Beaters and shooters practically trying to kill us?!

[tashcat]

A friend and I were riding up a hill today - a common route to ride - when we encountered a line of people with yellow flags in hand, in a field next to the road - there are small thin shrubs between the road and field.

We didn't think anything of it until we were nearly past them - when the person nearest us started to wave his flag furiously. My unsuspecting horse shot about 5 feet in the air, and spun around in fright (he's a nervous chap anyway, but I don't blame him for being scared by something sudden and yellow flapping at him less than a few meters away!). In his panic we shot sideways into the friend's horse, who was also rather unsettled by the flag monster.

Then as they collided, guns started going off VERY close to us. The horses lost it, mine trying to run for the hills, slipping onto his knees and spinning about whilst my friends also spinning, rearing and desperately trying to escape, loosing his feet under himself. For one scary moment I thought they were going to go over backwards and down the hill! The road was wet, we were on a steep hill, and we were VERY lucky to still be seated by the end of it. Everything happened quickly, but the horses kept panicking - there was more than enough time for someone to notice and stop. Yet the guns and flags didn't cease, even when a few people were running out of nearby houses to make we were okay after hearing the commotion.

The rest of the ride was a nightmare as the poor horses jumped a mile in the air every time so much as a tree creaked! My friends horse kept throwing in rears and spinning every time big lorries came, or we heard distant gunshot. Normally he's well behaved but he kept loosing himself in a flail of feet. Eventually we swapped horses as he was being silly, but I couldn't get too angry as the initial shock was still there.

So rather than just ranting about it (tea and biscuits for all those who've got this far!) what can I do about it? These people were shooting SO close to the road - horses, children, cyclists, cars etc are just metres away. There is no warning when shooting is going to happen so we have no idea when to avoid the area (although it irks me that we would have to be the ones to avoid the area even though the shooters are the cause of the problem). They knew we were there as we'd called out greetings to them as we passed some before they started - and I even asked one if it was dog training (I know, I know stupid right but there were dogs and flags and I couldn't work it out!) but he just laughed and didn't warn us what they were planning on doing.
How can I let them know how dangerous their actions are? Can I report them?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Orca]

Shooters aren't allowed to shoot close to a public highway or to endanger or harm highway users. I would definitely report them! What an awful experience.

 

[Orangehorse]

BASC, the organisation that represents shooting interests, would take a very dim view of this, as they are constantly telling their members to take proper steps to get on well with the non-shooting public, but of course your shooters might not even be members (although I think that most shooters would be).

It should be fairly easy to find out which shoot it was, ask around, and then to contact the owner of the shoot. They should not have been shooting as you went past. They do have mobile phones, so someone could have telephoned the Shoot Master that there were horses approaching and they should delay the drive. They might not actually have broken any law, but it was a PR disaster. What a shame that your horses got so upset, I hope they can recover.

As for people who say that there horses are gun proof, well mine are pretty good, but I think in your circumstances ANY horse would have been upset.

 

[charterline]

Common ridinh route; does that mean a public bridle way, or private land that people ride across as and when they feel like it.

Therein lies a difference as to the action that can be taken.

You can shoot near a public highway, as long as you are not shooting over it; ie field with hedge borders road. Shooters stand with back to hedge, beater drive birds towards shooters, shooters are firing away from the road

 

[webble]

Common ridinh route; does that mean a public bridle way, or private land that people ride across as and when they feel like it.

Therein lies a difference as to the action that can be taken.

You can shoot near a public highway, as long as you are not shooting over it; ie field with hedge borders road. Shooters stand with back to hedge, beater drive birds towards shooters, shooters are firing away from the road

OP said they were on the road I took common to mean regularly used. If what you have said is true then that is a crazy and dangerous law

 

[Sukistokes2]

Our local shoot would never have done this, once when I inadvertently ( I usually try and avoid them) wandered to close to a stand, a man shouted and all the close shooters stopped straight away and I was able to get away quickly so they could continue. Those beaters should of held until you were passed. Recently on a ride I passed a country house where two young men were shooting at a target. They were several metres away from the road on private land. I had to do like an L shape around them. They continued shooting the whole time I wAs there. My calm cob started to get really upset, I shouted and waved for a break but they ignored me, when I hit the main village section, there were people there and cars. The road is very slippery and my horse was being a twit and nearly backed in to some walkers. The shooters carried on shooting. I got home in one piece but it was a close run thing. Knowing it was useless to speak to the family of the young man, they live mostly in London and come down for weekends to the " big house" I instead emailed the local PSO, who contacted me to say he had passed my complaint on to the firearm Division. They were going to be spoken too it seems, you are not allowed to use firearms if it endangers others and this includes horse riders. As I had asked for them to stop and they ignored me, they had endangered me, I could have pressed charges. I didn't I ask for them to be spoken to and reminded that their big weekend play ground is where others live.

I would follow up what happened to you with action. You could have been hurt, like those young men those people put their enjoyment in front of your safety.

 

[Gloi]

A very similar thing happened to us last month. The shooting started as we got close to them. The beaters were sending the birds flying across the road and the shooters were shooting them in the field at the other side, hopefully firing away from the road but all the birds were sailing over our heads. My friends horse was going spare,she was in a panic crying and I thought her horse was going to run through the barbed wire fence next to the road, even mine was upset and he's as bombproof as they come, and the worst thing was we'd passed a beater and to get away from the shooting we had to go back past him. He was right next to the road with his device making an awfully loud noise. I kept telling him to stop until we'd got the horses past him but he wouldn't take any notice.
They have been shooting in our area for years and they used to be really good and would stop and let us go past but in the past 3 years something has changed and now they are the most ignorant lot going.
I did ring the police but didn't get anywhere.

 

[Alec Swan]

How were those who were shooting supposed to be aware of you? If they could see you, then presumably you could see them. Why, if you knew that they were there did you continue on your path? Whilst all of us who use the countryside for any legitimate purpose have to consider other users, that works both ways, and next time you see beaters or others shooting, I'd suggest that you find another route. My OH rides out just about every day, we are surrounded (literally!) by those who shoot, and when it's obvious from the sounds of gunfire or the presence of beaters with flags, where a party of guns may be, she rides in another direction, it's simple common sense.

Reporting those who are shooting makes as much sense as reporting motorists who drive on a highway, both having as much right to be there as you, and possibly more so were you riding on private land.

I'm sorry if the above comments aren't exactly going with the flow, but there is another viewpoint. It may also be an idea for those who share their riding land with those who shoot, to seek out the shoot organiser and ask for a list of their shoot dates, and then avoid them, that's what we do.

Alec.

 

[Walrus]

We had an incident a couple of years ago riding down a bridleway, I could see the guns lined up right next to the bridleway, like you I was a bit oblivious as to what was going on. We were plastered in high viz so very noticeable. As we approached a couple of the guns closer to us lowered their guns and pointed at us but at that moment the beaters did whatever they do on the other side of the bridleway, drove the birds over the bridleway and most of the guns went for it (apart from the 2 guys who had pointed us out, they kept their guns down). I'm incredibly lucky that my pony danced on the spot and then just carried on with a bit of a jog whilst I tried to thank the guys who has kept their guns down. At the time I did nothing about it but in hindsight I wish I had as with different horses it would have been very different, plus shooting over a public bridleway in very naughty. Definitely try and persue it OP, even if just from the angle of education and awareness for people who share the countryside.

 

[Daisy99]

Alec, I usually agree with you but not in this case. The OP said she was not aware of what the beaters were doing and asked if it was dog training and he laughed at her!
Could he not of at least warned them what was about to happen?
I am shocked by this post and if any of the shoots around me (plenty of them) behaved in this manner I would be taking this further. Disgusting behaviour.

 

[pennyturner]

Typically, shoots fire away from the road (as they legally have to). That means that they stand as close to the road as the law allows (20ft, I think), firing away. The 'guns' have ear protectors on, and are facing away from you. That means that they are not in a position to see or hear you - even if your horse is going nuts.

There will be a spotter, in radio contact with the beaters. If he sees you coming, he'll hold off the beaters until you've passed, but if he didn't see you coming - and this has happened to us in the past, due to high hedges or whatever - once the beaters have started, he's watching the guns to make sure everything is safe in the line or fire, and will probably have ear defenders on himself.

We share the countryside. Lots of our most beautiful rides are preserved because of shooting revenue, and we should learn to live together.

Incidentally, a couple of years ago when this exact thing happened to us (a ride of children, youngest was 6), we went back to let them know we were OK, made it clear we didn't think they had done anything wrong, and came home with a brace of pheasants across the saddle!

 

[tashcat]

How were those who were shooting supposed to be aware of you? If they could see you, then presumably you could see them. Why, if you knew that they were there did you continue on your path? Whilst all of us who use the countryside for any legitimate purpose have to consider other users, that works both ways, and next time you see beaters or others shooting, I'd suggest that you find another route. My OH rides out just about every day, we are surrounded (literally!) by those who shoot, and when it's obvious from the sounds of gunfire or the presence of beaters with flags, where a party of guns may be, she rides in another direction, it's simple common sense.

Reporting those who are shooting makes as much sense as reporting motorists who drive on a highway, both having as much right to be there as you, and possibly more so were you riding on private land.

I'm sorry if the above comments aren't exactly going with the flow, but there is another viewpoint. It may also be an idea for those who share their riding land with those who shoot, to seek out the shoot organiser and ask for a list of their shoot dates, and then avoid them, that's what we do.

Alec.

Sorry but not sure you read my post correctly!!

It was a road, like an actual car driving road that we were on (sorry that bit was not clear) but it was a public highway, we had not once touched a bit of private land.

As I'd also said we had no idea what was happening: we saw people with flags and dogs, and I mentioned we called out to greet them, and I evenly naively asked one if they were dog training as they were in a grape vine field and I saw no guns. The laughed but gave no warning to us about what was to happen, or to his shooters that we were near. The usual beaters have bags and sticks in our area, so I didn't even put two and two together. I was too busy focusing on the ride to notice any shooters.

The shooting had not in any way started before we arrived: when we set off on our ride we heard guns in the opposite direction, and purposefully headed away from there!! So you can imagine how frightened the horses were when the guns started completely out of the blue as we were over half way up the road next to the field.

As a result we had no escape: going forwards or back would encounter more guns - but also turning around would have been far too dangerous for my horse: I would have lost him!

I appreciate your comments, but avoiding sadly was not an option. The shooting only started once we right next to the field. I think that is why I am so mad - they saw us and did absolutely nothing!

 

[tashcat]

Thank you all for your comments, they've been super helpful!

Thank you also for listening to my long rant!

I am definitely going to report this, and hopefully prevent it from happening again. Also going to try and warn as many horse riders as possible!

 

[Daisy99]

Glad you were all okay!

 

[HashRouge]

I suspect in your case OP the shooters may not have known you were there, but the beaters did so surely they should either have warned you or let the shooters know you were approaching (especially as you spoke to them!). It may simply be a lack of common sense on their part, but I'd think the best thing to do would be to try and find out who ran the shoot, explain to them what happened (stressing how there could have been a serious accident) and mention how easy it would have been to avoid. Then maybe they will speak to the beaters about how best to deal with approaching horses. I'm sure they must have a duty to ensure that their actions don't endanger passersby and it seems that the situation you describe could have been easily avoided. Personally, if I were shooting near a road, especially in a rural area where there were likely to be horses passing, I'd have someone stationed on the road either to warn riders or to delay the shoot while they passed. The countryside is for us to share, and among other things that means making sure that your actions aren't going to endanger others.

 

[maxedup2]

I had similar problems with a local shoot all winter last year ! A shoot negotiated shooting rights on the land of a farm next to my yard. I was effectively surrounded, with "drives" taking place north, south, east, & west of me all day long on shoot days. Over last Christmas, shooting took place every single day except Christmas Day!! It was like living in a War Zone !!!
The law is extremely generous to the shooters - they can even shoot within 15 feet of the centre of a road !!! Whilst they have guidelines issued by BASC which include issues like not endangering other countryside users, having marshals on public rights of way when conducting a shoot - as you have found out they are ineffective . In my case they point blank refused to put marshals on a well used bridle way when they were shooting right next to it. Their excuse - whilst there are BASC guidelines - they are not the law !!! I tried every option available - the BASC representative , the police , the local councillor, the environmental health officer ( who never actually turned up to any meetings) the county council responsible for rights of way - all either unco-operative or ineffective.
The long established mannerly shooting community abhor the behaviour of the new breed of shooters that are more interested in their "right" to do what they want regardless of the safety of others and the organisers are just interested in making money and at around £300 per gun per day it can be substantial.
I generally made such a nuisance of myself - got the issue in the local paper -pestered the police, (made sure I got a log number every time I reported it), got really good support from the local councillor even though he could only help by pestering too. Eventually got my neighbour to stop them using the field near the bridle path and next to my yard. They still shoot but not quite as close now !!

The law is out of date, it relied on participants being "gentlemen" - something the new breed of shooters don't understand !! Perhaps Horse & Hound could raise this issue publicly to get some support & campaign for more stringent laws rather than loose guidelines that are unenforceable, before someone is seriously hurt !!

 

[Alec Swan]

tashcat, sadly perhaps, not everyone who shoots has an understanding of horses and their general wish to put as much distance as they can between them, and what they fear! You and I know that, but expecting the rest of the world to understand our needs isn't really being realistic. It was indeed fortunate that no harm came to anyone, save perhaps a fright for you, and as you now have a better understanding, perhaps in future, either avoiding the situation or when it's obvious what's happening, putting distance between yourself and the problem would be the safest and the most sensible plan. I suspect that 'reporting' those who were probably acting within the Law will achieve nothing.

Alec.

 

[pennyturner]

As I'd also said we had no idea what was happening: we saw people with flags and dogs, and I mentioned we called out to greet them, and I evenly naively asked one if they were dog training as they were in a grape vine field and I saw no guns. The laughed but gave no warning to us about what was to happen, or to his shooters that we were near. The usual beaters have bags and sticks in our area, so I didn't even put two and two together. I was too busy focusing on the ride to notice any shooters.

OP - If you saw the shoot, and rode happily towards it, they would assume you were OK with it. Lots of us ride horses right past guns and crow scarers regularly. Having chatted to you they would assume you realised what was going on.

 

[Dry Rot]

On this one, I am piggy in the middle. In the country, we have to expect that the inhabitants will do country things -- which includes shooting.

I am not going to cite examples (and I could tell stories from both sides. I have a townie neighbour whose motto is "It's my land and I'll do what I want on it", including impromtu clay pigeons shoots just over the fence from my heavily pregnant mares).

But I will answer the question, What can we do about it? Anyone who has watched a cowboy film will have noticed how little their horses are upset by gunshots even close to their heads. The answer is to train them! I had a lady wanting to buy one of my ponies but she was worried because she lived on a shooting estate. How would the pony react to the shooters and guns being fired? As she did not want delivery for a couple of weeks, I suggested we discuss that problem later when she returned. She hesitantly agreed.

Every morning for the next couple of weeks, I would take the ponies a bowl of hard feed each. When they were far down the field, I'd fire a shot from a blank pistol which got their attention. I'd then give them their usual call. By the time the woman returned, I had all the ponies galloping up the field to the sound of the shot alone. Then, when their noses were in their feed bowls, I'd fire several more shots from my 12 bore shotgun. The ponies did not even lift their heads. The pony's new owner was suitably impressed.

My only disappointment is that I missed seeing the pony charging the Guns at her new home when a shot was fired! "Shooters mugged by gun loving pony" would have been a sight to see! Alec's post, as usual, is full of good sense. Much more sensible to avoid trouble when you can. If you can't, at least be prepred for it by some training in desensitisation. For exactly this reason, the cavalry used to fire a cannon at midday when the horses got their hard feed. It seemed to have worked at The Charge of the Light Brigade, though I suppose the cynical might say the horses simply bolted!

 

[charterline]

Agree with Alec, reporting them won't get you very far as legally they haven't done anything wrong.

Better course of action would be to find out who runs the shoot, and contact them, and explain in a sensible manner, what happened, ie the beaters walking towards you, and ask for them to brief the shoot in future to keep an eye out for horses, and stop if some are coming.

"Reporting" them is more than likely to rub them up the wrong way, and make it even less likely that they will help in future; the majority of people that I know that soley shoot cannot stand horse riders

 

[maxedup2]

Have tried talking reasonably to the "new breed" of shooters,. They just paid lip service to it. Tried to work with them to get a timetable off them so that I could avoid their "times" to turn my young horses out . Caught them "beating" on MY land -obviously without permission. I'm not against the traditional shooting community who conduct themselves with integrity, but there is a defiance amongst the nouveau shooters who are relying on the guidelines not being the law and flaunt it to the limit!!

 

[ester]

OP - If you saw the shoot, and rode happily towards it, they would assume you were OK with it. Lots of us ride horses right past guns and crow scarers regularly. Having chatted to you they would assume you realised what was going on.

Even if the OP had asked if they were dog training?

 

[Alec Swan]

Have tried talking reasonably to the "new breed" of shooters,. They just paid lip service to it. Tried to work with them to get a timetable off them so that I could avoid their "times" to turn my young horses out . Caught them "beating" on MY land -obviously without permission. I'm not against the traditional shooting community who conduct themselves with integrity, but there is a defiance amongst the nouveau shooters who are relying on the guidelines not being the law and flaunt it to the limit!!

There's some truth in this ^^^^. Sadly, most who shoot today haven't the faintest idea what they're doing or what a genuinely rural life is about. Oh yes, they've done a considerable amount of clay-shooting, they've become competent in that they can mostly hit what they're shooting at, but as for understanding the subtle nuances of what constitutes an acceptable level of conduct? Not a hope in hell!! The same can also be said for many who ride horses, sadly. How many who Hunt today are out for a freebie jolly and will gallop across a field of 'grass' to be met by an irate land owner with him explaining that it isn't 'grass' but costly drilled 'corn'.

Sharing our countryside isn't helped by those on either end of the spectrum who simply don't know how to behave, and probably have no wish to learn, and that as you point out, is where the problem lays, be we being carried along on four feet or two!

Alec.

 

[popsdosh]

Thank you all for your comments, they've been super helpful!

Thank you also for listening to my long rant!

I am definitely going to report this, and hopefully prevent it from happening again. Also going to try and warn as many horse riders as possible!

What are you going to report! A group of people doing nothing thats illegal! From what you have explained you are equally ignorant in this instance as it would have been just as easy for you to hold back until the drive was over it would have been 10-15 mins max. I am sorry but once a drive has started it is not easy to stop the birds flying . I ride and shoot so would not put my horse in that situation seeing them shooting. This is what I find remarkable about modern riders ,everybody is expected to change their lives to suit yours and that attitude and frankly your headline title does nothing but inflame peoples thoughts as it gives a totally false impression of what actually happened.
You make it sound like they were shooting at you which if they were would be something to complain about and I am sure was not the case. The law is very clear you only commit an offence if you discharge a weapon within 50 feet of the centre of a highway that causes actual damage to a person or their property so not just firing the weapon(I hope thats clear). However most shoots will not shoot across public highways for obvious reasons but legally they can

 

[HashRouge]

What are you going to report! A group of people doing nothing thats illegal! From what you have explained you are equally ignorant in this instance as it would have been just as easy for you to hold back until the drive was over it would have been 10-15 mins max. I am sorry but once a drive has started it is not easy to stop the birds flying . I ride and shoot so would not put my horse in that situation seeing them shooting. This is what I find remarkable about modern riders ,everybody is expected to change their lives to suit yours and that attitude and frankly your headline title does nothing but inflame peoples thoughts as it gives a totally false impression of what actually happened.
You make it sound like they were shooting at you which if they were would be something to complain about and I am sure was not the case. The law is very clear you only commit an offence if you discharge a weapon within 50 feet of the centre of a highway that causes actual damage to a person or their property so not just firing the weapon(I hope thats clear). However most shoots will not shoot across public highways for obvious reasons but legally they can

Hang on, no need to attack the OP! If you'd read the thread clearly she's already stated that she did not realise it was a shoot (and has explained why she didn't realise). She has also mentioned that she actually spoke to one of the beaters and asked if they were dog training. He did not explain to her what was going on.

 

[popsdosh]

Hang on, no need to attack the OP! If you'd read the thread clearly she's already stated that she did not realise it was a shoot (and has explained why she didn't realise). She has also mentioned that she actually spoke to one of the beaters and asked if they were dog training. He did not explain to her what was going on.

I wasnt attacking her ! merely pointing out that as much as she did not realise what was going on why should she expect the guns to have superior knowledge of a riders needs ,its a two way street.
Just to add tongue in cheek most of the beaters I have dealings with you would be lucky to get a grunt out of.
I am not belittling how the OP viewed things but there needs to be understanding on both sides. Neither party was doing anything they are not entitled too.

 

[popsdosh]

Perhaps changing the title to 'My horse tried to kill us!!!' might not inflame things so much on both sides.

 

[maxedup2]

I wasnt attacking her ! merely pointing out that as much as she did not realise what was going on why should she expect the guns to have superior knowledge of a riders needs ,its a two way street.
Just to add tongue in cheek most of the beaters I have dealings with you would be lucky to get a grunt out of.
I am not belittling how the OP viewed things but there needs to be understanding on both sides. Neither party was doing anything they are not entitled too.

May I suggest that if a person was stood with a yellow flag , it may have been their role to be a "marshal" - i.e. to warn passers by that a shoot was about to start . The fact that they just laughed at the question as to whether they were dog training merely illustrates the contempt & lack of consideration shown to other countryside users with absolutely no regard to the safety of others. If they could only "grunt" they shouldn't have been a marshal !

 

[popsdosh]

May I suggest that if a person was stood with a yellow flag , it may have been their role to be a "marshal" - i.e. to warn passers by that a shoot was about to start . The fact that they just laughed at the question as to whether they were dog training merely illustrates the contempt & lack of consideration shown to other countryside users with absolutely no regard to the safety of others. If they could only "grunt" they shouldn't have been a marshal !

It wont have been a marshal it will have been somebody flanking with a flag to turn birds towards the guns!!! Another assumption that is incorrect.
As I stated earlier I am involved on both sides and have no axe to grind but generally nowadays find people riding horses less inclined to want to compromise than some other parts of the rural community.

 

[ihatework]

It was bad form on 'the shoot' to start a drive in that situation.
The reality is the shooters weren't likely doing anything wrong and most likely didn't even know you were there.
On the shoot I take my dog out with the lead beater and the shoot owner have radios, they do a safety check before the drive starts. If there were horses/dog walkers visible the drive would be held until all clear.
There is always a risk mid drive that a horse isn't noticed, depends on the layout of the country, but even mid drive the lead beater would be radioed to halt and the guns stopped if it was noticed there were horses about.

In OPs circumstances that drive shouldn't have been started, there should have been some way for the beaters to communicate that horses were coming through.