thing I do get told off about by my OH is not having the halter on the right place. Might be worth having a look to check as if it's not on the right spot on the nose isn't as effective so might be worth checking as I thought i'd got it in the right place but hadn't. Parelli do a 30 day free trial you can sign up for if your interested and want to have a look to see if theres any help on there as well.

https://www.parelliconnect.com/home/pricing
 
mdfreeman37 said:
:-( Thats a pain!!!! The one thing I do get told off about by my OH is not having the halter on the right place. Might be worth having a look to check as if it's not on the right spot on the nose isn't as effective so might be worth checking as I thought i'd got it in the right place but hadn't. Parelli do a 30 day free trial you can sign up for if your interested and want to have a look to see if theres any help on there as well.

https://www.parelliconnect.com/home/pricing
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that could be a possibility actually, having it in the wrong place, i'll check that out this evening. thank you for the link to the website, i'll check that out too :)
 
I can tell you how I delt with issues with one of mine, and you can take and try any of the info to see if it works for you.

My problems:
Barging stable door
Wont be caught
pushes and barges gates and post and rail fencing breaking the wood in half!
pulling, bucking and rushing off on the lead

What I did:
Stable door - I put up 2 barge chains, and I put a head collar on over the door before opening the door. Im on guard when opening the door, and firmly say "back, back" and ensure he walks 2 steps back

Catching - I would bring in all the other horses, and leave him till last, then if he wouldnt be caught, I left the field gat open (it comes straight on to the yard) and his stable door open with a bucket of chaff etc, within about 2 weeks, he was one of the first at the gate to come in, and be caught.

Pushing and barging fences and gates - I find this particular horse rather clumsy, he isnt bothered that the gap in the gate isnt opened wide enough for him, he will still try his luck and not appear to care about it hurting (im sure it must hurt!) Elec cord run along all fences and gates appears to have solved the problem.

Walking in hand on the lead - I put him straight in to a chifney over a head collar. The first time he tried it, he got a heck of a shock when he pulled against the chiffney. once he understood that he was not going to be able to get away he began to listen and learn. I began by only being attached to the chifney, because that does not allow a moment of hesitation, I taught him wooah to stop and "walk on" to walk, I did this by gently pulling on the chiffney while saying woo until he stopped (WARNING -a chifney can be very harsh, so only use as much force as is necessary), I would then ask him to walk on a few strides, then repeat & repeat. Pleasingly he swiftly learnt that a. he couldn't get away from me, b. to stop when asked & c. to move when asked. I then started to run 2 lead ropes, one attached to the headcollar and one on the chiffney, and I would start the pull and woooha on the head collar, and if he didnt listen I would put pressure on the chifney, and basically began using the chiffney less and less etc....Now I will lead him on a loose lead rein with no chifney, and when I saw woooah he will stop, and obviously "walk on" to walk. he doesnt drag me anywhere any more :D

When training this and as quickly as possible I stopped any sort of tight contact via the lead to the horse, ie the lead would loop down between my hand and the horse, and I ensure that the horse doesnt drag behind or rush ahead, I expect them to walk with me. a bit like a dog walking to heal on a loose lead
 
RachelBristol said:
I can tell you how I delt with issues with one of mine, and you can take and try any of the info to see if it works for you.

My problems:
Barging stable door
Wont be caught
pushes and barges gates and post and rail fencing breaking the wood in half!
pulling, bucking and rushing off on the lead

What I did:
Stable door - I put up 2 barge chains, and I put a head collar on over the door before opening the door. Im on guard when opening the door, and firmly say "back, back" and ensure he walks 2 steps back

Catching - I would bring in all the other horses, and leave him till last, then if he wouldnt be caught, I left the field gat open (it comes straight on to the yard) and his stable door open with a bucket of chaff etc, within about 2 weeks, he was one of the first at the gate to come in, and be caught.

Pushing and barging fences and gates - I find this particular horse rather clumsy, he isnt bothered that the gap in the gate isnt opened wide enough for him, he will still try his luck and not appear to care about it hurting (im sure it must hurt!) Elec cord run along all fences and gates appears to have solved the problem.

Walking in hand on the lead - I put him straight in to a chifney over a head collar. The first time he tried it, he got a heck of a shock when he pulled against the chiffney. once he understood that he was not going to be able to get away he began to listen and learn. I began by only being attached to the chifney, because that does not allow a moment of hesitation, I taught him wooah to stop and "walk on" to walk, I did this by gently pulling on the chiffney while saying woo until he stopped (WARNING -a chifney can be very harsh, so only use as much force as is necessary), I would then ask him to walk on a few strides, then repeat & repeat. Pleasingly he swiftly learnt that a. he couldn't get away from me, b. to stop when asked & c. to move when asked. I then started to run 2 lead ropes, one attached to the headcollar and one on the chiffney, and I would start the pull and woooha on the head collar, and if he didnt listen I would put pressure on the chifney, and basically began using the chiffney less and less etc....Now I will lead him on a loose lead rein with no chifney, and when I saw woooah he will stop, and obviously "walk on" to walk. he doesnt drag me anywhere any more :D

When training this and as quickly as possible I stopped any sort of tight contact via the lead to the horse, ie the lead would loop down between my hand and the horse, and I ensure that the horse doesnt drag behind or rush ahead, I expect them to walk with me. a bit like a dog walking to heal on a loose lead
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super, thank you for all that advice, will put some into practice :)
 
I feel for you... Some really annoying problems!

Re the Barging, this isn't one that I have had to deal with myself but I would be tempted to put a chain or bar up across the doorway (probably a bar given his tendency to barge) so that he doesn't associate door opening with coming out immediately. put headcollar on over stable door and ask him to step backwards when you enter the stable- use a schooling whip on his chest if needs be. reward with a pat and a treat when he does as he is told.

Re the pulling away when led issue. I would DEFINITELY lead him with a chiffney and a lungeline. He will very quickly learn that he cannot get away from you. My 17.2hh has. This is such a dangerous naughty habbit to get into - especially with bigger horses and one that needs nipping in the bud pronto.

Barging through fences - Electric fencing with a good zap in it... at least two, if not 3 rows...
 
CBFan said:
I feel for you... Some really annoying problems!

Re the Barging, this isn't one that I have had to deal with myself but I would be tempted to put a chain or bar up across the doorway (probably a bar given his tendency to barge) so that he doesn't associate door opening with coming out immediately. put headcollar on over stable door and ask him to step backwards when you enter the stable- use a schooling whip on his chest if needs be. reward with a pat and a treat when he does as he is told.

Re the pulling away when led issue. I would DEFINITELY lead him with a chiffney and a lungeline. He will very quickly learn that he cannot get away from you. My 17.2hh has. This is such a dangerous naughty habbit to get into - especially with bigger horses and one that needs nipping in the bud pronto.

Barging through fences - Electric fencing with a good zap in it... at least two, if not 3 rows...
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please will you explain (if easy enough over typing) how to use a chiffney bit, ive seen numerous posts saying you need to know how to use it properly first & ive never used one before so i wouldnt even know where to start & i dont want to make a bigger problem, sorry to be pain :)
 
I had the same issue with our cob. We tried all the nice kind alternatives for a year and now if he's having one of his "moments" (which are far far less than they were) he gets the chifney. It's instantly effective and just having it in his mouth is all he needs. He was just as you describe OP and it doesn't matter how much eye rolling "don't let go" advice you get, there's no way you will win a battle of strength with a determined horse and, imo, it can be extremely dangerous to try. My horse really doesn't care who he takes out when he's having an episode! On our yard it's just too dangerous to have it happen. If my 20 stone husband hanging off his head doesn't slow him down then I dread to think the damage he could do to one of the teenage staff girls.

When it comes to actually using the chifney it's really very straightforward. My only advice is don't put a long rope on it. Ours has about 18" of lead rope on and we dont touch it unless he's bad. He gets a quick no and a short pull on the rope and then instant release. We've learnt to read his behaviour and he only gets the chifney on if he's obviously full of himself. If he's all chest and pretending to be 17.2 we know he's feeling naughty!! :D

We found his behaviour was massively helped by a complete change of diet, implementation of routine and lots of varied work. It might be worth having a look at that side of your horse's life too.

Btw before anyone advises me... it was 4 years of parelli at the hands of a novice (but very well intentioned owner) that created the monster!
 
Any method including parrelli is dangerous in the wrong hands........The OP has already had a professional out to help them but is stuck for 8 weeks due to an injury. While my OH has done some natural horsemanship she made the wise decision to get a professional to help (she's been involved at all levels including yard manager) and it worked for me but the P word was never mentioned when working with mickey as he doesn't do gimmicks lol.


Sadly there's no wrong way or right way as each horse is an individual. I hope the OP can get the end result they are looking for and I wish them the best of luck.
 
IME a chifney is like a choke chain on a dog - if you are experienced enough to know how to use one sensitively and with good timing, you probably don't need to.
All the horses on my yard are taught to respect my space. I do use american rope halters all the time, with at least a 12ft line, and then do some training (this stuff doesn't just happen by itself lol).
Walk around, ideally in a school etc where there is no tempation like grass to dive for) with horse following, then from time to time turn round and stretch out both arms towards the horse like a barrier with the rope between your hands. If he is closer than that he has invaded your space so back him out of it. After about 4 or 5 times he will get the idea and stay respectfully behind you. If he comes upsides or infront, turn smartly away from him so he is behind you again, and do the space thing. No shouting or hitting, just persistence. It not only stops barging but it does teach them respect for you and your space.
Once you have that sorted, in the stable each and every time before you open the door back him up one step. Then go in - you will have your space around you he knows not to invade so he will stay back.
It needs doing a handful of times to ensure he has got it, and then now and again if he forgets, but it really does work a treat. You have to be 100% consistent in the space you have defined, it isn't easy to describe but he has to learn that area which he has to keep clear of. It worked here on a 20 year old who had never been taught anything like that and was a 17hh heavyweight hunter type, if he barged you just got out of his way!!.
Oh, and it came from Mark Rashid, who I have seen transform hyper bargy TBs to relaxed laid back horses in 10 minutes using this invading your space thing. If you can find someone local who know Marks work it would be a great idea to ask them to help.
 
simoneleslie said:
please will you explain (if easy enough over typing) how to use a chiffney bit, ive seen numerous posts saying you need to know how to use it properly first & ive never used one before so i wouldnt even know where to start & i dont want to make a bigger problem, sorry to be pain :)
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To be honest with you, as already suggested, it isn't the sort of thing that you will need to 'use' unless neccessary. If you put it on, and you lead from it, generally a fairly slack rope will be all that is required but if the horse does go to move away from you, the chiffney comes into play and will give them quite a shock in the process YOU don't really have to do anything...the horse almost does it to himself...
 
CBFan said:
To be honest with you, as already suggested, it isn't the sort of thing that you will need to 'use' unless neccessary. If you put it on, and you lead from it, generally a fairly slack rope will be all that is required but if the horse does go to move away from you, the chiffney comes into play and will give them quite a shock in the process YOU don't really have to do anything...the horse almost does it to himself...
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because when he does decide to bolt.. he just goes full power without even thinking. will this cause any damage to his mouth as it pulls or is it just pain for him? sorry for all the questions :confused: i dont know much about the chiffney bit
 
I haven't read all the replies. I had a horse who has always been bargy. She went on loan and did masses of eventing, etc, but came back still Bargy in the stable. I decided I had nothing to loose and tried positive reinforcement.

So every time you go into the stable make the horse take two steps back and then give it a treat. You may have to ask really firmly at first ( I poked her In her front if she didn't move back immediately) but after about three times she offered it and now just does it automatically when I go into the stable .... Bliss.

If you wanted to go the whole route then explore clicker training for good manners. It is so nice to always be looking for the good things and then saying thank you rather than having a more confrontational relationship. Amongst others I used Hannah Dawson equine as I loved her on line videos but there are many other resources.
 
Mine was an out of the blue bolter too. Tbh it took professional re-schooling and a change of yards to stop that happening. I'd look to see if there's something about the environment yours doesn't like. Now mine doesn't bolt any more he's just bargy and likes to rush you out the way. Tbh with the chifney it just doesn't happen. He knows that it's not worth the bother and he behaves because his issue is just plain rudeness.

A chifney will cause damage if you haul on it or your horse gets caught on something, that's why you don't use a long rope. You could always give it a try in a more confined area to start with so that if he gets away he can't just keep going. Don't be scared of it though it's not the torture device some people would suggest. If it is you're not using it properly. We put off using one for ages because I was terrified of hurting him. I wish we'd done it months and months before.
 
Personally if you dont know how to handle a horse in a chiffney i wouldnt use it, id school with the rope halter and long line,they will learn to be respectful and also to give you space, I love the way Richard Maxwell teaches bargy horses to be respectful, my rope halter and long rope are pieces of equipment i wont be without and ive successfully used them on the bolshiest of horses who are now happy to be led in headcollars and a rope, but if they were to need reminding, its the first tool id use again
 
simoneleslie said:
because when he does decide to bolt.. he just goes full power without even thinking. will this cause any damage to his mouth as it pulls or is it just pain for him? sorry for all the questions :confused: i dont know much about the chiffney bit
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Yes a chiffney can cause pain in the mouth, and is why it must be used sparingly with only as much pressure on it as is needed.

In my experience if a horse tries to run in a chiffney when being led, they tend to stop fairly swiftly, and not try it again.
 
Firstly if you do decide to use a Chifney please ask a RI to help you, if used wrong they can do a lot of damadge!

Secondly you need to get him to respect your personal space and respect you as a leader. To do this you need to be firm and set him rules. I would put a stable chain on the door and put his headcollar on over the door. Ask him to back up before opening the door, it may take a while but do not give in. Once he has backed up and door opened, go in with him, if he is still standing still then praise and walk out. If he moves torwards the now opened door, make him back up. Give him a firm "AH AH" and push his shoulder (be firm!!) It is YOUR decision when he leaves the stable and not his. Lead out only when he has remained stood still. Doing this alone will make him respect you more which will help with the tanking off.

When leading, if he begins to get a bit bargy then give a sharp "Ah Ah" and half halt the leadrope. If he continues then give 2 or 3 downwards sharp tugs on the leadrope. Praise when he is walking nicely. With bargy Horses the worst thing you can do is just pull agaisn't them. By doing this you are giving them something to pull on and the Horse will always win. IME Horses react best to short sharp tugs or an "AH AH" which makes them stop and think (doesn't work with all Horses, but the majority)
 
A friend of ours attempted to show us how our parelli trained horse would work with a rope halter and long rope. He drew himself up whipped round and fired both barrels at her before hauling the 18 foot of rope through her hands! The first thing he did when he came to us was rip all the skin off my husband's hands with his magic rope. He's unlungable and will happily bolt so quickly he rips the rope off caveson. He's a bad b*stard. We have a no ropes rule now :D He also likes to use the space principle to rush you from behind. If he wasn't so damn handsome he'd be burgers!

I so wish he respected all those years of training he had. I've never met one like him before :D
 
canteron said:
I decided I had nothing to loose and tried positive reinforcement.

So every time you go into the stable make the horse take two steps back and then give it a treat. You may have to ask really firmly at first ( I poked her In her front if she didn't move back immediately) but after about three times she offered it and now just does it automatically when I go into the stable .... Bliss..
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Have recently started doing this with mine. Really really has helped already. Have used chifneys in the past though and would again if I had a big horse that I was struggling with. Keep going with the groundwork, it can only help!
Hope you manage to crack it, good luck!
 
simoneleslie said:
I've had a parelli woman out to work with him last week, she did one session with him & he did what was asked of him by the end, shes just recently broken her wrist though & cant come to him for 8 weeks :( so i'm on my own up untill then as there is no other person close enough to come out to us without a huge travel charge. absolute nightmare lol!

so just needed a few tips to help me till shes ready to come again, he is lead with a parelli rope halter at all times but its like he doesnt feel the pressure :confused:
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Ditch the parelli and get someone else to help you.

Lead him in a bit so you have more control. Lead with hat and whip. Give him a tap if he comes into your space.

*backing out of thread now as it contains the 'p' word*
 
blackandwhite said:
A friend of ours attempted to show us how our parelli trained horse would work with a rope halter and long rope. He drew himself up whipped round and fired both barrels at her before hauling the 18 foot of rope through her hands! The first thing he did when he came to us was rip all the skin off my husband's hands with his magic rope. He's unlungable and will happily bolt so quickly he rips the rope off caveson. He's a bad b*stard. We have a no ropes rule now :D He also likes to use the space principle to rush you from behind. If he wasn't so damn handsome he'd be burgers!

I so wish he respected all those years of training he had. I've never met one like him before :D
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I suspect that may be as much resentment at the harshness of the Parelli trianing as anything else. It is very good at teaching bold horses to fight back IME.
The secret of a long line is timing, and unfortunately that isn't something someone can tell you how to do. Often confined space, let them go if necessary and then pick it up where you left off, without a word, so it has cost him effort and acheived him nothing, can be the answer and something he needs to learn. We are back to reinforcement again - just look at everything in terms of reinforcement and "what did he get out of that?"
 
Your Parelli woman may have had your horse doing what she wanted of him by the end of the session, but she didn't teach you anything in the process.

Rope halters, or Dually halters, or Be-Nice halters, or any other type of so-called 'controller' halters are not magical. There is a definite technique to using them, and it all hinges on the handler's ability to use pressure and release to train the horse into a new way of behaving.

A chifney is certainly going to stop your horse from doing certain things, but it won't address the gaps in your horse's training which have allowed him to become disrespectful and bargy.

Training horses is not about making them do things, or forcing them to behave because they are afraid of the consequences. It is about handling them correctly and consistently so that they become habitually well-behaved.

I wouldn't recommend Parelli, because I have particular dislikes of most of the methods they teach people and horses. I would, however, say that you should seek someone who understands the principles of pressure and release training, who will come and teach your horse to yield to pressure, and who will help you understand what you must do to establish a relationship with your horse where he does as he's asked and is respectful of you. It should only take about an hour to sort out.
 
LaurenBay said:
With bargy Horses the worst thing you can do is just pull agaisn't them. By doing this you are giving them something to pull on and the Horse will always win. IME Horses react best to short sharp tugs or an "AH AH" which makes them stop and think (doesn't work with all Horses, but the majority)
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I agree... and also sometimes you have to use the strongest tool in your box, with the least effort to get the same end result...my boy leads like a lamb in a chiffney but would happily ****** off in any type of pressure / 'control' halter...

As already said, chifneys aren't something to be scared of but you do need to respect their strength... they have been used successfully for decades and not always in the most skilled of hands...
 
Afraid I have nothing to say, think you have good advice already. Did anyone else read the title and immediately convert into "BARGY BURGER"? or is that just me? :p
 
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