BE -Calling Dressage Stewards/Organizers !!!

this post is hysterical.
as i see it...its the rider's responsibility to know the rules- its not exactly hard is it to read the (free) rule book they send you when you join/buy day tickets or you can look at the downloadable rule book online or even post in the "askBE" section of the forum where they normally reply to any question very quickly- if i'm not sure about something i always ask there and they have been very helpful. I reckon that very few people will go BE without having done some unaffiliated (probably PC or RC) at some stage beforehand so will have a general gist of the rules anyway from that?

i know a lady who is doing a BE next month and she is adamant that her daughter can warm her horse up for her. have warned her that this is against the rules and she may get told off- up to her i guess if she can't be bothered to find out.

Re jackets- if its too hot then surely you would just ask?? or buy a lighter jacket for the summer months? i get very red in the face when i compete. not because i am unfit or massively overheating, i just get red in the face- always have done. TBH if i was competing and had some blathering at me to ask if i could take my jacket off i would probably be thinking "shut up...i will ask if i WANT to ask" :p

re. plaiting and turn out. sorry but i think its rude to the judge to not bother plaiting. no it shouldn't affect the mark they give but i bet with a lot (not all) it does make a difference if they are trying to decide between 2 marks- where there are no half marks they have to use something to decide up or down and overall picture WILL make a difference in a lot of cases.
 
NR99 said:
all manner of activities would need to be cancelled due to a bit of warm weather, athletics, school sports days etc etc I think you are worrying unneccessarily.
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I think if you go back to my first post, you will see clearly see that what maybe termed today as a "bit of hot weather" is going to become more of a problem. The weather is changing and summers are getting hotter. The number of days of mid 30sdeg is increasing. My issue is with this sport, not other sports, but we could expect other sports to start to change also.

The issue is simple , its about managing risk. Personally I do not find the BE implementation today very satisfactory, because I have experience of elsewhere where I believe it works much better. The proposed solution is simple.

I also have experience of where things seem to work better in a lot of other areas. Of course you can disagree and ridicule me, but perhaps , just perhaps a little more humility in recognising that dear Old Blighty does not know best in everything would help move the sport along.
 
Baggybreeches said:
Rvb99 in view of the fact you keep referring to risk management, why would heat exhaustion of riders be a priority?/QUOTE]

In risk management priority (or risk score) = possibility X impact. The probability in this case is related mainly to temperature and humidity. The impact could be quite serious, which makes the score potentially medium to high (certainly higher than the strange dinosaur example above). The question is whether you decide to put a system in place to manage the problem. This is fairly basic management practice that you would find in any large organisation - sporting or not.
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rvb99 said:
I think if you go back to my first post, you will see clearly see that what maybe termed today as a "bit of hot weather" is going to become more of a problem. The weather is changing and summers are getting hotter. The number of days of mid 30sdeg is increasing. My issue is with this sport, not other sports, but we could expect other sports to start to change also.

The issue is simple , its about managing risk. Personally I do not find the BE implementation today very satisfactory, because I have experience of elsewhere where I believe it works much better. The proposed solution is simple.

I also have experience of where things seem to work better in a lot of other areas. Of course you can disagree and ridicule me, but perhaps , just perhaps a little more humility in recognising that dear Old Blighty does not know best in everything would help move the sport along.
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I don't think I am ridiculing you, I feel you are over re-acting but I believe in freedom of speech and think you have every right to say as you feel. I do however find that despite your protestations that you are just offering healthy debate that comments like 'dear old blighty' are deliberately antagonistic but again that is your choice. If the French are so much better at removing their clothes in heat, why do you not see them without their jackets at their televised events?
 
NR99 said:
If the French are so much better at removing their clothes in heat, why do you not see them without their jackets at their televised events?
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Who exactly invented streaking? How dare you suggest the French are better than us Brits at removing their clothes :mad: :D ;)
Actually, come to think of it that was really dangerous - it was at a Rugby match - in winter :eek:. She might have got frostbite!
 
kerilli said:
diggerbez, the voice of reason. THANKYOU!!!
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Agree, other than when I judge I don't take turnout in to consideration at all - I'm far too focused on the manner of going & the test. I wouldn't mind betting that the vast majority of judges would say the same. Never once have I heard turnout even mentioned on any of the trianing days I've attended (other than the showing based ones).
 
Zebedee said:
Agree, other than when I judge I don't take turnout in to consideration at all - I'm far too focused on the manner of going & the test. I wouldn't mind betting that the vast majority of judges would say the same. Never once have I heard turnout even mentioned on any of the trianing days I've attended (other than the showing based ones).
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So, do you mean that you do take turnout into consideration when you're judging? ;) ;)

I don't think good turnout would be mentioned because it is assumed. I never had any of my trainers mention it, ever, it was taken as a given, they never told me to put a saddle and bridle on the horse either, or to remember to wear breeches. ;) ;)
 
I dressage judge , organise showsand also compete. When judging although a notice the turn out of the horse and rider, unless they are breaching the rules (ie no gloves etc) it does not affect the way I judge the horse whatsover. I am looking at the horses way of going and the riders influence on the horse. That is it.
I have, at the area festival, had a comment from a judge on my score sheet 'immaculatley turned out horse and rider', still, my wonderful efforts didn't dazzle the judges as I was 6th on 65% and not 1st on 90% due to my amazing turn out ability! If you want points for turn out then best to enter the tack and turn out classes!
Having said that, I have a sense of pride so I always present my horses plaited and well turned out ( looks good for the photos after all!)
When organising shows, if it is hot, I expect people to have some kind of common sense and ask whether they can remove jackets, I don't expect my stewards to wander round to each individual person to tell them that they can take their jackets off- this would be a logistical nightmare. I just make the secretary know, should anyone ask.
 
kerilli said:
So, do you mean that you do take turnout into consideration when you're judging? ;) ;)
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Haha - no! To clarify I mean that I agreed with Diggerbez with the exception of the remark re poor turnout costing marks !

I've actually be pleasantly surprised on more than one occassion when the quality of the work has far exceeded that of the turnout - conversly some very professional looking competitors have been most dissapointing !
 
"Tack up pony and go over to dressage warm up on unplaited pony with quarter marks no longer used but instead stable stains in artful ways. "

I actually think this is a good idea, mine is very artful with her stable and mud stains!!!!

When I have been competing on VERY hot days (There are not that many of them!) then the "news" that you can take your jacket off has spread pretty quickly. You can see the dressage arena's and people riding without a jacket and if with all of that you are not sure then just ask.

I have been tack checked at BE, I am amazed M_M has not been! I have no issue with someone having a quick check, I have nothing to hide!

I think most of us who event enjoy getting "dressed" up. For me it is all part of the day. I have to admit I do not always plait for small local dressage. My choice, I mean no disrespect to the judge, owning a grey though I would always bath and have a clean horse.

I know it is hard to start a new sport, I was lucky in that I "groomed" for a friend at some events before I started so I knew how things work. Perhaps for new comers, helping at a few events would assist before they start eventing themselves.

Finally I thought we all enjoyed horses and competing and came on here for friendly gossip, advice and support?
 
rvb99 said:
In risk management priority (or risk score) = possibility X impact. The probability in this case is related mainly to temperature and humidity. The impact could be quite serious, which makes the score potentially medium to high (certainly higher than the strange dinosaur example above). The question is whether you decide to put a system in place to manage the problem. This is fairly basic management practice that you would find in any large organisation - sporting or not.
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I am no statisic genius but you also need to factor in weather conditions surely? Which in this country (based on previously recorded temperatures) would make this a low risk?
Essentially you would need (a) high temperature x (b) unsuitable clothing x (c) susceptible person x (d) probability,as most people react differently to high temperatures ( I personally dislike the very warm weather, but I manage to function normally as long as I eat and drink).
And although I am not a statistics genius I do work in a H&S and risk assessment based service, so I do have a decent enough understanding of risk assessments/duty of care related regulations and guidelines.
 
Princecharming said:
I'd be embarrassed to do any dressage test without plaits in. I tend to pull my plaits out for x country if I have time (I have no groom) I also don't really see how doing a dressage test in a jacket and thin shirt is any cooler than doing x country in a body protector, and the riders seem to manage that ok without moaning and fainting.
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I'm happy to put up with the heat from a BP, since that could save my life. It has a purpose. A show jacket IMO does not. Its just there to look traditional.
 
NR99 said:
If the French are so much better at removing their clothes in heat, why do you not see them without their jackets at their televised events?
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I am not sure to which events you are referring to. I am assuming it is some international competition. What were the weather conditions ? As I have remarked earlier, you can not make a direct comparison with professional sports people and amateurs that make up the majority of BE.
 
MagicMelon said:
I'm happy to put up with the heat from a BP, since that could save my life. It has a purpose. A show jacket IMO does not. Its just there to look traditional.
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I agree.

As I was trying to say last night before my computer crashed and lost everything - grrr - I've asked at least twice at BSJA's shows to have my back protector on and no jacket, due to the heat, and have been refused.

Needless to say I don't ask anymore & suffer in silence.

Also, with the comments that its only 6 minutes, thats not always the case. If you don't have a helper to bring and hold your jacket, its usually a necessity to wear the jacket whilst working in.
 
dixie said:
Also, with the comments that its only 6 minutes, thats not always the case. If you don't have a helper to bring and hold your jacket, its usually a necessity to wear the jacket whilst working in.
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nope, i disagree. i warm up in a cut-off short sleeved shirt, as cool as possible. if i'm alone i carry it and my number, and leave them near the steward, who i ask very nicely to remove horse's boots and to hand me them about 5 mins before my test. i have never been refused and only ever had 1 steward (at ALW) get stroppy about it.

rvb99, re: "you can not make a direct comparison with professional sports people and amateurs that make up the majority of BE."
why not? honestly? the conditions are the same for all.
 
charlie76 said:
I don't expect my stewards to wander round to each individual person to tell them that they can take their jackets off- this would be a logistical nightmare. I just make the secretary know, should anyone ask.
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This is not what I proposed. A simple central announcement is all that I suggested.

e.g in summer : in hot humid conditions. Stewards and organisers decide alternative summer attire is possible. Announcement is made. Riders decide whether they wish to change, dress code is maintained by using BE approved gear (probably smarter and more consistent than today !) , Everybody is aware and BE and organisers have managed the potential risk - job done !

I see this as a relatively small practical improvement to the current process, so I am having some difficulty in understanding the issues in implementation.
It certainly seems simpler than the current system of each individual rider having to ask the stewards, and then having people riding around in various "non smart" or inconsistent dress.
 
kerilli said:
rvb99, re: "you can not make a direct comparison with professional sports people and amateurs that make up the majority of BE."
why not? honestly? the conditions are the same for all.
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- different physical condition between professionals and amateurs. This is the same for all sports, including equestrian.

- age, where in particular younger people with lower body weights will succumb to the effects of heat faster. Could also apply to older riders.
 
rvb99 said:
As I have remarked earlier, you can not make a direct comparison with professional sports people and amateurs that make up the majority of BE.
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I'm sorry but I disagree, if it is the H&S risk that you state then why would you ignore the dangers for professionals?
 
rvb99 said:
This is not what I proposed. A simple central announcement is all that I suggested.

e.g in summer : in hot humid conditions. Stewards and organisers decide alternative summer attire is possible. Announcement is made. Riders decide whether they wish to change, dress code is maintained by using BE approved gear (probably smarter and more consistent than today !) , Everybody is aware and BE and organisers have managed the potential risk - job done !

I see this as a relatively small practical improvement to the current process, so I am having some difficulty in understanding the issues in implementation.
It certainly seems simpler than the current system of each individual rider having to ask the stewards, and then having people riding around in various "non smart" or inconsistent dress.
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Erm, how many horse trials have you been to in the U.K. in hot weather? Because that isn't what happens...
ime, once one person is seen to be a test without a jacket, word spreads very quickly and lots more people ride in shirt-sleeves if they want to... they don't all go and check with their steward.
An announcement is often made over the tannoy, about shirt-sleeve order in the SJ as well as the dressage. it might always be made, i don't know, i haven't always heard it but that doesn't mean it hasn't happened...
as for "BE approved gear", any plain shirt with sleeves is allowed afaik. do you want us all in uniform? i think riders would fight that, if only because of the additional cost!
 
rvb99 said:
- different physical condition between professionals and amateurs. This is the same for all sports, including equestrian.

- age, where in particular younger people with lower body weights will succumb to the effects of heat faster. Could also apply to older riders.
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Erm, but in equestrianism, uniquely, the horse is, indisputably, doing most of the work. as long as the rider is fit ENOUGH (and that is not easy to measure), i don't see the problem. an amateur might be fit enough to ride 1 horse round a novice, the Pro to ride 6 horses round in 1 day...

so, your last comment applies to younger people and older people. or maybe the ones in the middle who are overweight, or really unfit. so, quite a big percentage of riders. ;) ;)

yet again, it comes back to RIDER RESPONSIBILITY. i don't want to be nannied by BE, the onus is on me to be fit enough, have my horse fit enough, be competent enough, hydrated enough, etc etc.
 
kerilli said:
rvb99, re: "you can not make a direct comparison with professional sports people and amateurs that make up the majority of BE."
why not? honestly? the conditions are the same for all.
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Yes I agree with this point.
Please see the C&P info from the BE website:
What makes Eventing so different...?

• One of only a few sports in the world where men and women compete on equal terms

• One of only three sports where men and women compete on equal terms at the Olympics (sailing & mixed badminton)

• The genuine amateur can compete against World and Olympic Champions

• It’s a sport that Britain enjoys success in– Over 200 Championship medals in 88 years of competition

• Highest ABC1 demographic profile participation sport in Britain

• All round test of horsemanship

• Opportunities for all ages and abilities – appeals to the young and old alike


I used to event I now Point to point, do I expect them to make allowances for the fact I am too fat, not fit enough or not remotely interested in having the right equipment? No. I choose to participate and by paying my entry fee I agree to be bound by rules and guidelines. There are people like me who work their backsides off literally to make sure I am as good as I can be, I am not a professional but I do have high standards and if that makes me old fashioned then I am sorry I would rather be old fashioned than slovenly and make excuses for lack of effort, whether that be on turnout, or performance.
 
I don't really see the problem....if you are too hot, ask if you can remove your jacket. They will either say yes or no. You then either take your jacket off, or continue to suffer in view of 'traditional dress'.

What's the problem?

What I DO see as a problem, is people thinking it's acceptable for the judge to be swayed as to how smart you are, if you have plaited or in uniform dress. The horse should be judged on the scales of training ONLY, and any judge that gets swayed by how smart the combination are, whether they know said rider, how pretty the horse is etc etc etc should NOT be allowed to judge!!
 
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