BE -Calling Dressage Stewards/Organizers !!!

[kerilli]

So you should also know that the judge is checking more than the rider, as they do for BE and BD.

Strange that only BE need to do this sort of thing at every comp. Especially in view of the comments above about it being the riders job to know and abide by the rules....then not trusting them to do so!

knowing them and abiding by them are two different things... not abiding by them can impinge upon horse welfare, and the FEI code of conduct. at a top FEI event i've seen every horse's boots removed, inspected and weighed. it's very naive to assume that just because everyone knows the rules, everyone will also abide by them all.

as for your first point, i don't understand... are you agreeing that judges do check horse, tack etc?

 

[B-B]

rvb99 - Are you talking about the wearing or not wearing of jackets on a very hot/humid day? Because if you are, you don't seem to be making much sense..

BE do allow you to ride without a jacket for dressage and show jumping so I fail to see how 'there will soon be an accident that will bring in a new policy'..?
Eventing has been going on for years, and on hot summers days too. I remember competing on the hottest day back in 2003 (it was 37.5 degrees that day!) and I don't recall any serious incidents due to the heat..

Perhaps you could share with us what steps you would suggest BE take regarding 'risk and liability management' when it comes to the wearing of jackets on a very hot day..?

Its all in the text in the previous pages.

Makes perfect sense.

 

[kerilli]

If its the riders responsibility, then why do BE tack check.

Why not health check?

because they might cheat! isn't that obvious?

health check? what, a quick BMI count, blood pressure, "are you fit enough" test, that sort of thing? sounds like a great idea.

 

[B-B]

knowing them and abiding by them are two different things... not abiding by them can impinge upon horse welfare, and the FEI code of conduct. at a top FEI event i've seen every horse's boots removed, inspected and weighed. it's very naive to assume that just because everyone knows the rules, everyone will also abide by them all.

as for your first point, i don't understand... are you agreeing that judges do check horse, tack etc?

So its the riders responsibility but BE's responsibility to check. So everyone is worried about insulting judge, jury but not cheating?

Why cant they take the same responsibility for health?

I know what judges do and dont check. The post I was responding to stated that the stewards check the horse and the judge checks the riders. Not true.

The judges do the same whether at BD or BE. If they see something that shouldnt be there, they will not start the test, if they see it in time.

 

[AandK]

B-B - Thanks for a most unhelpful response, you make as much sense as rvb99.

I really don't see what else you expect BE to do regarding jackets and hot weather. Competitors are not forced to wear them so what is the problem?

A proper answer would be appreciated instead of just saying 'it's all in the previous text'.

 

[B-B]

It would be easier for your to read the 13 pages than to cut and paste the answers...and the question has been answered several times.

Sorry to be so unhelpful...especially when you have been so polite.

 

[LEC]

The future?

Arrive at BE event collect number, pay extortionate start fee, weigh in, blood test, heart check, quick fitness check - pay additional fee if you have gone up in weight or down in fitness.

Tack up pony and go over to dressage warm up on unplaited pony with quarter marks no longer used but instead stable stains in artful ways.

A committee will be drawn up from all ages, sexes and as ethnically diverse as possible to check whether everyone is happy with the decisions made on clothing. This decision will be communicated to the steward to inform people what they can wear when they turn up for dressage.

The steward will monitor temperatures and tell you whether you can wear the BE rain coat, jacket, short sleeves or just a wife beater vest. Those who are big boobed will have been warned at the secretaries about high temperatures and additional support may be required if wearing the BE wife beater vest to prevent judges having a heart attack while sitting trot down the centre line commences.

 

[smac]

health check? what, a quick BMI count, blood pressure, "are you fit enough" test, that sort of thing? sounds like a great idea.

Would solve some problems for the NHS surely?!

I'm pretty sure some where it says in the BE booklet- ensure you and your horse are fit to perform. In schedules it says course hilly/ up hill finish so fit horse required.

Surely under your OP B-B BE have done what you want.

Please explain to me why you started this topic? Someone has already posted that the steward at MK told them they could remove their jacket-- to which they had already worked out due to other riders. In the rule book it says the jacket can be removed at the discretion on the BE steward.

Are you saying a note needs to go out on the "Lorry Park" email. "In hot weather you can ask to remove your jacket" or should every event add to their schedule "In the event of hot weather blah blah blah" Sorry I would rather they spent their time making an effort on the ground etc!

Or are you saying that people are frikking crazy riding in extreme weather in hot clothes. I kinda agree with you on that. But I will still wear my jacket. You can attack back that its old tradition, snobby stuck up etc. Im just frikking crazy

To an earlier post of mine you said (non direct quote) how fortunate I was to have help. and that I was clearly no beginner to eventing. Even a beginner (you would hope from a H&S POV) would a.) have help at their first 1 or 2 BE's at least. Or done some homework visiting events before hand. And 2.) they would have done some early prep work/un affiliated competitions etc before so they are not doing a BE as their FIRST EVER competition without some thought to the rules.

LEC- Brilliant. but then we would all have to go home and start the SJ the following day as time wouldn't allow the repeat process. A whole new definition to 3-day eventing... so thats the real reason they stopped roads and tracks- to slowly bring in weigh-ins and fashion discussion

 

[oldvic]

Not according to BD.

Yes they do at BD.

So you are a judge?

They do the same for BE as they do for BD - within the rules.

So what list are you?

Yes they do have to keep an eye out for those things and if they see them before the horse goes in they will tell the rider so they don't have to eliminate them.
Yes, they are focused on the scales of training and are not judging the turnout but a) the rider should have enough respect for their horse to show him off well turned out and b) dressage is about the training but presentation and showmanship comes into it. If a mark is 6/7 then the judge doesn't always go up. If it is nearer the 6 then they will go down. If it is very much either/or then they will vary it otherwise the horse could come out as much as 5% higher than it should.
So few horses aren't plaited in BE that it isn't hard to say how many are unplaited at the end of judging 45 or so horses. While it doesn't affect the marks it can accentuate faults like an unsteady head, tipping head or tension through the poll.

Also if it is so hot that it is of such risk to riders then it is probably too hot for the horses so the event will be cancelled - problem solved!!!

 

[B-B]

I really dint need ti explain.

OldV you are clearly not listed. Judges ALWAYS go up. The look to find the marks not take them away.

And judged really dont need a horse to be plaited to see a tilt at the poll. What a dim view you have of judges.

If they see the error before the test they will stop the rider before the test begins or deduct marks according to the new rules. ..or,if the rule book states...eliminate.

And that respect is now after going to the judge..the landowner..BE....is now for the horse. BE isno different from other disciplines....other than suspecting its riders of cheating!

 

[B-B]

Where on the dressage sheet do you mark for showmanship?

Thats a new one for me.

 

[rvb99]

rvb99 - Are you talking about the wearing or not wearing of jackets on a very hot/humid day? Because if you are, you don't seem to be making much sense..

BE do allow you to ride without a jacket for dressage and show jumping so I fail to see how 'there will soon be an accident that will bring in a new policy'..?
Eventing has been going on for years, and on hot summers days too. I remember competing on the hottest day back in 2003 (it was 37.5 degrees that day!) and I don't recall any serious incidents due to the heat..

Perhaps you could share with us what steps you would suggest BE take regarding 'risk and liability management' when it comes to the wearing of jackets on a very hot day..?

I have already provided a simple proposal, based on what we practice in France - read my other postings.

 

[kerilli]

I really dint need ti explain.

OldV you are clearly not listed. Judges ALWAYS go up. The look to find the marks not take them away.

And judged really dont need a horse to be plaited to see a tilt at the poll. What a dim view you have of judges.

If they see the error before the test they will stop the rider before the test begins or deduct marks according to the new rules. ..or,if the rule book states...eliminate.

And that respect is now after going to the judge..the landowner..BE....is now for the horse. BE isno different from other disciplines....other than suspecting its riders of cheating!

HAHAHAHAHAHA thankyou, B-B, for giving me the best laugh I have EVER had on HHO.

Trust me, I know who "oldvic" is (and no, I won't tell, anyone, and I won't give any hints either), and I can assure you that you have seriously underestimated who you are 'talking' to here. Your first sentence is absolutely risible, trust me on that.
I can't tell whether you are being argumentative for the sake of it, but honestly, you are wrong on this.

 

[Lolo]

Where on the dressage sheet do you mark for showmanship?

Thats a new one for me.

To me, showmanship is presenting your horse in the best way to maximise whatever they've got to offer.

I used to maximise the amount of time I'd canter for, ensure any possible transition I did that could be done facing away from the judge (rather than in a corner) was done so the judge didn't see that my horse would open his mouth wide open. I'd minimise my walk by leaving all the transitions downwards as late as possible and moving back up as early as possible... This all meant that I could gloss over the fact that his walk was his worse pace by a long shot, his canter was his best and the judge did give me more marks- especially on the paces and submission section!

That's not good dressage riding or training, that's getting more marks by hiding the worse bits... Watch children who show a lot ride a dressage test- no matter how badly it's going, they do a good job of glossing the worst over because they've learnt showmanship.

I do think it's odd a new member has arrived just in the knickers of time to agree with B-B... And slate BE on every other possible thread!

 

[rvb99]

i hate to say it, but accidents don't dominate BE policy much, at least in my experience of the sport. this is a RISK sport. people die doing it, and yet the sport rolls on... and the same risks are still there. i've been at an event where we still jumped the jump that someone died at earlier in the day. that's a fact of the sport. so, imho fussing about riders getting overheated really won't impress those of us who have been involved in the sport long enough to have seen some terrible things happen, and yet the sport rolls on. sorry.

it all comes down to RIDER RESPONSIBILITY (or perhaps parental responsibility if we are talking about children), and it is the rider's responsibility to be hydrated enough, fit enough, dressed appropriately, etc.

I believe you are very misguided as to how responsibility and liability works, and even more misguided as to how organisations are required to manage risk.

Continuation without proper management or consideration of risks is not an option. If we followed your argument there would be no obligation for helmets, or protector - it would be the riders individual responsibility.

This is a very simple issue of looking at the risk, before it happens and thinking it through, before it manifests.

There is no need to dumb down the dress code. Just a pro-active one off decision by the organisers so everybody is clear, and then BE approved kit suitable for the prevailing weather. Its done in other countries so why not in the UK -what's so special about the UK ?

I have been in this sport and jumping for a along time, just not in the UK , but as a newcomer to the UK scene I find it is dominated by a rather stuffy and traditional bunch that are living in another century, many of whom think that the Uk is the best in the world and that nothing should change.

Get practical, get real. Equestrian sport in the UK is not the best in the world and it could learn a lot looking by looking at practices in the other countries.

 

[NR99]

B-B and rvb99 I have re-read the post and like AandK I still don't know what you are talking about.

No doubt B-B you will now say that I am un-educated or unqualified, you seem to attack others and say they are not this or that whilst neither yourself nor rvb99 have stated why you feel you are so much more 'qualified' than others on the subjects above.

I fear you had one tipple to many last night or you are deliberately trying to antagonise other forum members, whichever it is you have been quite rude IMHO.

Perhaps I am wrong and you can now correct me my by stating what your actual point is rather than 'read the text above' as the points in the text above seem to vary depending on who you are debating with.

 

[Lolo]

rvb99, it might not be the best but it's one of the best in the world (as proven over many years at various events...). The UK is special in that we usually have very low temps compared to others, and we have a system in place to deal with the high temperatures. Some riders will ride in jackets no matter what as they like them. That is their choice, and having suffered heat stroke, you can feel it coming and avert it! If you drink lots, stay cool inbetween bouts of work and do what you feel your body needs then you will be fine.

As this thread shows, 90% of people knew who to ask and if, like me, they didn't they would ask a steward who would know. They would then be allowed to remove their jacket. If they're a one man band as many are, they could even ask a steward to hold stuff for them so they can add and remove clothing as necessary- when I steward, I'm often seen holding whips, boots bandages and coats for various riders as they complete their tests.

 

[B-B]

K If the poster is listed then you certainly have more to worry about than I do...and best to keep laughing.

NR99 I would say anyone us uneducated or unqualified...nowthat would be rude!

 

[B-B]

Sorry. NR99...joys of iphones...

I wouldnt say that of anyone. And havent.

 

[rvb99]

I do think it's odd a new member has arrived just in the knickers of time to agree with B-B... And slate BE on every other possible thread!

Then I guess you must be taking about me ;-) . I have been in equestrian sport for many years and have recently become acquainted with the Uk system.

Compared to other European countries these organisations are light years behind. Whilst it seems the UK has concentrated on horse welfare (perhaps for good reason) the rest of the world has moved on in terms of getting the sport profile raised, organisation, administration and governance.

In the UK these associations moan about lack of government grant, but they seem incapable of getting their act together. The Uk equestrian sport system compared to the continent is the different between the organisation of a school fete and that of a large corporation : it is quite simply amateurish.

This thread simply highlights the conservative culture of those involved , making the task of taking the sport forwards more difficult to achieve.

 

[kerilli]

K If the poster is listed then you certainly have more to worry about than I do...and best to keep laughing.

NR99 I would say anyone us uneducated or unqualified...nowthat would be rude!

Umm, and what exactly do I have to worry about? Seriously?
Since I always pay attention to my horse's turnout, any judge that does take that into consideration, even in the slightest degree, is not going to mark me down for being on a clean, plaited horse, while I have a jacket on even if it is sweltering...

 

[rvb99]

B-B and rvb99 I have re-read the post and like AandK I still don't know what you are talking about.

"
There is no need to dumb down the dress code. Just a pro-active one off decision by the organisers so everybody is clear, and then BE approved kit suitable for the prevailing weather. Its done in other countries so why not in the UK -what's so special about the UK ? "

 

[AandK]

On my phone so I can't quote but LEC - excellent post!!

Before we know it BE will be a mess of red tape and ridiculous rules governing health and safety. Or better still, they will ban it all together because it is far too risky.

I'm all for BE moving with the times but we have to keep in mind it is a sport with so much history and tradition, it would be such a shame to look back in 10 years time and see a sport I love barely recognisable.

You have to draw the line somewhere surely? Of course safety is important but not at the expense of the whole point of the sport - enjoyment!! Well, we're not in it for the money now are we....

 

[kerilli]

"
There is no need to dumb down the dress code. Just a pro-active one off decision by the organisers so everybody is clear, and then BE approved kit suitable for the prevailing weather. Its done in other countries so why not in the UK -what's so special about the UK ? "

First of all, we don't have the extremes of temperature that most other eventing countries do. we have a maritime climate (you can't be more than 80 miles from the sea, anywhere in the U.K.), whereas Europe, the U.S., Canada, Australia, all the other main eventing areas all have far more extreme climates. We just don't get that sort of humidity, those sorts of extremes of temperatures.
There is already a rule in place for "BE approved kit suitable for the prevailing weather"... i really honestly do not see what you are arguing for here! Stewards are approachable, riders can ask. If they've had the brains to get themselves and their horses there, then please trust that they have the brains, if they are too hot, to ask if they may remove their jackets...!

 

[Baggybreeches]

Rvb99 in view of the fact you keep referring to risk management, why would heat exhaustion of riders be a priority? If all of the risks associated with eventing ( either real or potential) were identified and ranked then I am pretty sure heat exhaustion to riders ( who are in the main part fit able bodied folk with a reasonable level of nutrition) would be right down the list next to meteor strike just before dinosaur attack at the water jump!
Very bizarre replies from yourself and B-B

 

[NR99]

"
There is no need to dumb down the dress code. Just a pro-active one off decision by the organisers so everybody is clear, and then BE approved kit suitable for the prevailing weather. Its done in other countries so why not in the UK -what's so special about the UK ? "

So all this and that's all you want?

Do you think stating that everyone here is living in the last century was necessary just for this point? Perhaps in France you do not value tradition, in the same way, here we do and as you can remove your jacket when hot I fail to see how it is detrimental to anyone. Afterall if you really object then just choose not to compete, it really is that simple?

I am afraid I do not think we are waiting for a heat exhaustion accident to change rules, if it really were a problem all manner of activities would need to be cancelled due to a bit of warm weather, athletics, school sports days etc etc I think you are worrying unneccessarily.

 

[rvb99]

I fear you had one tipple to many last night or you are deliberately trying to antagonise other forum members, whichever it is you have been quite rude IMHO.

IMHO I find this comment more patronising and rude than any of my postings.

personally I see this as healthy debate, between what I would call the traditionalists who do not see the reason to change and those that would like to move the sport forward.

 

[kerilli]

Very bizarre replies from yourself and B-B

i think they're just arguing for the sake of it, very odd. Not quite sure what the agenda is - perhaps that all riders in the U.K. are cretins, ditto judges, BE are useless, the U.K. is light years behind every other equestrian nation... hmmmm.

 

[AandK]

"
There is no need to dumb down the dress code. Just a pro-active one off decision by the organisers so everybody is clear, and then BE approved kit suitable for the prevailing weather. Its done in other countries so why not in the UK -what's so special about the UK ? "

Yes you have given this simple solution, but you still haven't explained why you are going on about health and safety and risk and liability management.
The approving of certain kit to wear in extreme weather is nothing to do with health and safetly, just comfort of the rider.. How can BE be liable if someone gets poorly because they rode in their jacket for 6 mins on a hot day?
And if BE don't follow your suggestion, I fail to see how an accident will occur.. Some people will get heatstroke/faint/go purple in hot weather regardless of what they are doing. Eventing / cycling / running / shopping / gardening, the list goes on..

 

[kerilli]

Some people will get heatstroke/faint/go purple in hot weather regardless of what they are doing. Eventing / cycling / running / shopping / gardening, the list goes on..

Exactly. The hottest day I've ever competed on (35 degrees, no breeze at all, not in the U.K. fwiw) all the riders were fine (we were forced to hydrate v regularly, with squash with a bit of salt in it, yeuk) but some of the grooms got heatstroke...