Best horse and hound article ever!

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Darlabean

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“Owners continue to overfeed, under-exercise and generally pamper their equines like pets”. Ok, depends on the horses needs, for the scornful, but what a refreshing article!
 
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Those were the words of Mr Owers of WHW, not the article writer.

I get what he was saying and there certainly is an important point to make there, but IME the reasons that horse owners sleepwalk into creating an unhappy/unhealthy horse are rather more complex than these sound bites make out. He accuses the general population of overfeeding and underworking in one breath and then of over competing horses in the next.....

And as for accusing horse owners of 'treating horses as pets' - well it isn't a great choice of words from an organisation that relies on rehoming the majority of their horses as pets.

An information leaflet or similar to distribute to livery yards and owners describing small tweaks to horse management that can build up to a massive difference in horse happiness and welfare, would perhaps be more useful....?
 
I was put off by his apparent disapproval of owners who favour no bits or shoes.
What's so wrong with that, assuming the horse is comfortable without?
Horses were not designed to wear bits or shoes
 
cauda equina said:
I was put off by his apparent disapproval of owners who favour no bits or shoes.
What's so wrong with that, assuming the horse is comfortable without?
Horses were not designed to wear bits or shoes
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So was I. And I have two pet ponies and two pet cats. They are happy, healthy animals, so what is wrong with that?
 
I kind of get where he’s coming from in relation to the over-feeding, over-rugging and under-exercising issue. I am on a big livery yard and I would say that 75% of the horses on that yard are exercised 2 days a week or less, and that exercise is far from strenuous! I also see those same horses in all manner of heavy rugs. On the whole, the owners tend to be first time owners, who also seem to have under-estimated the amount of time required to keep horses, especially on DIY.

However, the sentiment could perhaps have been better phrased and I can’t help thinking that WHW could expend its energies more productively in an education exercise, rather than criticism. Perhaps an education campaign run in partnership with riding schools and livery yards about exactly what owning a horse entails and the level of commitment and dedication. Plus, as DabDab suggests, an information leaflet about keeping them healthy.
 
Well done to Mr Owers for stating the very obvious modern problem of keeping horses as pets. Cruelty comes in many forms, you don't have to starve or beat a horse to be mistreating it.
 
Cortez said:
Well done to Mr Owers for stating the very obvious modern problem of keeping horses as pets. Cruelty comes in many forms, you don't have to starve or beat a horse to be mistreating it.
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What exactly are you classing as a 'pet'?
I consider my horses pets - they do not earn their keep, I work to earn money to keep them for my pleasure. They are ridden or otherwise exercised and have nutrition that meets their needs. They are healthy and exhibit no unhappy behaviours - you or mr owers are welcome to come and inspect....?
 
Flicker said:
I kind of get where he’s coming from in relation to the over-feeding, over-rugging and under-exercising issue. I am on a big livery yard and I would say that 75% of the horses on that yard are exercised 2 days a week or less, and that exercise is far from strenuous! I also see those same horses in all manner of heavy rugs. On the whole, the owners tend to be first time owners, who also seem to have under-estimated the amount of time required to keep horses, especially on DIY.

However, the sentiment could perhaps have been better phrased and I can’t help thinking that WHW could expend its energies more productively in an education exercise, rather than criticism. Perhaps an education campaign run in partnership with riding schools and livery yards about exactly what owning a horse entails and the level of commitment and dedication. Plus, as DabDab suggests, an information leaflet about keeping them healthy.
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Over the years, about 30, I have been on five big livery yards, and I can probably only think of five people that actually rode more than twice a week on a regular basis, and the same five people rode for more than an hour. Very few people now have any idea the amount of exercise a horse is capable of doing or needs to maintain a level of fitness to compete, or work hard when needed.
For me what seems to have changed is that horses live out less, and are rugged almost in some cases all year round, even when the weather is mild.
Why is a rug a fashion item that has to be changed each season? If you say a horses does not need a rug you are looked on as if you are abusive.
Then there is the whole feed industry that has spent millions marketing feed that most horses do not need, and has turned out in the long run to be bad for them.
The worst video I have seen on FB is a small foal, being bathed in a sink, like its a poodle. The amount of people who thought that was cute was extraordinary, they could see nothing wrong. The horse as fashion accessory taken to the next level.
 
Keeping a horse as a pet isn't necessarily cruel. Lots can't be ridden due to injury or age and it would be seriously detrimental to their health and wellbeing were they expected to. I think what he's referring to is mollycoddling them and treating them as fragile when let's face it they are 500kg of beast that evolved to survive on Asian steppes... However, you couldn't throw most horses out in Mongolia and not expect them to suffer!

Good ownership isn't about competing lots, about following a particular method; it's about doing what's right for your individual animal. For instance the remark on those with barefoot /bitless horses irked me a bit...not every horse likes a bit. Not every horse likes bitless. Not every horse is comfortable without shoes, not every horse is comfortable with them. And a truly good owner respects that their horse isn't going to neatly conform to their own preferences, and will treat them according to what's best for them: I personally do think some owners anthropomorphise too much...
 
The thing which got me was people not listening to vets and farriers. I have had to change farriers twice this year due to damage they have done, and one was recommended by a local vet. I am glad some things have changed, and that includes questioning people and going elsewhere if you aren't happy.
 
Without being overly defensive or scrutinising his choice of words, I think the key messages he puts over are probably right. There is too much laminitis still, particularly with all the new information and knowledge we have about the disease which could be used to prevent it. I know because I did it myself when I was new to horse ownership, my pony got laminitis and I felt terrible about it. I have learnt loads since from magazines and on this forum and I think all he was saying is that we need to keep spreading this message to prevent obesity in our horses. Personally I believe part of the problem is due to over commercialisation of the horse supplies market where we are inundated with lovely new rug designs, a massive choice of different feeds and also the feeling that if we don't provide our horses with these lovely things, they are somehow missing out.

An organisation such as WHW should be at the centre of distributing these messages which is what I think this speech is aiming to do. Yes he used the words pets in a slightly negative context and made a few other remarks which people are going to react to, but overall I'm glad that someone is speaking out about laminitis and the horrible suffering it causes.

My horses are pets by the way, and I'm very proud of that :)
 
honetpot said:
Over the years, about 30, I have been on five big livery yards, and I can probably only think of five people that actually rode more than twice a week on a regular basis, and the same five people rode for more than an hour. Very few people now have any idea the amount of exercise a horse is capable of doing or needs to maintain a level of fitness to compete, or work hard when needed.
For me what seems to have changed is that horses live out less, and are rugged almost in some cases all year round, even when the weather is mild.
Why is a rug a fashion item that has to be changed each season? If you say a horses does not need a rug you are looked on as if you are abusive.
Then there is the whole feed industry that has spent millions marketing feed that most horses do not need, and has turned out in the long run to be bad for them.
The worst video I have seen on FB is a small foal, being bathed in a sink, like its a poodle. The amount of people who thought that was cute was extraordinary, they could see nothing wrong. The horse as fashion accessory taken to the next level.
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That’s dreadful. What start in life is that foal getting??

I’m all for seeing a horse as a pet, mine are as much part of the family as our cats. But, as a conscientious pet owner, I work around the needs of my animals not the other way round.

Like you, I worry about rugs and feed. The number of supplements in our feed room is eye opening. Many are for gut health and calming properties - both of which point to something amiss with the horses’ routines.

And, in relation to rugs... I ride for a friend whose horse is on full livery on a local yard. On a number of occasions I have arrived to ride to find her sweating under a heavy rug. The yard staff rug for the night at around 4pm so they can finish at 5. Another example of shoehorning our horses’ welfare around our needs. Another good friend of mine worked on a stud / dealer / producers yard in the 70’s. Their evening shift finished at 8pm with a final skip and hay / rug check. The morning shift then started at 5am.

If our livery yards can’t commit to that level of cover for stabled horses, as owners we need to be prepared to ‘top up’ the time ourselves. My horse is on part livery but I am up every night to ride, groom, check feet, and also to check hay and water and rugs. I know owners who haven’t been up literally for weeks.
 
My horse is a pet, but she is regularly exercised, I have a trainer and weekly lessons (working towards competing in dressage). She is fed just hay and a non mollassed, non cereal feed, she has daily turnout and grooming. The fact that I view her first as a pet does not mean she is maltreated. I find this quite ridiculous.
 
It's not the best article I've ever read. It touches on some salient points but is hypocritical - poorly researched and hard to take seriously in all honesty.

The only bit in there worth quoting in the "over-rugging" because seeing how many fat cobs are walking around in rugs, I'm inclined to agree. There are more constructive ways to to explain how rugging works and has been done well before.

In a nutshell, unless it's old, decrepit or a fully clipped racer or eventer, keep the rug in the bag.
 
There was some old footage from 1900 of busy London streets in the Daily Fail this week. I found myself studying the condition of the carriage horses. With the exception of a couple of very well-to-do carriage horses who were well covered and clearly didn't do much work, most of the working horses (fit and well) were in 'hard' condition, which most these days would call out as too thin because they don't know any better.

I agree with honeypot. Most don't have any idea how much work a horse is capable of.
 
tallyho! said:
In a nutshell, unless it's old, decrepit or a fully clipped racer or eventer, keep the rug in the bag.
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I'd like to add it if it's grey to that list!

I've got one WHW pony now, just starting in roads aged 5 into a ridden career. We have just rehomed our mule from them (through them, they know about It!) He potentially will be a pet his whole life.
 
I basically agree with the principle of what (I think) he's saying. That said, I don't think it's hugely well worded or particularly appropriate given his position - there is far too much room for interpretation, and misinterpretation - the "pet" comment, in context, is clearly a reference to over-feeding and under-exercising, not the concept of keeping a non-working animal. I do think the comment about blaming behaviours on the horse is very relevant though.

The trouble is, it's all very well saying it would be better to educate than criticise. That's great - but how many articles have been published doing just that? How many years have all the major charities been banging on about the obesity crisis and putting out condition scoring leaflets? And still we are in the middle of an equine obesity crisis, because people don't believe it applies to them. People are incredibly good at cognitive dissonance - believing contradictory things at the same time - like "fat horses are a welfare issue" and "my horse isn't the problem, he enjoys his lickits and is just a nice round cob". People ignore things which do not fit their own bias, and they fail to recognise obesity in their own animals (and children - and selves). It is a huge problem, which cannot be tackled by education alone - because people are not always capable of taking on that information and applying it to their own animals.


zaminda said:
The thing which got me was people not listening to vets and farriers. I have had to change farriers twice this year due to damage they have done, and one was recommended by a local vet. I am glad some things have changed, and that includes questioning people and going elsewhere if you aren't happy.
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I too have a horse who is recovering from the "efforts" of two highly recommended farriers. I say this a lot, but expert advice is only meaningful when the expert is actually good at their job. And, even then, people make mistakes... Questioning your experts is a good thing - within reason.
 
I always giggle at these threads. I have both sides of the “abusive owner” covered. One is rugged up with a fashionable new one bought this season, fed on mix with this and that in it, shoe all round and ridden approx 4 times a week an hour at a time and not very hard as in not eventing but a decent scooping or hour long hack (but said Horse is also near 20) then out 24/7 in summer getting fat and having a less amount of work then.

Then I have my Home herd of minis who are all out living wild 24/7 with no feed and rarely looked at bar daily checks and appointments in winter - in summer usually in being conditioned to show and clipped and rugged. By conditioned I mean worked and toned up, not fed up - but fed something rich in linseed and protein to add some shine and life in the ring.

Funny though they all seem happy and relaxed, rather than abused.
 
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In response to JFTD, I agree education doesn't seem to be making enough impact, so what can people who care about horses do instead? Reporting severe cases to charities of course, but what else is there...maybe feed companies and rug companies should be made to show pictures of laminitic horses on their labels...taking a similar line to cigarette packet labelling...instead of beautiful condition animals on their packaging..

Is so difficult and expensive to change an established culture and this is what these horse charities are facing with the obesity crisis.
 
WandaMare said:
In response to JFTD, I agree education doesn't seem to be making enough impact, so what can people who care about horses do instead? Reporting severe cases to charities of course, but what else is there...maybe feed companies and rug companies should be made to show pictures of laminitic horses on their labels...taking a similar line to cigarette packet labelling...instead of beautiful condition animals on their packaging..

Is so difficult and expensive to change an established culture and this is what these horse charities are facing with the obesity crisis.
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I think you are right about the horse "culture". Being on this forum is often bemusing, I live in Ireland where horses are kept in a rather more robust fashion than seems to be the case in your part of the world, and I also spend a lot of my horse work time in Spain where things are different again.

People are taking umbrage at the "pet" thing, but I think that is really at the root of the problem. I have pets too, they are spoiled, live in the house, and are kept purely for their companionship: they are not horses (and incidentally they are not fat - can't understand fat dogs/cats either). The horses live outside, work for a living and are not kept for their "cuteness" value. They are, really, agricultural animals to me. Doesn't mean I'm not fond of them (I'm fond of the cow too), but they are not there for cuddles.
 
Whoops, better tell my 'pet' pony he needs to start earning his keep, and that his nice warm rugs will be removed.....
Or I could just continue to look after him without expecting anything of him as I have done since he was retired aged 10 and make sure he wants for nothing, without fussing about anyone else's opinion!
He is rugged, weight kept down using a muzzle/not much feed, and happy as anything. I don't think there needs to be a dichotomy between 'pet' horses and 'working' horses. Both my ponies are both of those things-they will work while they can and are happy to, but they are more than just working animals to me, and if they can't be ridden, will continue to receive the same level of care and attention. My little retired one also happens to be very cute, as an added bonus.
 
NinjaPony said:
Whoops, better tell my 'pet' pony he needs to start earning his keep, and that his nice warm rugs will be removed.....
Or I could just continue to look after him without expecting anything of him as I have done since he was retired aged 10 and make sure he wants for nothing, without fussing about anyone else's opinion!
He is rugged, weight kept down using a muzzle/not much feed, and happy as anything. I don't think there needs to be a dichotomy between 'pet' horses and 'working' horses. Both my ponies are both of those things-they will work while they can and are happy to, but they are more than just working animals to me, and if they can't be ridden, will continue to receive the same level of care and attention. My little retired one also happens to be very cute, as an added bonus.
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You're an experienced horse owner so you don't need to fuss about anyone's opinion.

I don't think the article was criticising all people who own horses as pets, the context was more about overfeeding and overrugging which I would guess is more of a risk within the category of people who keep ponies as pets. Horses who have been purchased to do a serious job are more likely to be doing a significant amount of exercise (although I am not saying that people who buy horses as pets don't do much exercise, of course lots of them do).

I'm glad the article has raised a bit of controversy anyway, its even better for publicity!
 
Cortez said:
I think you are right about the horse "culture". Being on this forum is often bemusing, I live in Ireland where horses are kept in a rather more robust fashion than seems to be the case in your part of the world, and I also spend a lot of my horse work time in Spain where things are different again.

People are taking umbrage at the "pet" thing, but I think that is really at the root of the problem. I have pets too, they are spoiled, live in the house, and are kept purely for their companionship: they are not horses (and incidentally they are not fat - can't understand fat dogs/cats either). The horses live outside, work for a living and are not kept for their "cuteness" value. They are, really, agricultural animals to me. Doesn't mean I'm not fond of them (I'm fond of the cow too), but they are not there for cuddles.
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I have owned/kept many horses that were for the purpose of making money. I now keep horses with no intention of them earning a living. My brain did not fall out in between owning those two categories and render me incapable of basic horsemanship.

The problem is largely inexperience and lack of knowledge of what is normal and healthy, combined (as JFTD pointed out), with those who are blind because they do not want to see.

The culture on an individual livery yard has a lot to do with it - often you will find yards where almost every horse is 'unsound' in either mind or body, and then other yards where the opposite is true, despite the fact that both contain mainly DIY liveries.

If organisations such as WHW want to improve the situation then they have to get inside the livery yard cultures. The amount you can do from the outside is exceptionally limited.

Sweeping generalisations and insults will very rarely cause people to change their behaviour - that's basic human psychology that I would expect most adults to have grasped.
 
I think it's also with pointing out that overfeeding/overrugging is not a problem exclusive to inexperienced owners-some of the worst cases I've found of that have been on professional showing yards.. who are not keeping horses as pets!
 
NinjaPony said:
I think it's also with pointing out that overfeeding/overrugging is not a problem exclusive to inexperienced owners-some of the worst cases I've found of that have been on professional showing yards.. who are not keeping horses as pets!
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Ah but showing is in a league of its own! They don't abide by anyone else's rules! Just their own!
 
No one likes criticism. Look at the responses from individuals who pick on certain elements (bitless/barefoot etc). I too brindle at some of the comments "pet" got to me. I like to compete and train. I have sold on horses I didn't click with or whom couldn't do what I wanted to do. I have kept 2 horses in full retirement till they had to be PTS aged 27 and 31 respectively. I have had my heart broken at losing the horse of a lifetime to Uvietis aged 7. Does this mean they are/were pets? I enjoy he the challenging aspects of horsecare and the fact that you just don't stop learning but not everyone does.
 
WandaMare said:
In response to JFTD, I agree education doesn't seem to be making enough impact, so what can people who care about horses do instead?
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If I knew that, I'd probably be doing something useful with my time instead of bickering on here ;) I raise the point that it isn't enough to educate, in response to previous suggestions that WHW would be better to put out an informative leaflet. I think that perspective is naive - WHW have done informative leaflets to death, and will continue to do so, I'm sure. No amount of quiet provision of information will challenge some of the endemic issues in the equine industry - and I'm not really talking about owners. I think this speech was aimed more at encouraging those involved in welfare professionally to challenge certain misconceptions in themselves, and in those around them, than at making the average horse owner feel bad.

I think, at our level, all you can do is treat your own horses as well as you can (in accordance with science, common sense and all those lacking areas- while being open to new information too), and when you're in a position to offer advice, you do so accurately, clearly and tactfully - which is easier said than done. The fact that people are challenged on this forum - although not often tactfully - is a good thing for changing at least some perspectives (most folk I know on here, myself included, have been educated by being here). I wouldn't underestimate the value of that.

maybe feed companies and rug companies should be made to show pictures of laminitic horses on their labels...taking a similar line to cigarette packet labelling...instead of beautiful condition animals on their packaging..
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Interesting idea. I think for that to happen, there would need to be widespread (beyond this forum, across the entire industry - especially the veterinary industry) acknowledgement that there is actually a problem with sugary feeds and how they are marketed. Much like smoking, that may take a while...

But actually, I do think that's part of what was said in this speech - being open to scientific revelations that do not sit easily with the received wisdom. If everyone in the industry (as opposed to owners at grass roots level) accepted new information as it becomes supported by scientific data (or indeed, doesn't), the quality and uniformity of advice given to the owners themselves would be far greater. The trouble, currently, is that not all vets, farriers, physios, instructors, YOs (or any other trusted equine "professional") agree that commercial feeds (/over-rugging / obesity) are a problem (or perhaps they are not prepared to stick their necks on the line and say that to their owners).
 
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