Behavioural - Last chance for him, can HHO please help Prince?

Hi
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Hi TSH. He has had 6 weeks off due to his teeth and has chilled out with the herd and all his friends.

He will be rugged up tonight with a roller and pad over his rug to see how he behaves.

I cant emphasise enough that we have been so gentle with him and his education and only moved on to the next stage when he is ready and comfortable.

Cheryl did walk him around the school bareback in the summer on a lead rein with someone walking at the side.
At 7am this morning we had a play with him - she leant very gently over his back and he almost went into 'flip' mode. He is afraid of his own shadow.
 
This sort of thing drives me mad! He is suffering because of what a human and I use that term lightly in this instance, did to him. If the previous owner and friend kicked him in the ribs as previously said I would definitely get them x-rayed. They may have cracked one which has healed but with fragmentation that is still causing him pain if they stick into him. I really do praise you though for doing so much for him and I hope he comes right. If he is insured surely his owners will let him be x-rayed properly? Fingers crossed x
 
If he is so great to handle and everything could he not simply be a companion horse? When all the other options run out maybe its in his best interests to not try to tack him up and ride him. I agree with getting him x-rayed.
 
I suspect his problems could be a result of rough handling from short-tempered people with little knowledge or experience of handling and training youngsters. Whether it is physical or psychological, it would be a further tragedy if he ends up going from home to home because of his issues. I suspect if they have admitted to kicking and using a cattle crush, there might have been other instances of less than desirable 'training methods'. I am sure he is not the first horse to have been treated this way, but his reaction seems extreme after this time. I am wondering if there is remaining physical damage which causes pain when girthing etc. It could also be that he is very touchy about that area. Beano won't let anyone touch his tummy (must be a Sec D thing!); never has, not even when sedated. He'll cow kick if you try and touch his sheath, taking his temperature is not an option and no amount of desensitising has worked. It could just be a combination of unfortunate events that has resulted in Prince being the way he is.
 
It does sound like he is in pain. I don't know if this is any use to you but I have a friend who had a horse that was seriously 'cold backed', would freak out as soon as the girth was tightened. Eventually she took him to an osteopath (the same guy I use for my horses) who is excellent. He found that the horse had seriously damaged a muscle in it's chest, not sure exactly where but I think it connected rib to the sternum so whenever there was pressure put on the area (like the girth being tightened) the horse was in extreme pain. He diagnosed it and gave initial treatment and the horse then had further treatment with a local physio (osteo comes over from australia) and has vastly improved. She was put in foal (for other reasons) but they reckoned the break would do no harm to get rid of the problem from her head and will be restarted then when the foal is weaned.

Juat another possibility for you to think about, it sounds like you've covered everything else!
 
I will probably be shot down for saying this but....

Can you take him into a school or field on a long lunge line, and then put his saddle on, girth him up and let him buck and bronk to his hearts content. Once he realises that there is no way of getting the saddle/girth of he may begin to accept it.

I would obviously put brushing boots on all fours and over reach boots on the front. I would also make sure who ever has the lunge line is kitted out in body protector and hat.

It may sound a bit drastic but if there's no other choice......
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I think the issue is that you cant even get the saddle ON his back and done up in the first place??

TBH, Id go right back to basics as others have advised. Id probably start leaving an old saddle in his stable and putting his feed bucket right beside it etc. Then start to hold it while you're grooming him. Then slowly holding it above your head etc. as if you were thinking of putting on his back. Then gently put it on him just for a few seconds whilst seriously spoiling him with treats etc. And just start mounting up the time left on, then bring girth down etc. Just do one TINY thing at a time and ONLY move on once he was totally calm with the previous action.

He's only a 5yo so I think he could definately be "fixed". I would definately get him totally checked over by a back person though as he could be seriously cold backed. Id also be very careful that the saddle actually fitted him! Probably try and get a very lightweight one, even a racing type saddle at first?

I am always against putting them to sleep etc. especially when a human has caused his behaviour. Shame you're not closer, Id have him!
 
IMO, Id leave it totally alone with the saddle, just dont even try, and see what he was like with driving. I did this with Melly and shes a dream now. I know you said it wouldnt fit with his owner to drive him, but to be honest, if they are saying they are going to send him to a sale, do they really care that much anyway? How much do they want for him, I know someone who would give their eye teeth for a welsh D to drive.
 
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If you go on the intelligent horsemanship they have a list of recommended associates. Monty Roberts also has a website of his own. I'm sure there's a way to contact them through that.

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I'm (newly!) another advocate of IH. It's not on the same scale but I have been having real trouble with my horse - lack of respect, bargy, will mow you down if he wants to get past you to something else, and although he will load on a trailer 60% of the time, he wouldn't stay on. Nearly broke my ankle two weeks ago practising loading as he just didn't want to stay on trailer. I had a Kelly Marks RA out, practised some groundwork with dually halter before she came, and the RA worked wonders. I never thought I would be supporting the IH people as I've always dismissed it, but they really are worth talking to. I have been really impressed.

If you google Intelligent Horsemanship there is a list on there of the Recommended Associates in your area. And they weren't expensive either. Really worth chatting to.
 
Thanks again everyone.

Just got in from playing with Prince. We have, as someone suggested put an elasticated surcingle over his jarmies with a polypad underneath. He was absolutely fine, if not a little bewildered! After his session in the morning, he will be turned out with it on too.

Calzy - Thats very interesting about muscle damage. We had a chiro out initially who just said that he was tight over his back and one side of his neck. We are atm trying to find on recommendation a good physio in South Wales.

Horse_crazy 2 - Our trainer has been here today and he suggested this too, just saddling him up and lunging him, allowing him to go ballistic. I have mixed views on this after seeing him get away from his carer, tacked up and in hand walking to the school. He completely lost it and ran, bucking wildly and blindly and he didnt stop until he got outside his stable door where he stood trembling in a sweat looking totally bewildered. I havnt ruled this out though.

Magic_Magpie - From the beginning we have put the saddle in the stable, on the wall, floor, by his bucket etc. We are always aware of our body language when we are around him and move very slowly, avoiding eye contact. We have tried various saddles both leather and synthetic. My Isobell Werth went on him this morning and he was comfortable with it, but we didnt girth.

Rosehip - Driving was mentioned earlier by a couple of HHO'ers which was a great idea, however a girth would still be involved. If we could solve the girthing problem then riding wouldnt be a problem. But thanks for that.

chestnut cob - I have made notes of all the contact details of RA's. I too believe that this is the line to go down.

Our trainer today said that he would not have the patience and time for this and that he should be in a tin. This is a logical response and quite right in some ways - all problems would be solved. However, this is not the way Llwyncwn operates.

Thank you for the PMs and all suggestions, please keep them coming. Hoping to hear from Admin too as I have asked them for help.
 
I used to work somewhere that had a very big 17hh Selle Francais mare that was a pain in the backside to handle generally but was controllable with a dually headcollar or rope over her nose.
She was broken in as a 3/4 year old and was going really well but was never totally comfortable with the girth. When I started working there, it took 2 people to get a saddle on her in the stable. She had a bridle and a chifney on, and as soon as the girth was done up she would bronc, climb the walls and knock people flying. She would then eventually calm, at which point the door was opened and she would explode from the stable and be led to the school where she'd be led around for 10 minutes before she was calm enough to be mounted.

We spent a lot of time in the school with one person at her head and one gradually doing a roller up as she walked in small circles, but she would still leap and bronc on the initial first step after it was first put on. It was just a case of hanging onto her and bringing her round in small circles until she calmed and then doing it up again and again.

We eventually found with her that she was best if we stood her outside the school to tack her up. They had a sort of walkway/corral between the yard and the school. We would close all the gates and put the saddle on in there and do the girth up comfortably snug, with one person at her head and one doing the saddle. We had a scoop of food for the person at her head to hold to distract her and take her anger out on. We'd then open the gate in front of her and lead her into the school. Occasionally we'd have a big leap or a lurch forward, but she'd then be led for a 20m circle once or twice before the second person tightened her girth a bit (we used food again to distract her), she'd then do another circuit before tightening again etc.

She will now be tacked up in the stable, by one person, as long as the girth is tightened gradually and she is allowed to walk around each time it is tightened. She's not happy about it, but she lets it be done.

Don't know if that helps, PM me if you want.
 
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Calzy - Thats very interesting about muscle damage. We had a chiro out initially who just said that he was tight over his back and one side of his neck. We are atm trying to find on recommendation a good physio in South Wales.

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I would thoroughly recommend Paddy Davies who does mctimmony Paddy Davies Animal Spinal Therapist. McTimoney-Corley Therapist. Llanllwni, Carms. Tel:01570 480678. Mob:07818 210235.
or gwennan thomas but i don't think she would come as far as you
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Paddy is carms and she will go about an hour's drive
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I will ask around as I have a friend with a selection of misfits who might have some ideas
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What a fab post brightsyde, thank you for that. Was the mare ever sold on? Your story gives me great hope but would be interested to know if she was ever sold on or rehomed and how she reacted to this.

Law - Thanks for the numbers and PM. Comforting to know there is someone not too far away who may have some answers. We will ring. Nice to know its not only me who has the 'misfits'
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llwyncwn - the couple I was working for split up, this mare went to my boss, who is now further up north and I've been up to see her & the horses since. She's a very happy mare, just gets a bit grumpy when her girth is done up! She continued to improve in her new home, with the same owner but she'll never be sold because she's not trustworthy enough to tack up and handle. She's a very particular mare and it's a case of knowing her inside out. I could poss put you in touch with her owner. It was her and myself that worked on her together on a daily basis. I would offer to come and offer any advice but I'm now in a wheelchair and not much use to this sort of thing!
My old employer has a yard of her own......... let me have a word with her, would Prince's owner let him go away for a few weeks?
I am in NO WAY promising anything but I can certainly talk to her if you would like me to?
 
Just a thought....when the RA came out to me in the week she said they are still desperate for suitable horses for the Monty Roberts demos while he's in the UK (she asked if my horse was bad to load in a lorry as well as trailer, and if so could they use him as they couldn't find enough bad loaders). She mentioned they were working with a horse that bucked, I think it was when it was jumping, and thought they could solve it.

I would contact them and see if they would use him for a demo. Even if they don't, they'll be able to advise you and work with you.
 
What about advertising him for loan on the project horse website? You could be completely honest about him and his problems. You could also thoroughly vet anyone who was interested - maybe make it a condition they work with someone like a RA/Monty Roberts etc?

That would be better than going to an aution as at least you would have control over his future and could vet the person he was going to?
 
wouldn't MR's team want to be absolutely sure it was not a physical problem first? the worry about putting a saddle on and letting him just buck is that if it is a pain issue that isn't a kind way to go forward, nor is it going to build up his trust in people.
 
Morning guys
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We worked with him again this morning, exactly the same as yesterday. He was obviously happier this morning as he tucked into a hay net hanging in the barn. His massage lasted much longer today and while I was rubbing him all over with used numnahs he was happy for it to be left over his head so that he couldnt see anything! Again I put my synthetic saddle on his back minus the girth and we walked him about 20 yards with it on. Although he was still very jumpy, he was more relaxed when we gave him no eye contact and turned our shoulders away. If he did jump, we ignored it so as not to make a big deal out of his fears.

He has gone out to play with his friends with the elastic surcingle on over his rug and a polypad which he wore all night quite comfortably.

I have taken some pics of him but need hubby to download for me. Adam Sherriston is working with him tomorrow so I will take a video for you all to see his reaction.
 
Our RS had a pony in several months back. I forget the full story but from what I remember he had turned him self inside out a few times while being started and had been classed as dangerous.
RS owner basically put a leather roller on him and its stayed on for weeks..permenently (apart from grooming). He basically lived with it on, in the stable and out in the field.
He is now, several months on, a great riding pony and used in the school for the more experienced riders...
 
Don't give up!! I have a horse who developed a panic about his girth being done up. Entirely my fault, he was an experienced horse who I rushed tacking up one day after clipping ( he was very sensitive and an eejit to clip), he went into a panic and lost his footing and fell over in the tie up area, and when I untied him he scrambled about as if he was on ice and somersaulted out of the covered yard......he did this twice in two days, and I had to put rubber on the covered tie area as well.
He still does it if I'm not careful, and he can't be on anything but eath floors or rubber, any slightly slippy surface and he falls apart.
However, there is a huge degree of looking for back up reaction, ie if I react in a worried way, as I did in the beginning, it emphasises his fear, so now I just stand beside him until he stops reacting. It is a funny mix of him wanting to avoid what you want to do to him, being stroppy and then panicking.
This may sound strange, but the 'I don't like this' behaviour will suddenly turn into them scaring themselves as their actions to avoid something they don't want to do create other problems. Horses are not bright enough to figure that a minor saying no will automatically escalate into a disaster if they repeat the pattern. I'm not explaining this very well, but they are their own worst enemies. What you need to do is break the cycle of association, so that what you do is not followed by something he can anticipate. You just need to think outside the box a bit.
There is a major acupuncture point, nerve junction box (my words!) fairly near the girth where the foot would go when mounting. If that was unwittingly pushed too hard with a saddle on, he may have experienced a degree of discomfort, and been panicked by that. It might even be worth finding a masseur (Shiatsu) or a chiro who would understand the impact of that kind of pressure and would work with him so it becomes a pleasant not scary sensation. Or at least desensitizes him to it.
This is the best link I could find to show you what I mean, but it's not a very big picture. You can see the amount of points affected by the girth area.
http://www.lhasaoms.com/Equine_Acupressure_Meridian_Chart-149-1342-page.html
Don't dwell too much on what caused it, he's beyond that now, you need to read him as he reacts, and try and think on your feet with him.
This is all just a suggestion, I'm not always very conventional how I approach things.........
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Have you thought of breaking him to harness first? Not necessarily with a cart but pulling something like a tyre or small log? You will be able to school him in an outline and strengthen his back.

I have two Shayga Mares from Hungarian National Stud at Babolna. They break mares and filies to harness first and saddle the following year. They say filies are not strong enough for saddle at four and benefit from time in harness.

One of my mares was doing 20km a day as a pair or fivesome but very green with a saddle. She was as good as gold being harnessed but appalling to saddle up, attempting to bite and even turning her heels on me on occassion.

I have another horse who is brilliant in harness but used to dump everyone at his old yard - which is why I bought him. He is now great as a riding horse but loves, loves, loves the cart.
 
OK, I had a horse with exactly the same problem (Long story, I bought him to stop him being PTS). I sent him to a professional to be retrained, giving a full history and eventually we found him a home with a job with an owner who understook his issues and he is doing OK.

Basically, this horse was cold backed - and had suffered pain and had learnt to bronc if he was put in a situation he didn't like.

The trainer worked him very hard on the lunge for 2 weeks (jumping on lunge & all sorts) and kept him on discipline programme to let him know he was subservient in the 'herd' (feeding him last, always led on a control halter ie complete discipline in horse language), then one day rode him. He will always have to be lunged (or warmed up) before being ridden and will have to be owned by a professional, not a soppy horse owner like me, but it worked.

If you couldn;t afford a trainer, could try this and then put a 'dummy' on the horse on the lunge (then you can let him buck it out without hurting you). The only thing is dont stint on the time and work the horse hard on the lunge for a week or so prior, just to be safe - it will also make the horse feel secure if he knows his place.

I found the trainer by contacting the local racing yard - he was fabulously experienced with backing and retraining racehorses and I knew he would be prepared to take the tough option if he thought there was no hope.
Good luck!!! It can be solved.
 
Thank you canteron, thats really interesting to know how you got to the bottom of your TBs issues.

We have spent a couple of hours this afternoon with Prince and will do a post tomorrow with an update. It has been a very emotionally draining day, but positive too.

Thank you for your reply x
 
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