Behavioural - Last chance for him, can HHO please help Prince?

Sorry didn't realise you were in south wales - your nearest RA is john jones
Area covered

Herefordshire, South Wales, West Midlands
Name

John Jones
Based in Craswall, Hereford
Contact Details

01981 510 269
john@horselistener.co.ukThis e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it
http://www.horselistener.co.uk/
Approximate Charges

Callout work: £200 (incl. travel up to 30 mile radius - 40p per mile thereafter) for 4 hours work with horse & owner plus phone/email back up for as long as needed. Loading: £250 (incl. travel as above). Training & livery: for youngsters, remedial and untouched horses £225 per week including a 1-1 lesson with horse and owner at the end of each week. Lessons at the yard £30.00per hour with your own horse or you can practice ground work with one of John's horses. Free advice by phone/email. Please call/email for any other details and info on clinics or check out the website.
 
I'm afraid as far as I can tell it just something that is going to time and patience. If it not physical then I think thats your only option. It sounds like this poor chap has been through the mill in his short life and needs to learn to trust again..

I had a 6yr old Dartmoor stallion with me for a year. He had been untouched, went through the sales and ended up with a less than sypmathetic farmer who had grappled and fought with him and shut him in a stable for a month just to get a headcollar on him.
Even after a year of daily attention I didn't completely gain his total trust but could do the basics with him..

I don't know what else to suggest I'm afraid apart from slow and steady... or rehoming
 
Mare mare has an extreme reaction to saddling/mounting/starting work. No-one knows why and she's been re-started countless times by countless people. During my ownership Jonathan Parrot got the furthest with her and before me a professional managed to showjump her. She is confirmed to have foot pain in both front feet - but of course not all horses react to foot pain by panicing, p!ssing off and throwing themselves about.

If you have done everything right and tried step by step proven methods of restarting and he's still reacting this way I doubt he's ever going to be a vaguely safe horse. If you find a real reason and take it away, eg broken saddle tree, sharp tooth etc, there's hope, otherwise IMO this horse is going to stay dangerous.

That doesn't mean no-one will ever get anywhere with him. He could find someone like Jonathan Parrot or the guy mentioned above, that can work wonders with horses that scare and baffle mere mortals, but when they go back to the mortals are they reformed characters? IME rarely.

If he goes to the sales he's more likely to find a skint but keen amateur and hurt them, and still end up in a tin.
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I was watching monty roberts working with a horse that did this the other day. He did 'join up' and then lunged with 2 lines, 1 behind the back legs in a dually halter and taught him to respect the pressure. It only took him 20 mins and then he had someone lean over 5/6 times, then lean over and sit on, then get on with stirrups ect.. Maybe something like that might work with him. There wouldn't be any signs of pain anyway because it is a fear of mounting in his head.
 
any chance you could get him in for the next monty demo?? it has to be worth a go if you could get him there, the next and last one is.. Sat 8 Nov / Sun 9 Nov– Myerscough, Lancashire

just out of intrest can he be ridden bare back?
 
There was also another Monty Roberts episode on last night with again a similar problem. This horse bolted if anyone tried to mount him and was afraid of the saddle. He did lots of ground work, join up etc, then had two riders come in with him and just walk up to the horse, stroke him and walk away again.

They then did this either side of him one in then out the other in and out etc etc over and over until the horse was really chilled. They then put a saddle on him (slowly and gently of course) and then finally put the dummy on its back. One of the ground riders noticed that when the dummy's "foot" hit the horse in a certain place he exploded. Monty felt that it was because he had been hit there in the past and remembered the pain.

Another person you could try is Sarah Fisher (wife of Giles on Buffy). She works in a very holistic way with horses and is based on Somerset though I am sure would travel.
http://www.tilleyfarm.co.uk/HorseInformation.html
Have not used her myself. I hope all goes well though. As everyone else has said already, time and patience are needed and getting his trust from the ground first.
Good luck
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Lucinda McAlpine is brilliant at working with this kind of horse. She has had many horses through her yard that were going to be shot if a solution wasn't found.
She isn't on any particular bandwagon of natural horsemanship. Just good common sense approach with a real flair for knowing just what is wrong/right.
www.lucindamcalpine.com
Give her a ring.
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Edited for my awful spelling - added some

I do not know all the history, but I can remember a little. I wouldn't say at all that his life is over, if he is a dream to handle, then there is so much hope. I think first (don't know whether you do already) I would go out and buy all of Richard Maxwell's books, I have read them and they are invaluable. I know natural horsemanship is not the most popular thing on here, but it is a very good starting point for alot of problem horses (infact I think all horses could do with it) Anyway - read these books, they wil help to no end. If anyone can afford to get him out, which would be better still, or at least work on the books format and save up to get him out - he will definitely help.

I think if you have said you have already started him again, I do not think this was done properly then (not in a bad way, I just mean I think you could of spent longer on the ground)
Not overly sure what he is scared off, the saddle or the rider.
If the saddle, go and get an old racing saddle which is smaller and lighter and then think about doing ground work which would incorporate that first - don't be in a rush to saddle him up and ride away, get pads on his back - a roller - anything you can make at home to resemble one. I think more trust and work needs to be done though before all of this. But this is not an impossible case - please defo think about Richard maxwell or at least buy/read the books they make alot of sense then situations like this cannot be resolved with tradtional horsemanship.

How is he with Rugs? Can he have other things on his back? Can he even have a saddle on his back for a short time. If not then as I said above work with the smallest lightest thing and then ''gradually'' over time build up to a full saddle - but long line him and build up from there in the method mentioned immediately above - whilst this is all happening though you can still be doing the groundwork which to start with is the most important thing to build up the trust and communication and take him work walks - loose jump over poles or whatever to keep him thinking and building up confidence in you.



Best of luck and keep us updated - ps I hope I have made sense here, apologies if I have not.x
 
I would imagine the cattle crush was originally used because at that stage the horse was getting hard to mount

Has anyone checked (prodded/pressed/felt) him around the girth area, both around his elbows at all places where the girth goes under his tummy? My Dad had an 'unrideable' horse years ago that turned out to have some sort of tumour under the skin under its tummy. When the girth was tightened it trapped a nerve sending the horse sub orbital. Once it was removed the horse gradually became OK to ride and ended up my dads favourite in the end!
 
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I cant be the only person in this world who has taken on such a huge problem without any answers?

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No you're not. A very good friend of mine has a 16hh ISH as a field ornament as he is the same, luckily she's in the position to be able to do so. He doesn't react quite so violently, but similarly. He used to be an excellent show jumper. She even had either Monty Roberts or Richard Maxwell (can't remember which one!) to him, didn't help
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If I were in this situation I would sell/loan him to an experienced person as a potential driving horse - if I were in the position myself I'd take him on and attempt to get him trained in driving - Welsh Ds are fab driving horses.

And hate to say it but if all else fails I'd rather PTS than put him through the sales
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How about the Natural Horsemanship people? Saw them at the Royal Show, they had a Welsh cob type youngster who had been severely traumatised by all sorts of things over a few years. The last straw for his current owner was when he was deliberately let out of the field with other horses and he took fright and galloped for miles, not being found until days later, by which time he was a physical and mental mess, unable to deal with anything.

They were so lovely with him, the whole team, spending time and being patient, desensitising him little by little. On day one at the first demo he was a nervous wreck, by day 4 he was allowing them to sit on him. Only problem is the cost I guess.

I wasn't a particular natural horsemanship fan, but I had taken my horse to see if they could help me load him away from home. I could see the daily improvement in this horse myself (and as a bonus they got my awkward chap to load all by himself! He still loads beautifully 5 months on, after years of planting at the bottom of the ramp at shows).

Would they pay and send him away?
 
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IMO it still sounds like a pain issue.

I think you need to try to establish what is hurting him. Is it the pressure on his back or is it the girth pressure. Have you tried 2 or 3 polypads under the saddle? I would try that first. Then a Korrector or similar.

You could also try a panel less saddle.
Sorry if you have already answered this but what is he like on bute?

What about acupuncture? Maybe there is a nerve problem?

I would also consider driving him if he is good in traffic.

Also, my mare has had saddle issues and Sacroiliac strain was diagnosed. It cant be identified by xrays. She had to have scintigraphy scans. She is now in a Wow saddle and it makes a lot of difference. She can't stand saddles with panels.
Have you tried a saddle with flair?
Just thinking of other options!
 
Thanks everyone, your replies, experiences and links are all very useful.

We have had him examined thoroughly, especially around the girth area which seems to be the problem. As soon as he is gently girthed he bronks wildly in the stable and has cut himself bouncing off the walls. We have tried with rollers, different saddles, flair, single pannel, gel pads etc.

We continued his education very gently and slowly, treating him like a complete baby, step by step and in his own time. When the EDT identified a problem with his teeth we had to stop until the work was done. We are now back at the beginning.

His owner (in Beds) and her sister (Cheryl) are not in a position financially to pay megga bucks to get him sorted. I already have 6 horses of my own and, as much as I want to say that I will take him on, in reality that isnt fair on my others or my husbands wallet.

The driving theory is an excellent idea. Bute is also worth another go, will start him tonight on that. Scintigraphy has been suggested by the vets but I dont think the owner wants to continue, even though he is insured. His owner wont pay out and his carer cant pay out which is why, in desperation Im turning to you guys to help me fix it.

I can also confirm that Prince was re-started correctly by someone who I trust completely. Every action towards Prince has been with his future in mind and he has not been handled by a numpty since he was put in a cattle crush which tipped over.
 
The only problem with driving is that he will still have to have a roller and girth/belly band done up, and if he is inclined to panic at all, then he is probably not going to be safe in a cart either. I am only a novice driver (broke daughter's outgrown pony in to drive with help from neighbour) but I would rather be on top of a horse that panics than in a cart behind it!

Not trying to be contrary, just practical on the driving front. Maybe someone more experienced will have an idea. Let me know if he does end up going to auction, as I am in Herts. Might be able to persuade a friend to buy him (a long shot).
 
driving still means a girth on, so may not work, sounds to me as if its an associated memory... girths wrenched up, bad things happen, i dont think he needs re starting, just needs to get through the girth stage, (if he doesntt errupt if a rider is on) other option, could it be pain around the withers.. as a girth being tightened will pull the saddle down, a pain full saddle combined with a bad past.. could be worth trying a bareback pad??

poor boy though,
 
I have not read all the replies yet but i am having similar troible with my 5yo

Difference with him is he has never been broken. I got him just over a year as as pretty well unhandled. Spent montsh and months and montsh quietly working with him and in most ways he is really good now. BUT we cant get him backed. he never really accepted a roller and was better straight to saddle, but each time the grith went up a hole he would egt upset but if i did one hole, little walk roudna dn rest then anoetrb hole he was better.

However we have not magaed to get a rider on baord, had got to lean over saddle stange up if you touched off side while leaning over he would flip out. We ahev never managed to progress from that. he will lunge happily with stirrups downa dn even scarey stuff attached to stirrups but leaning over is a no go.

We did make soem progress to teh point eh wodul allow my friend to sit on bareback. We built this up over abotu 6 weeks, statiung with her just lying over and very very slowly climbing her way up. got to the stage I wcoudl leg erh up and go for a very tiny walk round yard. Then went to the saddle and legged her up to lay over and he was very tence, then she came to slip off (like normal) and we got an even bigger explosion that before.

So I called a halt to bareback as if he had reacted in that way bareback she would get hurt.

Now he has had a break and he has come back quite a few stages. back to not being happy with girth. I can plonk saddle on with very little reaction but go to do girth up and he is unhappy. My friend now has him on loan and has coem back to saddling etc in the school and there is a little improvement again but he is still unhappy about the girth.

It does seem to be a girth problem, and we are now trying a wintec elastic girth with prolite girth sleeve.

He has been checked out of course, pyshio cames twice and said there is no pain anywhere and that he is in very good shape and his back is more supple etc than most horses. Even had an animal communicator to talk to him who siad no pain etc.
 
We had a horse in our yard similar to this and he had cracked ribs!!

I know you said the horse has been x rayed but you said spine so I was wondering if it could be his ribs, doesn't necessarily have to be in his girth area, may be firther back!!

Worth exploring, I'm sure.

Good luck with the wee man.
 
Shanna - I cant reply to your fantastic PM, it says that it will not allow me to proceed for some reason.

Your PM is very interesting and I would love to discuss it with you.

Hx
 
The mounting problems must go back further than the cattle crush incident; that is probably why they used it. I am sure horses have suffered worse than that. It does seem you have tried everything. Could he have been mounted heavily as a youngster, resulting in slight spinal damage that doesn't show on an x-ray? My fear is that if someone experienced does sort him out, he could still remain dangerous to saddle and/or ride in the hands of someone else. Whereabouts in Bedfordshire is he going? You can PM me if you like. Sadly, whether the issues are physical or psychological, there may be no happy outcome to this one.
 
is it all being taken too fast? With the goal being a saddle and everything pressurised towards that? He maybe needs time off to chill.
can you put a surcingle over the rug? Then a pad under it?
Can he be ridden bareback at all?
 
Hi Soots. I tend to agree with you that this may not be a happy outcome unfortunately. However, I feel I owe this poor lad every opportunity to put him right.

I do know that when he was broken, he was hacking out quietly. I also know that when he went to Beds to his new novice owner that a girl was helping him with Prince. I understand he was kicked in the ribs/belly as he wouldnt stand still to be mounted which is a baby thing IMO. God knows what else they put him through, but he is very wary of a leg coming towards him as well as a raised hand
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I will try to get details of Beds and PM you.
 
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