BE -Calling Dressage Stewards/Organizers !!!

B-B said:
Judges dont have time....you only have time to quickly write your collectives, summarize and the other horse is already in....

Judges do comment on the cause in relation to the scales. To ist all you see would be very negative.

Same for the collectives.
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Gosh, I never realized that the next horse came in straight away. You learn something every day!!!!!

You shouldn't comment on the cause, just on what happened. It's not negative to say "more bend" or "quarters in" or "more from behind" etc.

Equally in the collectives "needs to work more from behind to a steady contact" or "needs to develop more suppleness" or "inclined to lose balance and go against hand" etc. are not negative comments.
 
B-B said:
Judges dont have time....you only have time to quickly write your collectives, summarize and the other horse is already in....

Judges do comment on the cause in relation to the scales. To ist all you see would be very negative.

Same for the collectives.

Sorry if my confidence in what I do disturbs. Perhaps you would prefer to be judged by judges who are a bit wishy washy and swayed by smiles.
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Good ones do!
Mark, comment, analyse next movement, mark, comment, ditto. easy to write for, lots of time, even time for sotto voce comments here and there.
totting up quickly, keeping a running total throughout on their sheet, with collectives given written down, so they have a list of their top few and carefully slot new good ones in, in the right place.
sorry if my absolute belief in what top judges manage to do, having sat and seen and heard it with my own eyes, disturbs you... i promise you, these superhuman judges really honestly do manage to do all that!
trust me, you'd never see a less wishy-washy judge than the one I'm talking about. nobody gets to judge at 4* nowadays if they are 'swayed by smiles' imho... well, okay, there's one i'd personally rate as 'not all that', but that's just mho, and obv not sour grapes either!
oh dear, hold on... is that you?! ;) ;)
are you a Listed judge, and if so, what List please... I do love to know the calibre of people I am 'talking' to.
 
B-B said:
Sorry if my confidence in what I do disturbs. Perhaps you would prefer to be judged by judges who are a bit wishy washy and swayed by smiles.
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B-B, I'm not disturbed but intrigued. If you are confident in what you do why not state it, firstly you indicate you have written for many, but the above implies you judge yourself - I realise it could be both. If this is the case why not say so?

Kerilli has already declared herself as an enthusiastic rider and scribe rather than a judge, so why don't you do the same? If you are as confident in yourself as you feel you should be, would this not only add weight to your argument?
 
oldvic said:
Gosh, I never realized that the next horse came in straight away. You learn something every day!!!!!

You shouldn't comment on the cause, just on what happened. It's not negative to say "more bend" or "quarters in" or "more from behind" etc.

Equally in the collectives "needs to work more from behind to a steady contact" or "needs to develop more suppleness" or "inclined to lose balance and go against hand" etc. are not negative comments.
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And now sarcasm (sigh)

So there is not time to sit and look through the marks to work out who should and shouldnt win..especially when you have between 35-39 horses.

To make reference to the scales it would be more suppleness and not straight. If you say more bend riders might then turn them by the rein more. Quarters in might encourage riders to over correct by pushing the quarters out. Reference should be made to the scales in the comments so needing more suppleness and straightness would be better.

More what from behind...what does that tell the rider? More energy, more jump (canter)....

Losing balance is another one...did the horse fall over? Horses are on the shoulder to one degree or another so you could say it has downhill balance, needing better balance or needing more uphill (the positive) balance.
 
NR99 said:
B-B, I'm not disturbed but intrigued. If you are confident in what you do why not state it, firstly you indicate you have written for many, but the above implies you judge yourself - I realise it could be both. If this is the case why not say so?

Kerilli has already declared herself as an enthusiastic rider and scribe rather than a judge, so why don't you do the same? If you are as confident in yourself as you feel you should be, would this not only add weight to your argument?
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Not sure what it is you want said?
 
B-B said:
Not sure what it is you want said?
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you could answer the question I asked in my previous two posts.... ;) ;)


B-B said:
So there is not time to sit and look through the marks to work out who should and shouldnt win..especially when you have between 35-39 horses.
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Right, this is what this judge did:
after every test, quickly tot up total, write it down, with collectives, on his own sheet. so, say, 115, 6, 7, 7, 6. if it was 1 of the best ones, quick aide memoire 'big chestnut with socks', that sort of thing.
other good tests, compare them to that total, so, say, 117... 'umm, yes, it was better, okay, 6, 7, 7, 7'. 'cresty black'
'115, umm, not quite as good overall as the chestnut, okay, 6, 6, 6, 6. little bay.'
i'm paraphrasing... this was years ago, and those weren't his words, but that was the gist of what he did.
does that make sense.
there IS time, i've seen it done, repeatedly, without hassle. it took a minute or so per horse, done when he was writing his comments.
 
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218 posts later.

FGS

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or just talking out of your arse?
 
LEC said:
218 posts later.

FGS

Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge?

or just talking out of your arse?
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Based on what has been posted so far I'm going for option B :D:D:D
 
B-B said:
And now sarcasm (sigh)

So there is not time to sit and look through the marks to work out who should and shouldnt win..especially when you have between 35-39 horses.

To make reference to the scales it would be more suppleness and not straight. If you say more bend riders might then turn them by the rein more. Quarters in might encourage riders to over correct by pushing the quarters out. Reference should be made to the scales in the comments so needing more suppleness and straightness would be better.

More what from behind...what does that tell the rider? More energy, more jump (canter)....

Losing balance is another one...did the horse fall over? Horses are on the shoulder to one degree or another so you could say it has downhill balance, needing better balance or needing more uphill (the positive) balance.
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At intermediate and advanced level it is normally 40 - 45 horses and 55 a day in FEI.

Not straight is negative and you told me not to be negative. What's not straight? Quarters in tells the rider what has happened. If they know about the scales they will know that to straighten you put the shoulder in front of the quarters. If not they may well push the quarters out anyway.

To get more of anything from behind requires more energy so that answers the question. A canter lacking jump will lack energy.

Any being can lose balance without falling over. A horse can have momentary losses of balance without being in a downhill balance. Therefore needing more uphill balance is different. I can't see much difference between needing better balance and inclined to lose balance other than the latter gives credit for where the horse is in balance.

All judges have their way of saying things which is healthy as the same thing said in different ways gets through to the rider. You will find that on different judge training sessions, especially at the lower levels, you are told that you can or can't say this or that depending on who is taking it. There was a time when the expression "uphill" came in that some people said it was not a good thing to write as riders wouldn't understand it!!!!

As you won't admit to being on a list I suspect you are a trainee judge - nothing wrong with that. You appear to be clinging to what you have been told. In time you will relax and become more original in what you say and how you express yourself. After 30 odd years you may even have time to know which tests are worth 65% and which are worth 70%!!!!!
 
siennamum said:
I think rules regarding turnout should be far more relaxed. I have ridden in really hot weather in a jacket and without a jacket at BE. It's not just a matter of only having the jacket on for 6 minutes. You have to take on and off number bib - which may not go over hat, & it's not safe to take jacket off whilst on board. So you have to get off, and it's just a faff tbh.

I also cannot afford these fabulous modern fabrics which people are talking about and only have a heavy wool hacking jacket, so being able to warm up and ride without it is a godsend.

I cannot for the life of me see what protection a layer of thin cotton will provide to your arms either, so have always been flummoxed by the long sleeves thing.

Bring on the day we can have dark johds I say!!
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Agree, agree and agree. :)
 
diggerbez said:
re. plaiting and turn out. sorry but i think its rude to the judge to not bother plaiting.
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So why is it not rude to the SJing and XC fence judges when competitors UNPLAIT before the jumping phases? Why is the dressage judge so special??

Does this not look even 'ruder' than the the people who didn't plait in the first place?
 
Yes I was a trainee many years ago and havent lost sight of the fact that beginners dont understand and how comments can have the wrong effect. Talking avrage sizes of class and I now judge the different levels. Do I thoughy it so obvious I didnt need to answer.

No one else feels the need to identify themselves?

Yes I am listed.....does that make a difference?

Is that proof?

Do you now demand my list or wil try to goad me into stating it?

Is that proof or do you now want my name?

Are you posting yours?

Do now what do you know? No more than before really.
 
B-B said:
Does typing that im listed really make that much difference to anybody?

Sad realy
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Well, I asked which List actually, because, as I said up there somewhere, it's nice to know the calibre of people we're talking to on here. most of us have posted many hundreds or even thousands of times so other users get a good picture, based on the content of those posts, of what people have done, how much experience they have (or not!) etc.
I have a lot more respect for the opinions of a List 1 or 2 judge than I do for a List 6 judge... ;) ;)
i don't ask for names, although many HHOers know who i am in real life because i had the names of my best event horses on my siggy banner with their comp photos for a few years (until i was told the banner was too big), so a quick cross-check on BE showed who i am (just a nobody who loves the sport, don't worry!) but anonymity is kept for everyone who wants it.

Can I just say that if, when judging, you don't do as I described above, and keep diligent track of %ages and your top few, if you just 'judge what's in front of you' per movement, does that mean that sometimes you get a bit of a shock at the scoreboard later when you realise that the one that wasn't quite as nice overall actually finished a mark ahead of another one, or won just on collectives overall? just wondered...
 
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What is the matter with doing a test in a jacket - the rider will only be in it for at the most 10mins.

In my time in the ring no one would even dream of asking to remove their jacket - correct turnout is etiquette.

JAcket can come off once you're out of the ring.

SAdly times are seriously changing and the etiquette is going out of riding. Really sad. I hate seeing bling on dressage horses too - its very distracting.
 
kerilli said:
Erm, how many horse trials have you been to in the U.K. in hot weather? Because that isn't what happens...
ime, once one person is seen to be a test without a jacket, word spreads very quickly and lots more people ride in shirt-sleeves if they want to... they don't all go and check with their steward.
An announcement is often made over the tannoy, about shirt-sleeve order in the SJ as well as the dressage. it might always be made, i don't know, i haven't always heard it but that doesn't mean it hasn't happened...
as for "BE approved gear", any plain shirt with sleeves is allowed afaik. do you want us all in uniform? i think riders would fight that, if only because of the additional cost!
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@kerilli
I have seen in some clothing company publicity that one of your personal goals is to improve safety ?

The standard way to do this in any organisation is to have mature management process that considers the various risks, weighs up the different elements and if necessary implements plans.

This result may be to simply do nothing or implement something. The point is that the issue is raised, managed and registered, rather than swept under the carpet. Moreover, such risks are reviewed regularly and kept up to date. This is an issue that would perhaps be reviewed during a particularly spell of hot weather.

The fact that many senior members on this forum discredit even the ideas, and at the same time purport to show concern over safety is, in my view, quite baffling.

Accidents seldom occur due to a single point of failure, they are usually the result of a chain of events. The role of risk management is not to necessarily reduce every risk, but to make sure that you know and manage the risk. Heat on rider could be a problem, heat on a rider that in turn causes a mistake on course could be more serious. Is word and mouth the best way to pass a message that could impact a link of a chain? Perhaps it is, but the whole overall approach needs to be thought through.

Another fundamental aspect of risk and safety management is that anybody associated with the organisation and business needs to be able to provide feedback and input, which is in turn properly analysed. Even the most weird suggestions may turn out to be relevant, when considered in the overall safety context.

It goes back to an earlier posting in which I said that I find the overall management approach quite immature, particularly for such a high risk activity.

Finally safety is as much an issue of culture as it is of system. If this sport is serious about reducing accidents, then it must improve both its system of risk and safety management, its awareness of what it means, and a real willingness to take on board input from all quarters.

BTW - I work in aviation safety ; but I am fully ready for the barrage of sarcastic remarks that this is likely to generate from other participants of this forum/thread.:cool:
 
rvb99, yes, you're right, it is, and i concentrate my efforts primarily on safety of the horse (warning people about ways horses have managed to injure themselves - see post in CR yesterday mentioning width gap between bars in grille of internal stables, or post last week about horse managing to jam itself under partition in my lorry, etc), and xc safety (articles on EWW etc.)
most eventing people, both riders and officials, when thinking of safety concerns, concentrate on the xc. one is very very unlikely to manage to kill oneself while doing a dressage test, so i'm happy to leave it to people to swelter if they are too daft to have the correct (lightweight but smart) clothing, or to have the nous to ask an official if they can remove their jacket.
if they aren't fit/hydrated/capable enough to ride a dressage test without getting heat stroke, they aren't going to cope xc with a body protector on (they all insulate, far more than a jacket!) so maybe it is a good way to weed them out before letting them and their poor unsuspecting horse gallop towards fixed fences...
i am sorry if that is horribly simplistic, but it's how i look at it.

btw, the picture in my siggy... it was over 30 degrees that day, and everyone wore jackets, and then 35 degrees with no breeze on xc day... and only a few grooms got heatstroke. no riders.
 
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Well put Kerilli, this I believe is what you have said since you first posted on this thread, and 99% of replies have agreed with you.

Can we now let this drop and all get on with our lives !!!
 
siennamum - Totally agree.

I dont see why its "rude" to not plait for dressage. WHY?! I've made the effort to wash my (grey) horse for you, travelled miles to the event, spent a fortune to be there - yet its rude to not swirl my horses mane into little balls?! Good grief. I also dont get the whole long sleeve thing for XC. I wear long sleeves, but simply roll them up (like many others) thus totally pointless. A thin bit of material will do absolutely ziltch.

Our sport will remain back in the dark ages if this mentality continues.
 
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MagicMelon, i think long sleeves xc will do a bit of protecting, actually. i always wear a rugby jersey (ancient, but still reasonably thick material) and only ever shove up to below my elbows. i'd rather that gets scuffed/shredded than my skin, if it comes to it... grazes HURT, and i'm a wimp! ;) ;)
i'm a stickler about plaiting, it looks so much nicer and really shows the neck off, and only takes 10-20 mins fgs.

mm, you're right, no such thing as seniority on here imho. all experience is valid, i don't care if someone's 19 or 99.

susie, yes, you're right!
 
OneInAMillion said:
Are you ready to be jumped on for saying that?! ;) fwiw I couldn't agree with you more!
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well, i know for a fact that we lost a really good poster because of just that, which is a real shame imho. she's had lots of ace instruction and rides absolutely beautifully, and had a lot to impart... we need people like that. must admit i never saw a thread where anyone said anything about her age, but apparently they did. :( :( :(
 
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